Thats a decent movie. Did you see him in Max? I wanted to go see Cusack in that but never got a chance.

Now what is mouse gestures dammit?


Dan
Intel 486SX, Trident video, 8MB RAM, 14" Generic Monitor, 100 MB HDD, Windows 3.11

Also jeff.... just let it go. Not everyone needs all the features that you say opera and mozilla have over IE.

Mostly I just don't want IE to win by default because it's already installed, so I'm trying to get people to see what other features are out there and avaialable, so they can decide.

But, good advice nevertheless.

<deep breath>
This is me breathing...

Anyone else love Grosse Pointe Blank?

Jeff

ok, what are these mouse gestures now?


Dan
Intel 486SX, Trident video, 8MB RAM, 14" Generic Monitor, 100 MB HDD, Windows 3.11

Hmmm majorgeeks, it doesn't really sound like I need tabbed browsing then. I like the windows taskbar better.

Also jeff.... just let it go. Not everyone needs all the features that you say opera and mozilla have over IE.



Dan
Intel 486SX, Trident video, 8MB RAM, 14" Generic Monitor, 100 MB HDD, Windows 3.11

What were you doing in IT at age 16?

I was coding in C/C++ for a Furniture Manufacturer who was developing point-of-sale devices for retail store floors. The only reason they took a chance on me (at 16) doing that type of job was that I was working there as a CAD Draftsman for their CNC router since I was 14, so they knew me. (And my dad got me that CAD job, so props to him.)

You can complain about their prices all you want,

Actually, I never mentioned prices. Since this was primarily a discussion of browsers (every one of which is currently free or nearly-free) that didn't enter into it.

I'm surprised a crusty old IT man, like yourself, hasn't fell into realism like I have. In IT, you use the best tool for the job, if you know what you are doing. Who gives a shit what brand it is?

I care, precisely because most people don't think about it. What opportunities are we missing out on because Microsoft's de-facto monopoly is preventing competition? Browsers are one of the areas that other companies have managed to give them some little run-for-their-money, and it's thanks to companies like Opera and Netscape that we have cool features like tabbed browsing and mouse gestures. MS tends to dominate an area, then sit comfortably there and do as little innovation as possible. Innovation requires competitive pressure.

That's why I care, and why I try to get others to care. Is it tiring "giving a shit?" Sure. But I'm not ready to give up and "fall into realism" just yet, thanks.

Having said all that, I'm not very strident about it. If you'll look back at my first few posts in this thread, you'll see that I was much more pro-Mozilla than anti-IE, until people started asking polite questions like, "Why don't you use IE?" I was just responding with my personal biases, not dictated what others should do.

I just wanted to make sure that people who like IE now aren't scared off by all the "IE will get you hacked" propaganda.

Well, how is it propaganda if it's just reporting facts? I've even posted links to the most recent major security flaw. How exactly have you refuted this? Or are you just saying that the chance of being affected by the holes is so small, there's no point in worrying? Like I said in an earlier post... one time affected is too many. Do whatever you’d like, but I don’t see any compelling reasons to take the chance.

I'm using Mozilla 1.3b right now, and I like it.

Yep... that's the first thing I said in this thread, and it was really my only point. Glad we kind of came around full circle there.

Jeff
Edit: replying to your edit


This comment was edited on Feb 19, 12:21.

It sounds like you and I have very similar backgrounds. What were you doing in IT at age 16?

Just goes to show that I will, and do, work with any browser. I have no reason to hate Microsoft. Frankly, the main reason they are attacked is because they are #1. Just like why the United States is verbally attacked by nearly every other country in the world. When you are on top, you are an easy target. You can complain about their prices all you want, but every other software company out there is doing the exact same thing. Have you looked at the prices of Macromedia stuff lately? Flash, which use to be a high $150, is now $499. They want like $450 for Dreamweaver now. If you want a support package, it can run you as high $20,000 per year.

I'm surprised a crusty old IT man, like youself, hasn't fallen into realism like I have. In IT, you use the best tool for the job, if you know what you are doing. Who gives a shit what brand it is?

The flaw in your argument with me is that you decided since I was defending IE, that I was trying to say it was THE BEST, and THE ONLY browser to use. On the contrary, I just wanted to make sure that people who like IE now aren't scared off by all the "IE will get you hacked" propaganda.

