Yes, the MP5 may lack the sheer firepower of the P90, but the fact of the matter as I have stressed earlier is that it is much easier to master. It's high accuracy at sustained automatic fire makes headshots a breeze, and firing it in bursts can plant rounds over great distances. It is a reliable weapon whatever your skill level and it's cheap price makes room for more tactical ordinances like the various types of grenades.

The P90 and the UMP on the other hand would often require the player to crouch and/or burst (Negating some of the advantages of a 50 round mag) to get that level of accuracy at similar ranges. Skills that many players I know of would rather reserve for the deadlier M4 or AK.

I once went through a phase where I tried to master some of those odds weapons in bot play at home and hoped to convert the people I played with at LANs. Despite the fact that I was indeed doing quite well with those weapons, nobody bothered to follow in my footsteps. Perhaps your CS environment is more open to diversity. But wherever I go in my country, people tend to stick with what works.

"Life is not about the second chances. It's about the little mouse, and his voyage to an exciting new land. That, my friend, is what life is." - Dad

I don't buy based on cost... ok... I do, but rarely. 300$ difference for an UMP is nothing when you take into consideration its excellent stopping power (the UMP is basically as good as an M4 in many situations. It will go through objects). The P90's price is decieving, because the 50 round magazines are the same price as the MP5's 30 rounders. so... it starts at 2350... fully loaded it is 2410 or so in cost (30$ per mag right?). The UMP, by constrast, costs 1700$, but you need 5 mags, for another 150$, bringing it to 1900$, the MP5 takes 6 mags adding 180$. So... ammo for my P90 is half the price of the MP5 (not IRL, but in the CS world). Now, add its extra features (high ROF, relative accuracy in bursts, large magazine capacity), and you have something that is WORTH the extra money. Its the same reason why people buy the DE. Two shots, and the guy is dead, and it only costs 650. Price for performance.

If I am a CT on a bomb mission, and we won the first round I almost ALWAYS buy a P90. The reason is, if I get rushed, and I have a P90 I WILL deal lots of damage to the rushers. I can fire another 20 bullets after they have all run out. I can fire mine faster, and they even hit a little harder too.

With at least a million people playing CS around the world (including LAN play) at any given moment, "lots of people" using only a few guns is really nothing less than THE overwhelming majority.

The weapons do seem somewhat balanced when compared side by side from a performance and handling perspective, but I think the monetary aspect of the game is rarely taken into consideration.

For example, with the MP5 costing much less than the P90, it is always easily purchased by anyone desiring an SMG and thus becomes THE SMG that everyone eventually ends up mastering.

Once you've realized how effective the MP5 can be even late in the game, would you even care to switch to a more expensive SMG with only a marginal improvement in performance?

Unlikely, either because you are already confident with your mastery of the MP5 (such is the case with the UMP), or because there are more potent weapons available within your budget (M4/AK or one of the new cheap ARs.) The same case can be applied for the AWP versus the G3.

Basically, it all boils down to simple cost-effectiveness. The more expensive weapons in a given weapon class should be better than the cheaper ones.

"Life is not about the second chances. It's about the little mouse, and his voyage to an exciting new land. That, my friend, is what life is." - Dad

I find the weapons in CS well balanced.

Sure, lots of people only use a few guns (usually Mp5 right away, then M4/Ak or noob stick [aka AWM/P]), but not all.

In the early rounds I buy either an UMP45 or a P90. Why? Well, the P90 has a very high cyclic rate and a large ammo magazine (50 rounds) which combined make it a very lethal close in weapon. CS balances this by making it a little less accurate than in reality (in reality is is extremely accurate, one of the best SMGs out there). The UMP45 I like because it is very accurate (I've shot AWPers with it at ranges more conducive to the AWP), and it hits hard 45.cal is mean ass. It is slower firing than in real life, but the long reload times are accurate. I actually kind of like having the slow ROF because it means I spend less time reloading. lol.

