More on the WTC Disaster (Updated) [Sep 11, 2001, 8:30 pm ET] – Share – Viewing Comments
Of course this is not game related (we do not expect to be doing any further
game coverage today), but with the legit news sites being almost impossible to
access at times today, we've been getting loads of requests for more information
about what's been going on. Here is the latest as of about 9:00 PM EDT:
- President Bush addressed the nation 8:30 PM EDT. Here's a wire report: WASHINGTON (AP) - A grim-faced President Bush condemned ghastly attacks in Washington and New York on Tuesday and vowed to "find those responsible and bring them to justice." In the second Oval Office address of his presidency, Bush said the United States would retaliate against ``those behind these evil acts,'' and any country that harbors them.
To recap:
- In two separate attacks, hijacked planes struck both main towers of the World Trade Center in Manhattan this morning, and both of the "twin towers" subsequently collapsed.
- A hijacked plane struck the Pentagon in Washington, D.C. and part of it has collapsed as well.
- A hijacked plane crashed in western Pennsylvania, near Pittsburgh. Reports indicate the hijackers planned to crash this plane into Camp David in Maryland.
- 47 Story WTC building seven, one of the five (relatively) smaller buildings in the World Trade Center also later collapsed from ancillary damage.
- The White House, the Pentagon, and the Capitol Building were all evacuated, all domestic flights in the US have been grounded through at least noon tomorrow.
- Other closings include most federal offices, the stock markets, the Disney theme parks, and the cancellation of today's Major League Baseball schedule. The President's speech announced that all federal agencies will be open for business tomorrow.
- Broadcasts out of Afghanistan showed evidence of missile attacks and antiaircraft fire, but what connection this has to today's apparent terrorist attacks in the US is not clear at this point. The US has denied involvement in these attacks.
- In the first hints of any sort at the scope of casualties, the New York City Fire Department has estimated that as many as half of the 400 firefighters dispatched to the scene are missing. CNN has said that 78 Police officers are missing. Also, the death toll from those on the four hijacked planes has been placed at 266. The number of dead and injured at the Pentagon has been widely reported as about 100. No estimates of the number of victims from the World Trade Center have been made.
- People throughout the United States have are being urged to donate blood to help offset significant shortages in New York and Washington. The American Red Cross in Greater New York or the American Red Cross are places to contact about donating blood or money, or both.
- Some news sites seem to be back online. Here are some links that have been more reliable: CNN.com; CNET.com; Yahoo; The New York Times; washingtonpost.com; usnews.com; ABCNEWS.com; FOXNews.com; MSNBC; and BBC News Online.
All of our thoughts go out to the victims of these attacks and their families and friends in what must be an incredibly difficult time.
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No more MB plugs please.
This comment was edited on Sep 12, 06:57.
This comment was edited on Sep 12, 06:57.
As of now Kashmir-related group taking responsability, and Osama Bin Laden is pointed out as the responsable...
Both of which have no connection to Israel. be objective in your recap and I'll comment more.
oh.. and btw, US did try to put good rulers on top.. never succeeded...
Both of which have no connection to Israel. be objective in your recap and I'll comment more.
oh.. and btw, US did try to put good rulers on top.. never succeeded...
unfortunatly that's the only way usa can deal with the current problem coz they are just so unimaginable to come up with some other than kill for kill
just the responses i expected.1) the msg wasn't intended to have any plot or a point.
do you know what 2 cents mean? it means a break opinion or a responce that doesn't go deep. grammar? haha like i came here to write an assay...
2) as strange as it might sound for you now but i was always for piece but world can't be in harmony anyway. it's our nature (yah the human nature). oh yah you are all so saint then why the f... world never had piece? we are all involved in seemless roles for all the crap that's going on everyday. every one of our individual action counts and then it erroses to bigger entity...
3)well in 2-3 years i will most likely do the gfx for some next star wars clone shit movie that you americans will watch coz no other coutry would wanan see some meaninless move of it's kind. yah good gfx, anything else...? matrix...if you are still thinking it's a good movie with super story then you need to wake up. and for whom these movies intended to? for which audience? yap you guessed it right...
4) each person got his/her own POV and there is no right or wrong and who are you to deside what's right and wrong?...
