Full Motion Video

eh.. What is a FMV? Full Media Version? :-P

Yeah, that was a bad call on my part. Perhaps if there was actual falling rubble, though, then it would have been better.

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The possible pain, suffering and sacrifice of discovery are by no means an excuse to remain ignorant.

No! The reactor exploding bit should not be an FMV! I loved that bit! I was there when it was exploding! I was scared I'd get killed by falling rubble if I stood in the wrong place! In an FMV everything is out of your control. With in game stuff you can move around and you are actually there, rather than watching a video of yourself being there.

Bad idea.

I appreciate what you had to say. You took a lot of words right of my mouth. However, I think we have a misunderstanding and that I feel that is the reason why you said what I was probably going to say.

I agree on many accounts including how Doom, Quake, and Half-Life are merely tools for exploring the possibilities, technically and creatively. I also agree how the storyline should not be spoon-fed to the player.

What I think, is the reason for this misunderstanding, though, is that I did not write enough of what I had thought of the subject to avoid misunderstandings. Perhaps I can tie the knot with this post.

What I do mean to say about a missing storyline in HL is when there is a lack of material. Perhaps if there were books to read, computers to explore, more NPC’s to talk to, help, ect, then perhaps I would have enjoyed the game more fully. Our impasses occurred when I did not state that while the method of storyline delivery is good there was a lack of material being delivered. Puzzles and exploring areas filled with monsters is not delivering a storyline as much as it is delivering new gameplay.

I do agree, though, that using scripts and NPC’s is a great way to tell a story, but without the aid of a cut scene to set the situation which is out of the power of a scripted event the situation will feel unconvincing.

I say this because the gaming industry is not up to my standards. I realize the possibilities of using a cut scene/scripted event/NPC combination, as well as FMV’s to illustrate an event that is outside the power of the game’s engine. Perhaps we will see all of these techniques used properly one day.

The beginning of HL is a good beginning that could have been improved upon by an FMV. Imagine the beginning of HL becoming more like a movie, starting with some music, followed by credits and then addresses Black Mesa, perhaps the outside. I could see the train ride being left in there, but a cut scene which is left out of the player’s control would be one when the reactor explodes. There are many ways to improve upon HL, just as there are many ways to improve upon many other games.

I think it is important to realize that the more tools you have to use the more material you can present to the player and more methods of presentation. Keeping in mind that we are merely conversing about the storyline, mind you. There are techniques of gameplay and other areas of games that are unheard of. It is when developers attempt to use more tools that they will realize how useful those extra techniques are.

Shogo didn’t utilize complex scripts or NPC’s to present its storyline. It remained convincing because of the level design, an area that I am well-versed in.


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The possible pain, suffering and sacrifice of discovery are by no means an excuse to remain ignorant.

Thank you for an interesting exchange. Let me begin by saying that I do agree that Half-Life is limited in many ways and I do not intend to say that is perfect or even adequate in every respect. I remember when I played it the first time I was struck by two things: First that here *finally* I was seeing a game that seemed to take the next step to fulfill the potential of the first-person 3d-medium since Doom/Quake in a way that felt perfectly natural. Next, I felt that measured by this standard it was also just the beginning, and that all we saw was was just a hint of the possibilites it was playing with.

Perhaps the heart of our different perceptions of HL is to be found in this remark of yours:

>Without cutscenes we would then be stuck with interactive >storytelling. That would be horrid. It means the player >would have to interact with either very complex scripts or >the player would be forced to test its patience by standing >near a talking NPC. While I now see what you mean by >Half-Life's storyline, a story is not entirely comprised of >minute actions or events which then lead to nowhere. There >was almost nowhere to begin in Half-Life, but that was >besides the point: that if you want a good storyline you >will also need a storyline supported by FMV or in-game >cutscenes. A convincing one supporting an awe-inspiring >world at least. (Plus, movies are by far the best source to >learn how to tell a story, anyhow.)

Possibly the demand that a game should have a "story" is bit misleading, precisely because this is the kind of structure on a user experience which is forced on us in *non-interactive* media. NOLF follows this strictly and you only do things to in order to trigger scenes in a story which is not yours. In lesser games I almost haven't even got the patience to watch the cut-scenes out. In the real interactive world the outcome is determined to a much larger extent by your actions, and there is no voice coming from above telling you what kind of "narrative" you are in. Things just happen as a result of your actions and the interpretation of what happens belongs to you or your participants. That is why I feel the NOLF way of doing it (however elegant and sympathetic) is blind ally for the genre.

How could it be otherwise? I think the genere must acquire a new set of techniques over time, like the film industry has done, and how the written media has done. Half-Life shows that the makers knows about this and has started the process to explore the real possiblities of the 3d-gaming experience.

