Carmack on DOOM 3

John Carmack Speaks on Doom 3 on GameSpot has a couple of tidbits gleaned from a talk given by id's lead programmer, saying the ability to save the game anywhere on a level is being reexamined, that human characters in the game will be animated with the assistance of motion capture (while most of the monsters will still be hand-animated), and he is struggling with the decision over whether to allow shadows to be turned off in the game, since they are so important to the drama, but they also represent half the engine's rendering efforts. There is also another article on Carmack's talk on GameSpy.
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121 Replies. 7 pages. Viewing page 4.
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61.
 
Re: Save games
May 15, 2003, 21:10
61.
Re: Save games May 15, 2003, 21:10
May 15, 2003, 21:10
 
First of all let me just say that I absolutely abhor the "Limited Save Anywhere" concept used by several recent action/realism FPSs such as SoF2, IGI2 and Hitman 2. Instead of a quick, passive press of a button, the process of saving in these games becomes an annoyingly large thorn on the side of gameplay.

Gameplay is almost entirely centered around the "Number of Saves" and how best to use them with attainable threat information. Will it be a tough firefight around the next corner? Maybe I should save. How far away am I from my final objective? Maybe I should save. If I die here, how difficult would it be to repeat from the last save? Maybe I should save. I've been given a map of the entire level, at what points should I save? Instead of taking your focus away from saving and into more tactical decisions, this system actually emphasizes the unrealistically strategic relevance of saving.

Having said that, I don't think the "Unlimited Save Anywhere" concept works well for the linear, heavily scripted, horror FPS DOOM 3 is so far purported as being. Since the game is linear, the number of ways you can complete a mission are intentionally limited by the devs. So the excuse of trying different things just doesn't work as well as it would in a not-so-linear FPS. The memory of tension and drama a particular scripted scene is supposed to have invoked will too often be erased by seeing it just about a few dozen times in a row (For various possible reasons. Personally I'd repeatedly QuickLoad my way through such a scene with as little health lost.) The hand-crafted pacing of the game is thus lost akin to a badly edited movie. Lastly, what inspires horror and fear more than what you take in through your senses? The presence of brutal consequences of course. Something the Unlimited system was purposely built to tear down.

Ideally IMO, DOOM 3 would implement a flexible middleground such as the "Save at Predetermined Points" system used in Mafia and many console games or perhaps a combination of save systems such as the "Save at Predetermined Points" + "Limited Save Anywhere" systems used in Vietcong. Since little is known about DOOM 3's gameplay other than the aformentional generalizations, it would be arrogant of me to suggest a specific and detailed implementation. Suffice to say I am pleased that Carmack is at least thinking about these things.
"Nothing livens up a robotic hymn of doom more than an amazing pair of jugs." - Brak
60.
 
Re: Doom 3 to have no multiplayer
May 15, 2003, 20:47
60.
Re: Doom 3 to have no multiplayer May 15, 2003, 20:47
May 15, 2003, 20:47
 
I think the Inquirer writer is huffing gas. The talk he's covering is the exact same talk covered by the Gamespy and Gamespot articles, and yet neither one of them mention the "no multiplayer" thing (which is a pretty substantial piece of news). And frankly I trust both of those sites more than the Inquirer.

59.
 
No subject
May 15, 2003, 20:19
59.
No subject May 15, 2003, 20:19
May 15, 2003, 20:19
 
Do note that the article did NOT say what save method would be used:
Carmack said that the team is debating the way that Doom 3's save system will work. He didn't give any specific clues but said that it may be significantly different from what players are used to in previous id games.

That's all that was said; the rest was speculation. There are a number of alternatives they could opt for (including the standard "save anywhere", as I would imagine that the game is fully capable of saving anywhere (hence the cause for debate at this relatively late stage of development -- I understand the game engine has been complete for quite a long time).

58.
 
Re: Save games
May 15, 2003, 20:18
58.
Re: Save games May 15, 2003, 20:18
May 15, 2003, 20:18
 
Me thinks you guys are a bunch of wussies. So what if you can't save games?
This comment was edited on May 16, 02:46.
57.
 
Re: Save games
May 15, 2003, 19:53
57.
Re: Save games May 15, 2003, 19:53
May 15, 2003, 19:53
 
"The only thing to consider is this:

-When games come out with save option, there is no outcry of "oh no, why is there a save option! The game is ruined!"
-When games come out with no save option, there is an outcry against it.
Just put the damn save option in and have done with it. Someone will make a trainer anyway."



Dafly: "Maybe giving the player the choice at the start of the game would be a solution. The nightmare difficulty could be the same as 'hard' but with limited saves. That way you could call your mate a woofter if he didn't finish Doom3 on the nightmare setting (how its supposed to be played) etc etc."

da-fly put it best when he suggested making it a choice at the games start. That way, they satisfy everyone's style.
I'd prolly start with game-saves anywhere, then when i finish the game i can *graduate* to nightmare diff.