I am also 31 years old, but I wouldn't call the work I was doing when I was 16, "IT", that's for sure.

I'm using Mozilla 1.3b right now, and I like it.

This comment was edited on Feb 19, 12:02.

Clearly I do care eh? Not really.

Um... your point would have been better received if you didn't follow it up with two paragraphs of why "anti-Microsoft whiners" suck so much.

The funny thing about rhis is most of you anti-microsoft whiners are running Windows

True. Particularly on a gaming site. For gaming, there is no platform even close. And I actually like XP. For the record, I also run Mandrake and Slackware partitions, but never for gaming. Dealing with some of Microsoft's products is a necessary evil if I want to continue to be a gamer. That's what a monopoly does... restrict choice. Therefore, I promote alternative products when/where I can. Like Mozilla or Opera.

I've noticed that you like to call names a lot, but you've never really refuted any of my statements. You just keep saying "IE isn't so bad, and I should know, since I've worked with it for a long time." Okay, but that's hardly a reason to not use another browser. Why release your venom on me? Are you personally tied to Microsoft in some way?

To those who aren't sure about the browsers, just run the one that you like best.

See? That's all I've been saying since the beginning. Don't just live with IE because it's handed to you with your OS. Pick one that works for you.

Jeff, what the hell do you know about the 90's, junior?

Oh, good. Rational arguments. In fact, I'm 31 years old and have a wife and child. I've been working in IT for 15 years, and I've been developing web applications (server side) for the last 8. I'm sorry... you kind of walked right into that one, didn't you? Not that any of that should matter... a 14-year-old can decide for themselves whether they like tabbed browsing or mouse gestures. Making yourself sound like an apathetic curmudgeonly blow-hard isn't going to sway anyone to your side.

Oh wait, I forgot... you don't have a side... you don't really care...

Jeff
Edit: Spelling.
This comment was edited on Feb 19, 11:44.

JH,

Clearly I do care eh? Not really. I just want to make sure the people around here who don't know any better, understand that IE works great as do many other browsers. See, you anti-Microsoft whiners have a tendancy to distort the truth and make MS products look/sound worse than they actaully are. The only reason I mentioned my job was because it shows that I spend a lot of time on the net, and I have tons of experience using IE and the other browsers. Some of the kids that frequent this board don't know any better so they might buy into you propaganda.

The funny thing about rhis is most of you anti-microsoft whiners are running Windows. If you are gonna complain and hate MS so much, at least man-up and run Linux or something. If you can figure out how to install it, Debian is a great flavor.

To those who aren't sure about the browsers, just run the one that you like best.

Jeff, what the hell do you know about the 90's, junior?

i personally get annoyed with tabbed browsing. i just use a big monitor with high res and i have windows next to each other. and if i run out of room i just open up more in another VWM sector. personally, i just want the browser to be a box with the web site, and nothing more.

i've yet to be inundated with popups. i watch for 'gain' activated stuff (and related things). only time i ever get a popup is planetquake and porn sites.

i look at the file extensions i download, and i watch to not do stuff thats overtly insecure. and everything that can hurt you is overtly insecure, if you know to recognize it (exceptions being software that streams stuff to you with commands, i.e. flash-like software, cause you just have to take the risk if you wanna have it).

i really dont care what browser it is, so long as it doesnt have too many features littering the face and taking up screen area for BS.

-scheherazade

Instead of opening 2 or 3 instances of your browser, they all open inside your browser and you switch from window to window via small tabs at the bottom or sides of your browser. NetCaptor has not been updated in some time, but still good. If you want something currently being updated\worked on regularly, I say Avant Browser or MYIE2. A new beta of my IE2 just came out.

"What is tabbed browsing? I might check into one of these front ends to see what they are all about."

This comment was edited on Feb 19, 10:05.

ppl who say "n00b" are cool, you have to spell it with two zero's though, everyone knows that


I tried Opera for the first time since about '99 the other day. I like it for the most part. It loads pages a bit slower than IE, but only slightly.

I really love the "mouse gestures" feature though. Lazy mans dream come true. The only thing better would be a matrix type setup where your pc is plugged directly into your brain.