5) there is nothing left to discuss, all we can do is just quietly watch what happens next.
6) i bet no one of you would go donate blood, "uhh nah why bother, there are already other countries suppling blood, they will get enough anyway and i better sit here and watch it all unveal on my lil screen."
7) atleast 1/4 of you posted your condolences here not coz you reall care for those ppl but just to feel good of yourselfs and stick together with what presumed to be right, or wrong?
8) i don't wanna discuss this anymore with bunch of slime bags who can just flame each and every person on boards every day without doing anything really valuable to the world. btw i may also be counted here.
9) heck i got out of russia with parents not coz "WE WERE NOT NEEDED OR WHATEVER" but coz it sucks there right now, and to let you know my father was a very respected figure working in (mobil,shell,mitsubisi,maraphone,mcdermont) consorcioum in eastern russia.
go figure you bunch of ppl who might not even know where israil is on the map and talk so loud about it. hah that was my point actually...here is example of sneaking your noses at things that you don't know or that shouldn't be of your business. go to school first and learn your OWN NATIVE english first before judging some stupid brief msg of a foraigner who's english can't be perfect anyway.
and i didn't say i wasn't sorry for all those ppl, it jsut glad it happened but not glad that it happened in a way that could be just applied to military and government importance installations
345. reply Sep 12, 02:17 anon@130.195...
#324, a more likely situation would be that the hijackers killed the pilots prematurely, and were unable to control the plane on their own.
Granted, 99% of what 'information' is available at this very chaotic moment is pure speculation, I have heard a very realistic theory which I'm leaning towards (and could very well be rebuked at any moment, but who knows...)
I'm guessing that since this was the last plane to take off the pilots got word over the radio what was going down in NYC. Next thing they know - they're being hijacked and very quickly put two and two together and chose real quick to ditch the plane before anything was able to happen. IF this is true, those guys sure are heroes, no doubt....
I really don't want to reply to any of these posts saying 'USA brought it on themselves', 'I'm glad this happened', but I have to. Anyone, anywhere who encourages the meaningless loss of life on this kind of magnitude either...
- merely looking for attention in the most sick way possible
- immeasurably immature and out of touch with reality
- just as frighteningly scary as the people who were actually behind this stunt.
I'm not going to rant on that topic anymore... I'm all of a sudden feeling quite ill...
- Magua
Spot on, #347.
I don't have much more to add. Its a pity that the view we share is actually a minority. Most people tend to think of the people in all the countries in the middle east as bad and evil. The fact is there are innocent kids there... and a lot of them are just as innocent as any other kid. They probably don't want to be there. Bombing isn't the answer.
You can't condemn acts of terrorism and then as retaliation commit more "professional" acts of terrorism.
They just need to make sure that this doesn't happen again. Killing more people is not the answer. Just because they're not American doesn't mean they're not human.
I don't have much more to add. Its a pity that the view we share is actually a minority. Most people tend to think of the people in all the countries in the middle east as bad and evil. The fact is there are innocent kids there... and a lot of them are just as innocent as any other kid. They probably don't want to be there. Bombing isn't the answer.
You can't condemn acts of terrorism and then as retaliation commit more "professional" acts of terrorism.
They just need to make sure that this doesn't happen again. Killing more people is not the answer. Just because they're not American doesn't mean they're not human.
people suffer throughout this world. suffering so close to our 'homes' seems to be more disturbing. suffering in the body can anger 'us.' when one assumes that he or she 'belongs' to any orginization, it's as if any damage done to that orginization is damage to the self.
'i' suppose it's good that we differentiate or 'we' would be this angry at 'each other' all the time.
perhaps we are doomed to be angry at 'ourselves.'
'i' suppose it's good that we differentiate or 'we' would be this angry at 'each other' all the time.
perhaps we are doomed to be angry at 'ourselves.'
"We should start dropping a nuke a day in the mid east till they hand the cowards over. "
You know, YOU are the kind of person that makes people hate americans in the first place. Making jokes about nuclear bombings of other countries, OTHER innocent people? YOU may be angry at what happened, and SO are the rest of us. But please THINK before you open your mouth in hate. You are breeding the exact kind of hatred for this golden nation that the rest of the world has, you are making arrogant, disgusting comments about dropping a nuke on other countries, without any thought or rational. And the fact that you were probably joking makes it even sicker.