Some examples: I really like the opening sequence in Half Life, where the train takes you deeper and deeper into the Black Mesa complex. The voice on the intercom indirectly lets you know a good deal about the nature of the institution, a feeling for your own role and social relations. And along you can walk around and look at strange machines doing work, military helicopters taking off etc - things that make *you* make up your mind about what kind of story you are in. This train represents a technique to deal with the technical limitations of bringing you into a "story" in a game while at the same time letting the character experiece it first hand. Compare that to some lame cut-scene, and realize how profoundly more important such an attempt is for the game genre.

In real life experience an understanding of what happening is most often the result of talking to other people. This is not possible or at least easy to do in a game, but in Half-Life they use the techique that the characters talks to you, not expecting an answer. This is another solution to exploit a possiblity in the medium at the same time as dealing with its limitations.

And a many other things such as the scripted sequences, the over-heard dialogue, that you disscover (not by a narrator) that soldiers that turn on you the other staff mid game etc. The game feels more than scene, a place where things happen than glued on story.

Deus Ex, by the way, introduced another techique, which is to introduce multiple solutions to each problem and even different story lines as the result of you actions. Clearly a contribution to the fundamental problem of deveoloping the genre.

I liked Shogo as well, but do not feel it belongs to the present discussion. If Unreal 2 goes for shallow characters taken from the top of your head, because it is imprinted by the most superficial popular culture (and found in games like SOF, Gunman Chronicles), they would be well advised however, to rather try to utilize their specific kind of charm, like Shogo did.

@ teh mane mahn:

Y'know, if you do decide to pick up Deus Ex, make sure you get the version which already has the multiplayer component pre-patched as it'll save ya the download (even if you're not interested in the MP aspect, that patch improved the D3D side of the game *a lot*)

"The key to immortality is first living a life worth remembering - Bruce Lee"

"Shame on you! Go play it! It's cheap, go get it!"

You know, it's been on my mind before, but I've never really gotten around to buying it. But now I might try it.

_____

The possible pain, suffering and sacrifice of discovery are by no means an excuse to remain ignorant.

"I have never played Deus Ex"

Shame on you! Go play it! It's cheap, go get it!

Zenon:

"I'm not sure you are right about that. The whole thing in Half-Life comes well toghether in a way that is not so easy to surpass IMO. The sense of story and immersion, the enviromental sounds, the wit and intelligence behind the charachter portrayal, the quality of the puzzles, the way the graphics enhances the story."

Half-Life came together in in much less story form as it is gameplay form. It had little to no story except for what is said in the manual and the first 15 minutes of the game. After that the storyline is a minute factor in the game.

There was little to no character portrayal done by the game. What little material there is was to be found in the first 5 minutes of the game. In comparison to many other games this is some of the least character portrayal ever done by a game. The evidece? I took a stroll through the game only once but what meek material there was to offer was soon forgotten because it was not built upon.

The emphasis behind the Half-Life character, as I see it, is a scientist. That's it. If he died I would not feel for him. He adds nothing to the game except for a cheap cop-out for the opportunity to write a great and enthralling storyline.

The puzzles offer little enticement. From what I remember, the main problem was finding the pieces to some of the bigger puzzles. That, Zenon, can be related to finding the red key.

The graphics were good at the time. However, graphics are not timeless, and so is not perk. However, regardless of the time, the shotgun is still a mess. When it fires, if the fire button is held down, the shotgun will not complete the entire series of loading frames before firing again. This gives the impression that this weapon was rushed.

"The only game in my mind that comes close is NOLF and Deus Ex."

While I admire that you suggest alternative games, I must succumb to the likes of Doom and Quake. For a game with a storyline, I could only suggest Shogo: Mobile Armor Division. There are not many FPS's out there with a strong storyline.

Without cutscenes we would then be stuck with interactive storytelling. That would be horrid. It means the player would have to interact with either very complex scripts or the player would be forced to test its patience by standing near a talking NPC. While I now see what you mean by Half-Life's storyline, a story is not entirely comprised of minute actions or events which then lead to nowhere. There was almost nowhere to begin in Half-Life, but that was besides the point: that if you want a good storyline you will also need a storyline supported by FMV or in-game cutscenes. A convincing one supporting an awe-inspiring world at least. (Plus, movies are by far the best source to learn how to tell a story, anyhow.)

"Deus Ex is great, but has some important flaws. Apart from that I don't can't think of any games coming close so far, despite the time that has passed since Half-Life."

I have never played Deus Ex so I cannot comment on that segment, but for the time that has passed Half-Life there has been some good games with great storylines that are apart from FPS's and PC's altogether.