I rarely use the G3a3 or Sig sniper rifles, but then again, I rarely snipe. If I do I am liable to use the AWP, unless I can't afford it, in which case I use the scout. But, I do know how to use them, and they do have their place.

Depending on the situation I may use the para M249 (which fires way faster and way more accurate in real life [it used to be good back in Beta 2-3 era]) for suppression. Using it makes people on the other side scared. That's a valuable purpose sometimes.

If there was one thing in Urban Terror that should inspire the CS team, it would be the weapon balance.

It's neither perfect nor realistic, but by limiting the amount of weapons they'd have to work with they have managed to make all of them useful for various situations and playing styles. Even despite the fact that they lack the additional monetary variables of CS.

Each weapon in Urban requires a unique set of skills from the player that when mastered create a highly effective tandem of man and machine, both in killing and in teamwork.

IMO the CS team is completely lost concerning this issue. They've given up and have ignorantly contented themselves with simply releasing new yet untested weapons and letting the players sort them out. Perhaps it's simply the team succumbing to the tenacity of the hardcore fans who protect their beloved game from any change that would detract from their L337-ness with the handful of weapons actually being used.

"Life is not about the second chances. It's about the little mouse, and his voyage to an exciting new land. That, my friend, is what life is." - Dad

There are mods out there that make the saber combat much more accurate i.e. all mouse movements are reflected in what you see on screen.

I still love CS. For me it is a combination of two factors that make it great. One, its the feel. It just feels right. I've played it so much that I shoot people on autopilot. The second is that I play only on one server (unless i am in a match) and I know most of the regulars. If I am dead, I chat it up with them over the mic, when we are alive, we instinctively work well together.

So far, no game has come close to replicating that feel. I've tried, but failed to find it. Global ops, with all of its shortcomings was close. You can mod your weapons (a nice touch), defusing a bomb you have a 1:3 chance unless you have time to run the program to find which wire needs snipping, and it had some fun gameplay ideas. The problem was that the feel was off and the game a bit biggy on first release. I tried America's army, which had great graphics, but found there were lots of server issues, and many, many, morons who ruined it for everyon. I played Dod, which I like, but am more enamoured with the CS style setting. I tried the Q3a and unreal tourney CT mods (blech) too. Now, I tried raven shield this week (I think it sucks, and I loved the first two). So... basically, until something better comes along I'll be playing CS.

re: The RIOT shield. I like this. It adds a new tactic on certain maps. Imagine Dust when the T's are rushing the B bombsite, and they run down the hall to the site, only to be greeted by 5 CT's, 3 with guns, firing behind two ballistic shields. I am eager to see how this changes CS's tactics.

If only Jedi Outcast was smart enough to have multiple duels going on at the same time so I didn't have to wait so long before the next duel. That and Decapitations!

JK2 was a good game. My only complaint was a control issue. I spent a lot of time trying to become good at light-saber duelling, but it never reached a point where I felt that the kills I were making where more a direct result of my skills than of random flailing on the mouse and keyboard. To me a good game emphasizes skill over all else. Quake was like that, CS is like that. (if only they'd get RID of that damn AWP?M)

>Of course it could simply just be because it was the engine that many of us grew up on.

I dunno. I'd rather play a game with better graphics. But if it doesn't work right then I'm not going to stick with it for very long, which is why Quake3 games suck ass. (damn pretty though).

I try it all, and there was one game that had the fluidity of Quake on a Quake3 game... Jedi Knight2: Jedi Outcast. The game had great fluidity. But the single-player mode was fraught with illogical or awkward puzzles and stupid platforms to fall to your death. The multi-player was only interesting for duels, which meant you spent a large amount of your time waiting to be killed by some 12yr old kid that was out for summer vacation and played that game 14 hours a day. But, if you did get in a game with some normal people, it was quite entertaining. I always enjoyed walking back n forth with my light saber cutting into the metal floor beneath me as I taunted my enemy to approach. Fun stuff.