Cheers,
<wasp>


56.
 
Re:
May 15, 2003, 19:29
56.
Re: May 15, 2003, 19:29
May 15, 2003, 19:29
 
"THAT'S RIGHT!"

I remembered what I was going to say. thanks Xombie

The problem at id is when you have a major turnover of key figures in a idea shop the orginal plans no longer are the same and the company becomes diluted if not dilussional.

it's obvious id is really hurt without the original magic it had.. all the egos have left. So now the air has been released. id is just a shell of what it was. It took a couple of years. but too bad we weren't getting the straight story from the x-members.

Now id has to resort to piecing out the talent to other developers because they don't have the inhouse talent. Carmack is but one man... if he leaves. id is history.

Geeez my cold is kicking my ass I haven't been able to work for 3 days

Valve has really rallied its resourses and has no pressure to yield results... I hope some of you have watched the video interview


-The Dude-

Vic B.

This comment was edited on May 15, 19:41.
-The Dude-

Vic B.
55.
 
Re:
May 15, 2003, 19:10
55.
Re: May 15, 2003, 19:10
May 15, 2003, 19:10
 
DOOM IS DOOMED
*ahem*... I told you so.

I'll *MAYBE* buy DOOM III to complete the trilogy. But, it's going straight to the litter bin when HalfLife 2 hits the shelves.
Even better: Half Life 2 is coming out in September, and everyone who's spoken with the developers say they're perfectly confident with that date.
Doom 3 is tentatively set back to late December, if that, due to John's preoccupation with his little flying machines.
Xombie x0mbie x0mb|e Xombie
54.
 
Re: Doom 3 to have no multiplayer
May 15, 2003, 19:06
54.
Re: Doom 3 to have no multiplayer May 15, 2003, 19:06
May 15, 2003, 19:06
 
take anything from theinquirer with a grain of salt.

(not that im refutting your point xombie, its just that i dont trust the source)

Doin' it Big
53.
 
Re:
May 15, 2003, 18:58
53.
Re: May 15, 2003, 18:58
May 15, 2003, 18:58
 
The skeletal system is something you apply to all 3D models so they will have limitations to their movement that way an object doesn't do something too unnatural (according to the way we experience kinetics).

Someone coined it as:"The Rag Doll System" per the human body being manipulated by the gravity weapon.

Either way a matress behaves like a matress, an animal behaves like an animal, and a chair behaves like a chair.
The deformation is based on other variables of that object so it will interact with a separate physic engine.

and Xombie? Not to seem like I am totally turning my back on the light of Doom III. "BUT!"after viewing all the Half-Life 2 movies and downloading the 500Mb interview with Gabe and Jay I am just overwelmed byt the leaps forward VALVE made innovative and technologically. No two people are going to have the same experience with the character AI. Their engine is shrek in a Bottle



DOOM IS DOOMED when this came out sorry guys. id has truely been defanged if all id has to offer is a little shadow and light. Forget that.. The Half Life 2 engine has an AI system that will overshadow the DOOM III engine in it's best days and the modeling system is just unreal.

I'll *MAYBE* buy DOOM III to complete the trilogy. But, it's going straight to the litter bin when HalfLife 2 hits the shelves.

HALF LIFE 2 is were it's at. John had better get back to making rocket engines... maybe he'll win $10 million


as for comparisons my analogy is Doom III is a short story rip-off "The Thing" and "It's alive" horror trip

and HalfLife 2 is like an Isaac Asimov or Ray Bradbury novel Sci-Fi.. fully realized


-The Dude-

Vic B.

"tis a sad day and glorious one"

This comment was edited on May 15, 19:15.
-The Dude-

Vic B.
52.
 
Doom 3 to have no multiplayer
May 15, 2003, 18:41
52.
Doom 3 to have no multiplayer May 15, 2003, 18:41
May 15, 2003, 18:41
 
Proof that I'm not the one raining on id fans' parade, Carmack is:

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=9517
Xombie x0mbie x0mb|e Xombie
51.
 
Re:
May 15, 2003, 18:25
51.
Re: May 15, 2003, 18:25
May 15, 2003, 18:25
 
Actually the problem isn't the collision detection nor the skeletal systems used during game interaction. The problem is when you have a physics engine interpreting movement and contact, what happens is the developers have not created what's called a surface dection and deformation engine to handle the variables based on every point of a wall...
Doesn't HL2 have a surface deformation engine in it, though? That's like, one of the first things they showed in the physics video.
Xombie x0mbie x0mb|e Xombie
50.
 