Please people, it is one thing to think these things to ourselves out of anger, but understand and please take a step back and think about the words that you contribute to the rest of the world and it's people. Every one of us has an affect on the outside by what we say, like a man tossing pebbles into a lake.
You know, YOU are the kind of person that makes people hate americans in the first place. Making jokes about nuclear bombings of other countries, OTHER innocent people? YOU may be angry at what happened, and SO are the rest of us. But please THINK before you open your mouth in hate. You are breeding the exact kind of hatred for this golden nation that the rest of the world has, you are making arrogant, disgusting comments about dropping a nuke on other countries, without any thought or rational. And the fact that you were probably joking makes it even sicker.
Please people, it is one thing to think these things to ourselves out of anger, but understand and please take a step back and think about the words that you contribute to the rest of the world and it's people. Every one of us has an affect on the outside by what we say, like a man tossing pebbles into a lake.
You are making assumptions that there is incriminating evidence and terrorist voices on the black box. It should be noted that there is actually two boxes on commercial jets, I believe an orange box and a black box. What is on either of those , if intact, is much more likely to show us what happened via the plane's maneuvers, rather than any middle eastern swearing over a radio. The FAA will analyze this flight data and , I suspect, show that perhaps during the struggle to subdue the pilot and copilot, that the plane with either intentionally or unintentionally put into a dangerous maneuver that was unable to be recovered. Either way, the most important thing is that they were not allowed, by the grace of the powers that be, to take many more innocent lives....which no doubt would have happened should they have reached their "target", whatever it may have been.
#324, a more likely situation would be that the hijackers killed the pilots prematurely, and were unable to control the plane on their own.
The fact that the plane crashed before reaching it's 'target' could be a godsend, as the black box is more likely to be intact in that situation. It could present some interesting insight into the hijackers. An accent can tell a lot about where someone is from strangely enough
The fact that the plane crashed before reaching it's 'target' could be a godsend, as the black box is more likely to be intact in that situation. It could present some interesting insight into the hijackers. An accent can tell a lot about where someone is from strangely enough
I belive that today re-inforces my opinion of "America first or get the hell out!"
I had friends die today in New York, and some of the comments here make me sick and wish that someone would yake some of you sick basterds and feed you feet first through a Arby's meat slicer.
If you are a forigner in the US because your countries education/jobs suck and you sit there and applaud what happened, then pack your shit go back to your third world country and stay there.
We should start dropping a nuke a day in the mid east till they hand the cowards over.
I had friends die today in New York, and some of the comments here make me sick and wish that someone would yake some of you sick basterds and feed you feet first through a Arby's meat slicer.
If you are a forigner in the US because your countries education/jobs suck and you sit there and applaud what happened, then pack your shit go back to your third world country and stay there.
We should start dropping a nuke a day in the mid east till they hand the cowards over.
Amazing. In case you do read this:
You got so caught up in the romance of killing and dying, which really isn't as romantic as you make it out to be with pretty fair romantic imagery reminiscent of an unrestrained Tom Clancy, that you forgot that what people are so upset about is that there were thousands of people killed along with that "symbol" being destroyed.
Also, it is pretty damned arrogant to take that step...because, guess what? No matter how sure you are what you are doing is the right thing, you might be wrong. This can be minimized, arguably, when the target poses a direct threat to you and yours...I mean virtually no one condemns someone who validly shoots a burglar in defense of himself/herself and their family. But going out and killing a generalized group of people...whether that generalized group is "American" or "Arab" for your personal beliefs boils down to one thing...arrogant.
Pardon me...you do seem to have some social conscience, but you seem very childishly romantic about death and killing, and very indifferent to life when your beliefs get involved. I must say I find it disgusting. BTW, I find Americans beating up "Arabs" because of this tragedy pretty damned disgusting too...almost as disgusting as the tragedy was in the first place. Perhaps it is more accurate to say it is a continuation of the tragedy.
-The guy in the hospital from a previous post.
