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More on the WTC Disaster (Updated)

Of course this is not game related (we do not expect to be doing any further game coverage today), but with the legit news sites being almost impossible to access at times today, we've been getting loads of requests for more information about what's been going on. Here is the latest as of about 9:00 PM EDT:

  • President Bush addressed the nation 8:30 PM EDT. Here's a wire report: WASHINGTON (AP) - A grim-faced President Bush condemned ghastly attacks in Washington and New York on Tuesday and vowed to "find those responsible and bring them to justice." In the second Oval Office address of his presidency, Bush said the United States would retaliate against ``those behind these evil acts,'' and any country that harbors them.

To recap:

  • In two separate attacks, hijacked planes struck both main towers of the World Trade Center in Manhattan this morning, and both of the "twin towers" subsequently collapsed.
  • A hijacked plane struck the Pentagon in Washington, D.C. and part of it has collapsed as well.
  • A hijacked plane crashed in western Pennsylvania, near Pittsburgh. Reports indicate the hijackers planned to crash this plane into Camp David in Maryland.
  • 47 Story WTC building seven, one of the five (relatively) smaller buildings in the World Trade Center also later collapsed from ancillary damage.
  • The White House, the Pentagon, and the Capitol Building were all evacuated, all domestic flights in the US have been grounded through at least noon tomorrow.
  • Other closings include most federal offices, the stock markets, the Disney theme parks, and the cancellation of today's Major League Baseball schedule. The President's speech announced that all federal agencies will be open for business tomorrow.
  • Broadcasts out of Afghanistan showed evidence of missile attacks and antiaircraft fire, but what connection this has to today's apparent terrorist attacks in the US is not clear at this point. The US has denied involvement in these attacks.
  • In the first hints of any sort at the scope of casualties, the New York City Fire Department has estimated that as many as half of the 400 firefighters dispatched to the scene are missing. CNN has said that 78 Police officers are missing. Also, the death toll from those on the four hijacked planes has been placed at 266. The number of dead and injured at the Pentagon has been widely reported as about 100. No estimates of the number of victims from the World Trade Center have been made.
  • People throughout the United States have are being urged to donate blood to help offset significant shortages in New York and Washington. The American Red Cross in Greater New York or the American Red Cross are places to contact about donating blood or money, or both.
  • Some news sites seem to be back online. Here are some links that have been more reliable:;; Yahoo; The New York Times;;;;; MSNBC; and BBC News Online.

All of our thoughts go out to the victims of these attacks and their families and friends in what must be an incredibly difficult time.

654 Replies. 33 pages. Viewing page 4.
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594. Re: Hold your horses contd. Sep 15, 2001, 16:58 anon@12.154
It's simple. Bush needs this war, just like his dad did. What better way to divert attention from his administration - already on thin ice after just 8 months.

He has stated publicly that fighting terrorism is now the focus of his administration. What happened to education? What happened to the squandered budget surplus? To the abysmal state of the economy?

He forces the word "war" into every sentence that comes out of his mouth. GW is like a child - giddy with his new dirty word.
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593. Re: Hold your horses Sep 15, 2001, 16:47 anon@208.178
If somebody kills your family and you know who it was and the general area they lived in what would you do? Hold your horses? It has been four days and a lot of intel has been gathered. I would even wager we had a general location on Bin Laden before this happened. We will not rush headlong into the devils den. We will lie and wait for him. Or find his location and hunt him down.

We have had and always will have recon planes flying in the region. I worked on these plains. I know what they can do. If I were Bin Laden I would not even think about using a cellular phone or any other form of communication except face to face. If I were Bin Laden I would kiss my ass good bye.

It may take us a bit longer to find him but we (the world) will. And justice will be served. Any government that harbors these insane criminals will fall with them. Nato and most of the world has united behind this.

As far as you anti-American or un-patriotic assholes on this message board... your ignorance and lack of respect for human life is appalling. And may God punish you all as well...
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592. Re: Hold your horses contd. Sep 15, 2001, 16:45 anon@12.154
I sure wish the press would pick up on that piece of wisdom - I've been wondering myself lately why we don't just leave Saudi Arabia and Kuwait.