This comment was edited on Feb 19, 08:47.

Gotta love the anti-microsoft trenders. They actually still think it's "cool" to give a shit. I stopped caring about 5 years ago. Now I just use the best tool for the job. I don't give a shit if it's Microsoft's tool, or some garage developer's. Whatever works.

But, clearly you do care, or you wouldn't be going on and on about how experienced you are with Web Design and how you are the only voice of reason amongst all these trend-seeking wanna-be n00bs.

If all you really cared about was the best tool for the job, you certainly could find more feature-filled, secure browsers than IE. If you're now going to make a statement that IE is the best browser for everyone, period, we can stop having this conversation because you're clearly beyond any kind of rational discussion.

And, for the record, apathy was so 1990's... it actually is cool to "give a shit." As you, yourself, are proving by carrying on these arguments.

Jeff

This comment was edited on Feb 19, 08:39.

new york is not safe

Well, here's a little analogy for you: Say you move to Nebraska because you're scared of terrorists. So if they do blow a nuke someplace, you're probably gonna be safe, because Nebraska isn't exactly gonna be their #1 target. But that still doesn't mean it's much fun to live there.

But, see... here's the thing. Mozilla is both more secure and has more features than IE. It's like living in New York City, but having New York City being the safest place to live in the country. (Your analogy doesn't really work in that respect.)

Jeff

now u r cool like me

Gotta love the anti-microsoft trenders. They actually still think it's "cool" to give a shit. I stopped caring about 5 years ago. Now I just use the best tool for the job. I don't give a shit if it's Microsoft's tool, or some garage developer's. Whatever works.

As for the security risks, that's all in how smart you are online. You could use IE4 (and all it's holes) to surf if you weren't stupid. Like I said, in 10 years of building sites, surfing warez, porn and every other website out there, I have never had ANYTHING bite me through an IE security hole. Never. Not saying it isn't possible, clearly it is, but it's also not as easy as some of you MS haters would like to think.

And yes, I have multiple browsers installed on my dev machines (IE, Netscape, Lynx, Opera, etc) I have since 1993 when I started. Everyone knows to do that. What? Did you think you were cool? n00b.

This comment was edited on Feb 19, 01:23.

Well it's just a good thing that nobody's had to develop for NS 4.x for ... about 2 years.

To the guy who said he was a web-developer that only uses I.E.: Do you check your sites with other browsers? If not, FUCK YOU, and you deserve to be fired.

Ok, I have a question or two. Are all the security attacks on IE purely because of bad programming or are they just aimed at IE because it's the most used browser?

Well, here's a little analogy for you: Say you move to Nebraska because you're scared of terrorists. So if they do blow a nuke someplace, you're probably gonna be safe, because Nebraska isn't exactly gonna be their #1 target. But that still doesn't mean it's much fun to live there.

Sorry to anyone living in Nebraska. No, I've never been there, and yes, I'm sure it's nice there. It's just the first place that came to my mind.

And yes, I use IE, exclusively. If any of you ever had to design for Netscape 4.x, you'd hate it too. And just as you still hate Microsoft for sins of the past, I still hate Netscape.

jh most of that is grossly exagerated

Are all the security attacks on IE purely because of bad programming or are they just aimed at IE because it's the most used browser?

I think nearly everyone would agree that a big part of it is the second reason. But I'd say some of it is just sloppy work on Microsoft's part, and probably the biggest reason is one you didn't even list: lack of concern, which leads to slow response to known issues.

Are the other browsers really bulletproof or are they just being ignored?

Good question. No software is bulletproof, but traditionally other browsers have been much, much quicker to respond to posted security alerts than Microsoft. For instance, that SSL exploit I mentioned earlier also affected the Unix-based Konqueror browser. The gentleman who found it pointed it out to both MS and the Konqueror folks at the same time. Konqueror had a patch out in 95 minutes... MS didn't even respond for days until this guy (Mike Benham) went on TechTV and started telling his story to the media. It still took MS weeks after that to offer a patch.

Did some searching, found some links:
http://www.techtv.com/news/security/story/0,24195,3395766,00.html
http://www.opennet.ru/base/exploits/1029256685_974.txt.html
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/08/12/1341239&mode=nested

Jeff