You got so caught up in the romance of killing and dying, which really isn't as romantic as you make it out to be with pretty fair romantic imagery reminiscent of an unrestrained Tom Clancy, that you forgot that what people are so upset about is that there were thousands of people killed along with that "symbol" being destroyed.
Also, it is pretty damned arrogant to take that step...because, guess what? No matter how sure you are what you are doing is the right thing, you might be wrong. This can be minimized, arguably, when the target poses a direct threat to you and yours...I mean virtually no one condemns someone who validly shoots a burglar in defense of himself/herself and their family. But going out and killing a generalized group of people...whether that generalized group is "American" or "Arab" for your personal beliefs boils down to one thing...arrogant.
Pardon me...you do seem to have some social conscience, but you seem very childishly romantic about death and killing, and very indifferent to life when your beliefs get involved. I must say I find it disgusting. BTW, I find Americans beating up "Arabs" because of this tragedy pretty damned disgusting too...almost as disgusting as the tragedy was in the first place. Perhaps it is more accurate to say it is a continuation of the tragedy.
-The guy in the hospital from a previous post.
Interesting math there, but since the air ways are going to be grounded till tomorrow afternoon, I don't think the terrorists will have the opportunity again... At least until the airlines get back to a normal routine scheduling.
They were smart in choosing flights that (assuming they were non-stop) fully loaded with fuel, since they were meant to fly cross-country. Since their targets were relatively near by from there they took off, the fuel on those jets were basically full, to cause as much damage as possible.
As for the one flight that crashed in PA. I'm thinking that was a hijacking that went bad. Perhaps the crew, or passengers were able to kill the hijackers and ended up grounding the jet. If this were the case then the crew and passengers should be considered heroes for stopping them from possibly crashing into another target.
They were smart in choosing flights that (assuming they were non-stop) fully loaded with fuel, since they were meant to fly cross-country. Since their targets were relatively near by from there they took off, the fuel on those jets were basically full, to cause as much damage as possible.
As for the one flight that crashed in PA. I'm thinking that was a hijacking that went bad. Perhaps the crew, or passengers were able to kill the hijackers and ended up grounding the jet. If this were the case then the crew and passengers should be considered heroes for stopping them from possibly crashing into another target.
__ FRAGaLOT
the 'USA' grandfalloon asked for people to donate blood, and the people donated blood. there was much that 'we' asked for and recieved. ultimately all of this lead up to the post 'you' are about to write.
'Russia' and 'Canada' are also grandfalloons, be nice to people who 'think' they are 'members' of such 'institutions.'
go eat something healthy and please, be nice.
had enough 'opinion?' appropriate your resources, try sleep.
'Russia' and 'Canada' are also grandfalloons, be nice to people who 'think' they are 'members' of such 'institutions.'
go eat something healthy and please, be nice.
had enough 'opinion?' appropriate your resources, try sleep.
Here come the spin doctors.
Zombi, you sir, are a true ass-monkey. A cause, if wrong, makes actions for that cause wrong.
Despite what you say, there is no "reason" for these acts. Especially if you call a mythical "god" a reason.
You are weak-minded and try to pursuade others through your oratory. Please, you are not as important as you think you are. Go away.
BTW, as a professional pilot I can tell you that there was no "sophistication" or even "coordination" necessary in this attack. All you needed was a handful of fanatics and a few box cutters. That's it. It may scare you, but it's true.
The "coordination" need be nothing more that a cell phone call. Grow up, you ass, and stop regugitating what you see on TV.
You say you will defend you family. What happens when it's THEM that die at the hands of useless fanaticism?
-CommOri
Zombi, you sir, are a true ass-monkey. A cause, if wrong, makes actions for that cause wrong.
Despite what you say, there is no "reason" for these acts. Especially if you call a mythical "god" a reason.
You are weak-minded and try to pursuade others through your oratory. Please, you are not as important as you think you are. Go away.
BTW, as a professional pilot I can tell you that there was no "sophistication" or even "coordination" necessary in this attack. All you needed was a handful of fanatics and a few box cutters. That's it. It may scare you, but it's true.
The "coordination" need be nothing more that a cell phone call. Grow up, you ass, and stop regugitating what you see on TV.
You say you will defend you family. What happens when it's THEM that die at the hands of useless fanaticism?