Re: saves
May 15, 2003, 17:54
50.
Re: saves May 15, 2003, 17:54
May 15, 2003, 17:54
 
You're right about that dude "MyrealName"

after downloading a few tid bits from Gamespot I have my choices lined up

Doom III
HALFLIFE 2
Hidden & Dangerous 2

The Sims 2 (which looks awesome even if it's a girls game... you fellas need to check out the video)

Commando 3
MGS:Twin snakes
Call of Cthulhu
Duke Nukem "HA HA HA HA!"

the least of my worries is John Carmack back peddling with id shortcomings

This comment was edited on May 15, 19:05.
-The Dude-

Vic B.
49.
 
Re: saves
May 15, 2003, 17:47
49.
Re: saves May 15, 2003, 17:47
May 15, 2003, 17:47
 
Hrm. Ok now this is troubling.

Taking away my ability to save when I choose to is a major no-no. That's making me play the game the way the designer insists I do - not the way I want to. That doesn't endear a game to a player.

Well, if worse comes to worst, I'll just play the version someone edits to *allow* saving anywhere That should take about... 15 minutes after release, to develop?

And if not, and if it destroys the gameplay experience, I'll just play something else. There's plenty to choose from.


48.
 
Re:
May 15, 2003, 17:45
48.
Re: May 15, 2003, 17:45
May 15, 2003, 17:45
 
Hey Creston,

that was a pretty cool interpretation ..

But, I'll help you out on your analysis:

Actually the problem isn't the collision detection nor the skeletal systems used during game interaction. The problem is when you have a physics engine interpreting movement and contact, what happens is the developers have not created what's called a surface dection and deformation engine to handle the variables based on every point of a wall...

example: let's say a wall is 64x64 cubic feet. Each granular particle (or for arguments sake each 1X1 block that) needs to be accounted for as well the brick makes up calculations for the space it occupies. In addition what it's assignment will be as a position/point for the game engine. If the model comes in contact with the wall and the code doesn't interpret the instructions currectly.. look out "PHILIDELPHIA EXPERIMENT":)


That's why every once in a while you will get the ocassional merge or clipping. It's alot of calculations that must occur to know exactly at what point the model is occupying in the static environment.

This comment was edited on May 15, 18:00.
-The Dude-

Vic B.
47.
 
Re:
May 15, 2003, 17:38
47.
Re: May 15, 2003, 17:38
May 15, 2003, 17:38
 
I'm not exactly the whizzkid on this, so forgive me if I'm wrong, but it was my understanding that the reason we have clipping problems in games is because the engine only looks at the skeleton of a model, not the model itself.
If that were the case, though, then there wouldn't be clipping in HL2, due to the muscle system.
Xombie x0mbie x0mb|e Xombie
46.
 
Re:
May 15, 2003, 17:09
46.
Re: May 15, 2003, 17:09
May 15, 2003, 17:09
 
And unless I'm mistaken, clipping has to do with collision programming, not the animation system

I'm not exactly the whizzkid on this, so forgive me if I'm wrong, but it was my understanding that the reason we have clipping problems in games is because the engine only looks at the skeleton of a model, not the model itself. This is done so that they can use one skeleton and builds tons of different (obviously similarly shaped) models around it without having to actually implement all those models as moveable / physical objects.

Because the engine doesn't actually "see" the model when it calculates collission, that's why you get clipping where heads stick through walls, guns stick through doors etc. Note that for damage done to the model, they use an extended "box", if you will, around the skeleton (not the model) to determine if the skeleton gets hit or not.
I'm not quite sure why such a box approach wouldn't actually work for collission as well. Sure it wouldn't be perfect (square box doesn't exactly look real for collission), but it would sure look a damn sight better than all this Feet in Feet, Heads Through Walls stuff.

Creston


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45.
 
Re: Blaaa...
May 15, 2003, 16:56
45.
Re: Blaaa... May 15, 2003, 16:56
May 15, 2003, 16:56
 
ROFL thats awesome! haha

44.
 
Blaaa...
May 15, 2003, 16:18
44.
Blaaa... May 15, 2003, 16:18
May 15, 2003, 16:18
 
Both sites are blocked by my company.... anyone else have this problem?

Hehe...

Your organization prefers that you not view this site during core hours. It fits into the following filtering category(ies) that your organization has chosen to block: Violence

43.
 
Re: Save games
May 15, 2003, 16:10
43.
Re: Save games May 15, 2003, 16:10
May 15, 2003, 16:10
 
Thats because you misread his post,..

http://www.poorintern.com
- The Voices In My Fruit Loops Tell Me I'm Special -
------
Diablo & Diablo 2 for the DS, it makes sense Blizzard!
42.
 
Re: Save games
May 15, 2003, 16:02
42.
Re: Save games May 15, 2003, 16:02
May 15, 2003, 16:02
 
Edit: nevermind...


This comment was edited on May 15, 17:00.
Xombie x0mbie x0mb|e Xombie
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