Let's arm the oil executives and send them in after Bin Laden - they are the only Americans who will have anything to gain from this fabricated war.

I'm sorry, but vengeance alone isn't enough of a reason to send our boys to their death.
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591. Hold your horses contd. Sep 15, 2001, 16:40 anon@212.213
"If we don't eradicate terrorists now they will keep coming and coming."

How exactly are you planning to eradicate terrorists? There are more terrorists in the world ready to sacrifice themselves for the sake of religion than you can ever kill. Even if Bin Laden is captured, what good is that going to do? Is the war going to end? No, someone else will fill his shoes. Terrorists don't have a nation, they don't care if Afghanistan gets wasted. They'll just move on to some other suitable location. The more you hunt them, the more people will join them. Or do you expect the civil victims of your country's actions to understand that it's all for their own good?

I don't know all the reasons why those terrorists do what they do, but I read that one (if not THE) reason is that the presense of USA troops near their "holy locations" in the Middle East pisses them off. I don't really see why USA can't just pull away from those areas. Backing off is damn much cheaper than fighting a war. Besides, USA is quite self-contained and doesn't really depend on those oil resources.
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590. Re: Hold your horses Sep 15, 2001, 16:16 anon@24.185
Where do I even begin...

Of course Bush and his team (and their allies in Europe and elsewhere) have intelligence. In fact, our new "ally" Pakistan has said it has a lot of intelligence on Afghanistan that it will share with us. Additionally, suppose Bush knows that there are X terrorist cells in such-and-such places. Do you think he's going to go on TV and say so? This is not a one-man operation here -- you have the FBI, CIA, NSA, armed forces, NATO allies, and others working on the case. You can be sure they have accumulated a lot of intelligence already.

No, this terrorist attack was not the end of the world. Well, actually it was for the 1000s of dead and their families. But how many attacks do we need to suffer before retaliation is warranted? Bombings at embassies in Africa, the USS Cole, the WTC, the Pentagon, the barracks in Somalia (if I remember right)? Should we wait until a suitcase nuke detonates in YOUR neighborhood before we punish these bastards? We should have gone after Bin Laden and his cohorts back in the 1990s when he called for jihad against the United States (and the rest of the civilized world, for that matter). Now we're paying the price.

And besides, if Bush really wanted to drop bombs for the sake of dropping bombs, he could have done that on Tuesday. There are already troops and a couple aircraft carriers over there in the Persian Gulf.

As far as the experiences the Russians and British had in the hills of Afghanistan are concerned... Yes, you are 100% correct, they were creamed, and I suspect as you do that the Allies in the coming weeks/months/years will have serious casualties. But think back for a moment what Reagan did to Lybia -- he bombed the hell out of the place until Kadafi <sp> had enough. Heck, we had to kill the man's daughter before he cried uncle. Even today Kadafi is basically off the radar. If we drop a lot bombs all over the Taliban's HQ and on Kabul I feel very confident it will be effective. They'll hand over any and all terrorists we demand. Violence is the only language that these people understand.

If we don't eradicate terrorists now they will keep coming and coming. These people don't fear death and they won't stop until they are all dead, or we're dead, whichever comes first. You can't reason with someone who doesn't respond to reason.
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589. No subject Sep 15, 2001, 16:05 teh mane man

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    588. No subject Sep 15, 2001, 16:04 teh mane man

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    587. Hold your horses Sep 15, 2001, 15:52 anon@212.213
    It appears to me that the people (the people in charge included) of United States could use a reality check. If you really think you can just walk your special troops into Afganistan and smoke Bin Laden out of his hole, you're royally mistaken (although I certainly hope you succeed). You see, the terrain over there is plain mountains, so no matter how many thousands of rockets and missiles you send there, you won't hit a thing. Ask russians, they spent a decade banging their heads in the Afgan rock. Quoting one of their high-ranking officers, "Afganistan makes Vietnam look like a walk in the park". Well, they weren't in Vietnam as far as I know, but I assume he knows what he's talking about. Be prepared for a long war and heavy setbacks.