-CommOri
Uhmm.. Did anyone catch what that jerk said? (post #323) Perhaps someone can translate bullshit into English for me, since babble-fish does not have that translation option.
__ FRAGaLOT
www.s11.org
While I don't hold any great disagreement with some of the perhaps controversial views in this post, some specific views are rather disgustingly glib, along the lines of what is wrong with "white liberal guilt" if any of you know what that is.
7. "We don't want to piss off the people that control 90% of the world's oil reserves and thus control whether we get to continue our extravegant American lifestyle's". What? Well let's just go to your later post condemning U.S./UN for what we did to Palestinians...hmm...well, what if they pissed us off by just being there? Well, they shouldn't have obviously since we have a much bigger military than them. Gee, that's a pretty indefensable stand, isn't it? It's strange...the Palestinian question isn't as simple as you made it out (though your point isn't completely invalid), yet the issue of the U.S. bowing to Middleast countries simply because they control so much is very simple...we shouldn't. It is simply a clearly bad reason, perhaps the worst, for us to not "piss off" a country when the issue is terrorism. Take a look at yourself...you're a poster child for what the terrorists would love to turn every American into (assuming a MiddleEast bent, as the news seems to confirm quite strongly, thank you) as a result of these actions. Again, I say this not for your views on Palestine, but on your reply to 7.
15. "What exactly is cowardly about this attack? They sacrificed their lives for a cause they believed in, and they did so in a very direct manner (I'm not sure how you could get any more direct, short of trench warfare.)"
Hmm...brave, cowardly, or insane? Good or evil? If someone gives no notice to their own life and saves another, that is brave. If they give no notice to their life to drag race down a highway, they are insane (perhaps stupid is more accurate). If they give no notice to their lives to kill others (on purpose), they are cowardly. Hmmm...why do I say this? Well, because..is suicide brave? No, that's not the first word to come to mind is it? Though it can be for certain reasons. Killing thousands of people you don't know, and who aren't trying to kill you, isn't one of those reasons....why? Because dealing with issues this way is COWARDLY. Why wasn't it soldiers? Because it is too hard to kill soldiers. Civilians are much easier to kill in quantities. Never mind that the people who have to live in the world the suicide bomber leaves behind at his choice pretty uniformly live a worse life...including the people he presumably wanted to die for. Hmm...actually, wait...aren't many of these people doing this for religious beliefs, convinced (I mean CONVINCED) by some corrupt interpretation of their religion that they'll be rewarded in the afterlife (I mean above and beyond "just" living a good and decent life, and I mean the kind of good and decent life that can be lived in abject poverty, and is much harder than simply dying for anyone)...what's brave about that?
"Dropping a missile out of the back of a plane that's going faster than the speed of sound, now THAT's cowardly and believe it or not we do it every other day somewhere in the Middle East (of course, this isn't news so you never hear about it.)"
Wow, never served in the military, have we? Never been subject to being ordered into harm's way? Never trained years to perform well once there? Perhaps you have done all this...and you still wouldn't have the right to uniformly condemn men and women who do the duty you so casually dimiss with contempt. You do realize that some of them don't come back, right? Putting yourself in that situation, especially when you have family you want to go back to, is not cowardly. I wish you would consider your positions on the US side of this issue with more than the stupid (sorry, it really fits) callousness you display here.
"Also, you seem to be jumping the gun here. ..."
Didn't read the post...he/she almost definitely was, but so are you by dismissing them...and the reasons you give don't sound too well reasoned either. You basically sound like someone who sees people making an extreme argument on one side of the issue, go ahead and make points, mostly valid, criticizing them, and then merrily go on your way making foolish statements on the OTHER extreme of the issue. Pretty common on the internet, because you don't get immediate feedback. Hopefully you'll give my points some honest thought instead of sticking to your guns blindly in order to defend your ego (even more common on the internet).