Anyway, it was fluid. But they didn't make it fun. So there's that too. Counter-Strike is fun. There's a penalty for dying. You have to wait. That's so smart! I can't believe how smart that is. It makes you a better player and it immerses you into the game more. I mean, who gives a shit if you die in Quake. Press the spacebar, right? If only Jedi Outcast was smart enough to have multiple duels going on at the same time so I didn't have to wait so long before the next duel. That and Decapitations!

The problem with these games is that there is an inherent speed and fluidity in the half-life engine which far exceeds the ability for eye-candy graphics to interest the average to hardcore gamer. Online players desire for a feeling of immersion like a good movie, where they can fall into the game and enjoy fleeting moments of feeling like they are part of a situation. Some people pretend better than others, some people enjoy graphics to assist them in their immersion, but nothing compares to the fluidity of half-life’s Counter-Strike for its immersion quality.

It's funny you should mention this, because I am of a similar belief. There definately is something about the engine that just 'feels' right. I think it has something to do with the fact that it is at is core the Q1 engine. Something about that engine has, I believe, contributed to the huge success of the games that were based upon it. (Quake, Half-Life, Team Fortress, CS, etc.)

Of course it could simply just be because it was the engine that many of us grew up on.

">30. Re: Riot shield = pointless Jan 14, 12:43 Von Helmet
>Mechanik - Fair cop I stand corrected. But as you say, holding the shield when it takes a shot will likely knock you on your ass. And I doubt it would stand up to many shots of that kind.

Whenever I see someone talk about ballistics like a moron, I say, “Funny how people that play CS believe they know something about warfare and weaponry”.

The bullets hit the shield and the shield absorbs the impact over a large area of the shield which is transferred to the ground on which the heavy shield rests and to the braced forearm of the person who is in a kneeling or balanced stance position with the center of gravity forward of the shield holder and slightly behind the shield. The bullets would be felt through the shield, but it would *NOT* knock you on your ass."

Yeah, but I'll wager that in CS you can just run around with the shield in front of you and it will absorb the damage. That would knock you on your ass.

But yeah, if it does actually involve the whole stopping and holding the shield properly then you're right, it won't knock you over or anything. But I bet that isn't the case in CS. It would slow things down too much.

Oh, and for the record... I don't play CS. And I don't think I know much about weapons and the mechanics involved therewith.

>40. Quake 2 never surpassed Quake, no matter how close.

I completely agree with you. They dressed the new whore up in a pretty dress, but underneath she was still just another bitch on the street.


>35. The AWP.... Jan 16, 00:37 pancreas
>I'm still waiting for the patch that will make the AWP cost $10,000.

Damn whores.

Whenever I see an AWP whore, I say, “1st step, complete noob. 2nd step, AWP constantly. You are 1 step away from complete noob.”

Then I get everyone to save up for and use an AWP, after which we say, “Oh I’m sooooo good. I killed you with an AWP. I must be skillful.” And then we stop using it, and basically insult the idiot off the server by calling a spade a spade.

>30. Re: Riot shield = pointless Jan 14, 12:43 Von Helmet
>Mechanik - Fair cop I stand corrected. But as you say, holding the shield when it takes a shot will likely knock you on your ass. And I doubt it would stand up to many shots of that kind.

Whenever I see someone talk about ballistics like a moron, I say, “Funny how people that play CS believe they know something about warfare and weaponry”.

The bullets hit the shield and the shield absorbs the impact over a large area of the shield which is transferred to the ground on which the heavy shield rests and to the braced forearm of the person who is in a kneeling or balanced stance position with the center of gravity forward of the shield holder and slightly behind the shield. The bullets would be felt through the shield, but it would *NOT* knock you on your ass.

>18. Re: Riot shield sweet!! Jan 14, 01:26 c r i s p y
>I hope at some point they quit upgrading CS and just come out with a new version, based on a more modern engine. Imagine a CS with the graphics of the new Doom engine.