"Another important point is that to surpass gaming experience that Half-Life gave it is not enough to somehow "incrementally" improve upon it. To genuinly surpass it, a contender must be as original in relation to present games as Half-Life was to its predecessors. I don't think that is easily done."

Originality is a hard thing to come by, especially in the gaming industry. Keep in mind that Half-Life is not entirely original. There are parts of the game where it resembles, I think, 60's or 70's movies.


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The possible pain, suffering and sacrifice of discovery are by no means an excuse to remain ignorant.

This comment was edited on Jan 14, 12:26.

>Zenon - 1:
>
>“Aren't these the guys who claims to surpass Half-Life? From >these short glimpses it seems that they do not understand >that such an undertaking must be done intelligently, like it >was done in NOLF and Half-Life. “
>
>It is reasonably easy to surpass Half-Life by my standards.

I'm not sure you are right about that. The whole thing in Half-Life comes well toghether in a way that is not so easy to surpass IMO. The sense of story and immersion, the enviromental sounds, the wit and intelligence behind the charachter portrayal, the quality of the puzzles, the way the graphics enhances the story.

The only game in my mind that comes close is NOLF and Deus Ex. I don't like that NOLF uses cut-scenes to tell the story - I think that the genre should aim a kind of immersiveness and interactivity that is specific for this medium and should not aim to copy a movie. Deus Ex is great, but has some important flaws. Apart from that I don't can't think of any games coming close so far, despite the time that has passed since Half-Life.

Another important point is that to surpass gaming experience that Half-Life gave it is not enough to somehow "incrementally" improve upon it. To genuinly surpass it, a contender must be as original in relation to present games as Half-Life was to its predecessors. I don't think that is easily done.

Sure *graphically* UT2K3 seems to have gone down the Q3 route, but that really seems to be about all.

I don't see how UT2K3 can be a rip off of Q3A - UT kicked that into touch several years ago with sheer number of game modes (like Assault) and quality maps, not to mention better AI, the Q3CTF AI that shipped with Q3 was piss_poor, Team Arena really improved things but imo that should have been part of Q3 instead of an addon. It is the Q3 community mods (and TA) that make Q3 a cool product. (I'm a type 3 person, I like them all)

Back to Unreal II - if its due out in the first week of Feb shouldn't we have had a 'Gold' announcement already/soon ? *nudge*

"The key to immortality is first living a life worth remembering - Bruce Lee"

1) Unreal fanboys
2) id fanboys
3) The rest of us who just shut up and play whatever is good.

Also, on a vaguely humorous note... there are 10 types of people in this world. Those who understand binary, and those that don't.

HAR HAR.

Well, as by bushboy's statement, I must be the type 3 person. Which means that I will always have 2X the fun type 1 or 2 will ever have.
...Wait a sec..I like mmorpgs also..and RTSs..and RPGs...wow, I must be the happiest guy on earth!

Edit: spelling...and stuff

This comment was edited on Jan 14, 08:21.

There's two types of people in this world.

The type who think everything Unreal rocks and the type that things everything id rocks.

I fall firmly into the latter.

Ok - we can make that 3 - those who like both.

I have no faith in this being a good game, because I've now been burned twice by Unreal tech.

The first was Unreal, which ran like absolute crap on my system, even though games like Quake and Quake2 ran brilliantly. I guess it was a video card thing, as I had a TNT when I first tried Unreal and it didn't much like the whole Direct3d thing at the time.

The second was UT2K, which wowed me with the demo, but totally dissapointed me with the lame final product that was nothing more than a Quake3 rip-off 4 years later - nice eyecandy and that's about it - total waste of money.
I tried it on my work LAN with about 5 people for a day.
The next day we were all back to our usual online fraggin - quake3 etc. and UT2K hasn't been touched since.

All my opinion of course - I do hope Unreal II is a brilliant game, but I have my doughts.

Roll on Doom3 and Quake IV !!

This comment was edited on Jan 14, 04:05.

@ teh mane mahn:

Legends good rep from an underrated game was imo down to piss poor marketing - the game was great and ppl who played it generally felt the same. It was missed by a lot of people and didn't get the coverage it deserved because it just was not pushed by the 'suits'

Totally with you re: Valve's patch-it-and-repack-it attitude. The only winner in that scenario is the guy who bought the Super Gold Plus Power 10 Half Life Box Set with T-Shirt TM rather than the previous 32 boxed versions and gb+ of downloads, well a winner until they bring out the Mega Gold version with enhanced shrink wrap anyway

"The key to immortality is first living a life worth remembering - Bruce Lee"

Zenon - 1:

“Aren't these the guys who claims to surpass Half-Life? From these short glimpses it seems that they do not understand that such an undertaking must be done intelligently, like it was done in NOLF and Half-Life. “

It is reasonably easy to surpass Half-Life by my standards.