    By the looks of it, Bush is also prepared to send the boys there guns blazing without any knowledge of Bin Laden's whereabouts, which kind of amazes me. Is he really so thirsty for vengeance that he's ready to start a full-scale war, instead of using intelligence and patience to hunt down Bin Laden? You're not going to win anything by killing innocent civilians who have nothing to do with the terrorists. In fact, you're likely to suffer from it, since such actions are guaranteed to raise the terrorist activity exponentially. You'd be basically begging for the suitcase nukes that have been mentioned quite often in the last few days. I wonder, is it worth the risk? Perhaps now would be a good time to drop the superpower-attitude for a moment and look reality square in the face. Let your emotions cool down a bit and think rationally before you act. The terrorist attack was not the end of the world - a war might actually be, and I wouldn't be too surprised if that's exactly what those religious fanatics want just because some old geezer ate a few too many mushrooms and predicted so years ago.
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    586. No subject Sep 15, 2001, 15:52 teh mane man
    You do not even have a name, anonymous.

    As for my profound stance earlier: I had apologized. So if you did not understand the word 'condolences', I suggest you take a refresher course, or English 9.

    Also, I had registered long ago, when it was required. Though, I would have registered no matter the option.

    You are no bother on my mind. You are the dust I brush off of my shoulder.

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    585. Re: No subject Sep 15, 2001, 15:44 anon@12.154
    Typically, when a man takes a stand, he doesn't make himself invisible.

    Real Name teh mane man
    Nickname teh mane man
    Email Concealed by request.
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    584. Re: No subject Sep 15, 2001, 15:41 anon@24.190
    I find this apple pie bullshit of America pretty funny.
    Though, I am an American, just not by heart.

    Then do us a favor and don't refer to yourself as an American.

    I'll take a stand and say, "Shut the fuck up already."

    That's quite a stand you took. Very profound.
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    583. No subject Sep 15, 2001, 15:18 teh mane man
    May anarchy unite the best of us, to destroy the worst of us...

    Oh, and I'm sorry for being so rude. My condolences...

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    582. No subject Sep 15, 2001, 15:16 teh mane man
    May anarchy unite the best of us, to destroy the worst of us...

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    581. No subject Sep 15, 2001, 14:54 teh mane man
    I find this apple pie bullshit of America pretty funny.

    Though, I am an American, just not by heart.

    I'll take a stand and say, "Shut the fuck up already."

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    580. Re: Don't Tread On Me Sep 15, 2001, 12:14 anon@208.178
    (Who the hell voted for that Clinton idiot?)

    Sorry, my statement about Clinton was a joke. I should have proof read my post and realized it was out of place. I do realize that most of the voters did indeed vote for him, twice. Forgive me. I was trying for a bit of humor in these times of extreme sorrow.

    Clinton was no better or worse than the nation you describe: a well-intentioned visionary who did a lot of things none of us are proud of.

    But that was also part of my intentions by mentioning Clinton (and your opinion on his two terms is your opinion). A lot of people that voted for Bill Clinton did so on the best of intentions. The dishonest things he did betrayed the trust of those people and us the American people. But the majority voted him into office and we as a nation stood behind or beside him throughout. We must again stand united throughout the dark days ahead.

    I want to point out that we as a nation and a world community must act in unison. We must do a terrible thing. We must administer justice and punishment to those responsible. It will not be pretty. People will die. But it must be done and we must unite in doing this.

    Some people will be shocked and horrified by the acts of war that will be our (the worlds) retaliation for the attacks on America. But we must act. The stability of the world is at risk.

    Show your support. Voice your opinions. Take a stand. Everyone I know, everyone I have spoken with over the past few days agrees. The world must attack terrorism for the good of all. This was a crime against humanity. And humanity can not... must not be a pacifist.

    And to those who feel diplomacy will work and that we should try that long and drawn out process. I say this... you can not reason with insanity. These individuals want us dead for no other reasons than our way of life, our beliefs, and our acts of compasion and aid in assisting several nations in the middle east region.