---

This has already been tried with Unreal, aka Tactical Ops or Quake 3, aka Urban Terror. The problem with these games is that there is an inherent speed and fluidity in the half-life engine which far exceeds the ability for eye-candy graphics to interest the average to hardcore gamer. Online players desire for a feeling of immersion like a good movie, where they can fall into the game and enjoy fleeting moments of feeling like they are part of a situation. Some people pretend better than others, some people enjoy graphics to assist them in their immersion, but nothing compares to the fluidity of half-life’s Counter-Strike for its immersion quality.

I doubt that Doom3 will be conducive for a fast-paced fluid game since the game is slowed down and the monster count per scene is 1-5 instead of dozens. Perhaps in the future with a Geforce 7 or ATI 20,000. But right now, the technology simply doesn’t exist for 32 players to move at the half-life rate of speed on a doom3 platform.


>14. TF2 Jan 13, 23:30 Black Manta
>What ever happened to Team Fortress 2?

After Valve’s success with half-life, one of the founders retired and went sailing for the rest of his life. This is a true story. My suspicion is that this person was the brains behind half-life, and since nothing new and fresh has come from Valve, it sort of figures in. This Steam idea is just a money-generator. It isn’t going to lower prices of gaming software, it is just going to allow developers to get a larger chunk of the profits and to allow the publishers and marketing people to continue to be a part of the game, while removing the distributors and manufacturers. I’m pretty sure Half-life 2, if it is ever made, will still cost $50-$60 whether you can hold onto a CD or not.


>7. 1.6 eh Jan 13, 20:35 Wolf
>I have a love hate relationship with CS. I love to hate it. its fun, but I fuckin hate it. I was excited about 1.6 when it was anounced. but since i got my hands on BF42's 1.2 patch. and all those movies on RTR from IGN, CS just doesnt intrest me anymore. I think they should just let it die. With the death of CS, will also come the death of the hacks.

Whenever I see a hacker, I say, “You know, cheating your kills is like jacking off and telling everyone you got laid. It just isn’t the same thing”.

Then I join his team and get everyone to knife attack him into corners and humiliate him with constant insults. If I can’t join the his team, then I get everyone to wait until he is close to our spawn and everyone types “kill” in console.

For all you people complaining about cheaters and how the riot shield won't do crap...you should get off the pubs and try to get into a decent clan that is in leagues like CAL and UGS..

I have been playing CS for 2.5 years and if it wasn't for scrims/matches I would have stopped long ago.

It brings a new light to CS.

It is a different game when compared to CS. Counter-Strike is more arcadey while Rainbow Six 3: Raven Shield is more of a Sim. Anyway...Raven Shield's single player is going to rock and will make it a "must have" for action players.

One thing I find curious about all these new tactical FPS games/sims is there lack of voice communications. HOw the hell are you supposed to co-ordinate your teams movements if you cant communicate?

*gasp*

The dude might be back after a 6-month absence?

Just when things were getting a little boring around here....


-TPFKAS2S

Quake 2 never surpassed Quake, no matter how close.

_____

The possible pain, suffering and sacrifice of discovery are by no means an excuse to remain ignorant.

CS 2.0:

Featuring 32 new, unbalanced weapons that you'll probably never use!!! You AWP/MP5/M4/AK/DE Whore!

And 12 new maps that are wayy too complicated for those that have been completely dumb-down by countless months of playing only De_Dust!!!

"Life is not about the second chances. It's about the little mouse, and his voyage to an exciting new land. That, my friend, is what life is." - Dad

As with Quake1 where the only real Quake1 killer was Quake2, the real CS killer will be CS 2.0... although I must admit, because CS has now such a waste fanbase, it will even for CS 2.0 be very hard to surpass CS 1.x in terms of success...

CS won't die for a long time, even if some people really wish it would some time very soon.

This comment was edited on Jan 16, 15:01.

It is a different game when compared to CS. Counter-Strike is more arcadey while Rainbow Six 3: Raven Shield is more of a Sim. Anyway...Raven Shield's single player is going to rock and will make it a "must have" for action players.

Some dipstick on here told me that Raven Shield was the big new CS killer... To him: I wave my private parts at you. I tried the demo today; what a turd of a game!


This comment was edited on Jan 16, 01:47.