MyRealName - 9:

“Bravo Legend, good trailer. It plays just like a movie promo. I've not paid much attention to Unreal II up to this point, but this piqued my interest some. “

It is nothing of the likes of a professional movie trailer.

For a long time the gaming industry has been plagued with unoriginality and tastelessness as opposed to the movie and music industry. It is not surprising that this trailer would not last a second chance at show time.

Cicatrix – 32:

“Obvously you don't write it. Didn't you mean throw?”

No, he probably didn’t. Perhaps you should touch up on your English a bit.

Fpoon – 50:

“The story does look like it's been ripped out of oh so many sci-fi movies, but the story is just a plus. If I want an awesome story, I'll catch a flick or grab a book. If I want to have a fun experiance on my computer, I'll grab a game.”

A complete underestimation. Ever action in this world that is committed by a conscious, an individual, is an act of self-expression. If this game were to have a poor storyline compared to another game of a great storyline, the other game would succeed in one area of self-expression.

Self-expression can be used to illustrate an intriguing or thought-provoking idea of one or many wonders of this world. Withouth a story, this game would still effectively remain an action game. However, without the proper expression of ideas held comonly by books and movies, our world would be dull. It is essential to understand that a strong, convincing storyline to illustrate a given situation is greater with entertainment value than a poor storyline.

Ultimately, storyline is one of the pillars which supports self-expression. The ultimate goal of any product of media, whether it be a book, movie or game, should be an act of self-expression. It helps greatly to build a strong storyline.

“If a game has a cool story and its done right (Half-Life, System Shock 2) it's an added bonus.”

And what was the storyline of Half-Life may I ask?

“Here's hoping that someone can develop a multi-player mod soon after release so we can have the best of both worlds...”

Yes, but without the rushed multi-player component, that remains a meek possibility.

Gog - 52:

“Saying HL mp crap is pretty out there... if Valve didn't include mp in the first place and didn't support independent developers as it did and still does, mp would be lagging years behind... “

That is a vast exageration. MP had a brief spurt as an effect from Half-Life’s component. It was entirely up to Doom, Quake and other games to take the credit where credit is due.

XEON – 56:

“Valve have made their money from Half Life, their constant reiterations of the same package (like Generations, Gold etc) not to mention the spin off games like Blue Shift & Opposing Force. There is also the ports to other platforms (well PS2, DC never made it, but I'm sure they were paid for it)

And lest we forget the orignal Half Life OEM demo (that would have brought in some good cash) “

It is worth mentioning that vALVE’s patching is also what helped brought MP success. I feel that is the reason for binge patching and reselling of the same game with different titles.

L0cksm1th – 57:

“Saying 'Its all about money' is a non statement. For the publisher, of course it is. For the developer who have already got their money, it's all down to making a great game.”

That is not entirely true. While it helps polish the game, it also establishes future sales of the same product and a reputation.

human – 67:

“Sorry, Porkface, but nothing you wrote refuted anything I said. Unless you have figures that show that sales of retails Half-Life have been less, in total, than CS, you have no point here.”

There is merit to his statement. The figures state that Sierra had been profitable in their strategy to commercialize a mod for Half-Life MP.

Corran Horn – 68:

“Easy there nerd-lingers ... arguing about sales of computer games ? Still a virgin at 35 eh .. no doubt, so much hostility and anger. Settle down :O”

What is the meaningful perk of losing one’s virginity at an age of less than 35?

XEON – 69:

“Legend so far have a pretty good rep' - check out Wheel of Time - very underrated game (with a fab co-op mode btw) so it's going to be interesting to see what they do with Unreal 2.”

How is it that you achieve a good reputation from developing an underrated game?

human – 72:

“Ah, yes, an accusation of middle-aged virginity from...'corran horn'? Ah, yes, a google reveals that this was the name of a character from a Star Wars novelization. Who's the fucking nerd NOW?”

LOL, now that is funny.

Revision: Spelling

_____

The possible pain, suffering and sacrifice of discovery are by no means an excuse to remain ignorant.
This comment was edited on Jan 14, 01:30.

Oh, and to keep it real here. I really don't understand the negative presumtions being made here for Unreal 2 based off of a trailer. And, from what I saw, this game is going be UNREAL. I can't wait. I just wish I had the money to fork out and get a Gforce FX the minute it hit the selves.

-Tony!!!;)

Contrary to the misconcieved image that you folks like to circulate and hurl around as isults, you can be a nerd AND get laid. Fish taco's anyone?

-Tony!!!;)

Has anyone else had problems with wireless mice in UT? My wheel won't work in it. I've got 2136 of the game and 975 Mouseware Logitech drivers. Ideas?

Mike