    They see us as a devil, a desease. And we must look at them in the same manor. We must seek them out and destroy them. We must imprison the individuals willing to surrender.

    Also we must educate and break the cycle. I am willing to bet most if not all of the suspected terrorists were raised with hate, racism, and lack of compasion. And if not raised that way then they were taught it by peers and mentors, trained (brain washed) to be part of this insane cause.

    A child raised with hate, racism, and bigotry becomes the racist bigot that his/her parent/gaurdian was. But not all fall into this trap.. this never ending cycle. Some break the chain. So if you harbor any of these negative emotions for people of other races and religions... think. Think about the children and how you taint their views of the world. Think about the people around you and how you infect them with your negative acts and comments. We have seen proof of this in this very thread.

    We can change ourselves and change the world and the time is now. God Bless...
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    579. Re: Don't Tread On Me Sep 15, 2001, 12:06 anon@12.154
    #575 Ok, you got me. It is pretty difficult to come up with a lot of positives to the Clinton legacy. Balanced budget, and his assault on the deficit come to mind.... bringing peace to Kosovo...

    However, being a visionary doesn't always translate into results. It was Clinton's own self-destructive behaviors that prevented much of his dreams of becoming reality. Nevertheless, he did possess a powerful dynamic for inspiring Americans. Sadly, he was such a failure on the personal level, that he left us all hanging - right there on the edge of his Bridge to the 21st Century.

    His penchant for shooting himself in the foot, and, as you mentioned, his self-serving tendencies did indeed infuriate me. Still, I found the path he outlined for America to be an enticing one.
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    578. Falwell and Roberston.... Sep 15, 2001, 11:48 anon@24.163
    Y'know, I really didn't like these guys before; now I think they're some of the biggest a$$holes I know of.
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    577. Patriotism is... Sep 15, 2001, 11:36 anon@12.154
    i"[Finally, I am going to say something that will probably infuriate a lot of people, but I firmly believe this:
    If you are an American citizen, and do not support going to war, you are not a patriot of this nation."

    Good Lord, man, take pause. Those are incendiary words - words more compatible with calls to Holy War than with the thoughtful actions of an intelligent democracy.

    Although I support military action, I certainly do not support your statement - and neither does our Constitution, which all true Patriots should hold dear. All Americans - indeed all Patriots - have the right to dissent.

    In fact, I applaud the lone California representative who voted "nay" to the use of force. She has the courage to dissent, and I respect that - as should all Patriots of a free society.
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    576. Re: This thread.... Sep 15, 2001, 11:36 anon@62.7
    Here is wisdom:

    ".... has run out of steam, people are arguing semantics and politics and not serving any constructive use as it was a couple of days ago - in fact it seems to be degrading in use in every new post. Isn't it time it was closed Blue ?

    My heart and thoughts are with those affected by these outrageous attacks on the US - don't forget how many innocents died and lets honor them.

    These bastards will be brought to justice one way or another this isn't the place for an arguement to as how.


    Bravo. Amen. We can all argue this back and forth for years. We are responsible for electing our leaders here in the west. Lets put our faith in them to resolve this situation.
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    575. Re: Don't Tread On Me Sep 15, 2001, 11:18 anon@24.185
    I have to disagree with this. Clinton did NOT get a majority of the vote both times. In 1992 he got in the 40's and in 1996 he barely got half. Of course he got a majority of the Electoral Vote, but certainly not the popular vote. Even our current president, who lost the popular vote, got a higher percentage than Clinton did the first time around!

    As far as a "well-intentioned visionary," that is patent nonsense. He and his wife are in politics for one reason: self-improvement. The only "vision" they have for themselves is "How can I get ahead today?" Sadly this is true for most politicians, but it is especially true for those two. And if he was such a great visionary, why didn't he do anything positive during his two terms in office? I bet you can't tell me three positive things he accomplished in 8 years as a direct result of his policies!
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    654 Replies. 33 pages. Viewing page 4.
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