"Right now the only people you can blame are the men and women that run the United States government, without them the middle east would not even be in this volitile situation and, if they are indeed responsible, this situation could have been easily avoided.... Hell, a year ago at this time we were on the verge of peace in the middle east"
Oh really...when was the last time YOU tried to avoid a situation like this? A former ambassador, are we? On the Counter-Terrorist Task Force, are we, or should we just ignore the many attempts that have gone before this on your say so, "just because"? Or are you talking out your ass about an issue you don't really know about? Hey, you're probably responding to some people who did the same thing, but it doesn't excuse you, now, does it? Perhaps it isn't so easy to solve the world's problems as you think. That's not to say that wrong hasn't been done, but that isn't to say wrong hasn't been done on BOTH sides...or are you really DEFENDING terrorism as a valid practice of statecraft? BTW, I do not heartily approve of our side of the "Palestinian question". I also think that there are many horrified Palestinians who aren't on videotapes, in contrast to the jubilant dancing Palestinians broadcast today...but it doesn't excuse it, does it? I feel the same way when I've seen some Americans act just as contemptibly, with perhaps a bit more specific shame. But I didn't think anyone should have gone out and shot the disgusting Americans, just as I don't think similar should happen to those Palestinians. But those people, and the terrorists they celebrate, represent the worst in humanity, present in all countries, not because of the reasons for their dissatisfaction with the US, but the method of addressing that dissatisfaction that they executed in one case, and are celebrating in the other.
37. "The US's missiles have missed: hit schools, hospitals and other such innocent buildings. This is known as collateral damage and is considered common place in most American air strikes, missile bombardments, and other military operations, who are the cowards now (we've even coined a phrase)?"
Yep, collateral damage is pretty horrible...yet, I'm sure our cowardly serviceman just love it when it happens. I'm sure they're glad they get the excuse to INTEND to kill civilians, just like terrorists. I think you are a bit confused in that cowardly label you throw around...or do you really mean that NOT intending to kill civilians is more cowardly? You know what is pretty horrible, too? Putting civilians in military targets, and putting military targets INTENTIONALLY near to schools and hospitals. Hmm...strange how in the U.S., the government tries to DEFEND it's people, not USE their lives in such a fashion in hopes of political leverage. BTW, I make it clear I'm talking about Sadam only here...I can't even picture Palestinians doing this...the difference being that I think the Palestinian leadership actually cares about it's people, although I don't think they are doing the best job they can, even considering their side of the issue. Well, I think they are doing a horribly job...but I can't say I would have done much better, since I've never been in their shoes, though history shows it is possible. I wouldn't have started using terrorism, certainly...perhaps that's what civilization is really about? You know, if certain Palestinians had been suicide bombing just Isreali military installations instead of just easily accessible random civilians, perhaps things would be a lot different in the world's outlook on Palestine. Perhaps if there were no people like you who consider it brave, we wouldn't have terrorism at all. Hmmm...I think EVERYONE would be better off now, including the people of the nations associated with terrorists.
Anyways, that's most of the disagreement I had with you. Please read it with an open mind and your ego tucked away.
Pardon me for not identifying myself, I'm on limited Internet access due to my extended hospital stay.
7. "We don't want to piss off the people that control 90% of the world's oil reserves and thus control whether we get to continue our extravegant American lifestyle's". What? Well let's just go to your later post condemning U.S./UN for what we did to Palestinians...hmm...well, what if they pissed us off by just being there? Well, they shouldn't have obviously since we have a much bigger military than them. Gee, that's a pretty indefensable stand, isn't it? It's strange...the Palestinian question isn't as simple as you made it out (though your point isn't completely invalid), yet the issue of the U.S. bowing to Middleast countries simply because they control so much is very simple...we shouldn't. It is simply a clearly bad reason, perhaps the worst, for us to not "piss off" a country when the issue is terrorism. Take a look at yourself...you're a poster child for what the terrorists would love to turn every American into (assuming a MiddleEast bent, as the news seems to confirm quite strongly, thank you) as a result of these actions. Again, I say this not for your views on Palestine, but on your reply to 7.
15. "What exactly is cowardly about this attack? They sacrificed their lives for a cause they believed in, and they did so in a very direct manner (I'm not sure how you could get any more direct, short of trench warfare.)"
Hmm...brave, cowardly, or insane? Good or evil? If someone gives no notice to their own life and saves another, that is brave. If they give no notice to their life to drag race down a highway, they are insane (perhaps stupid is more accurate). If they give no notice to their lives to kill others (on purpose), they are cowardly. Hmmm...why do I say this? Well, because..is suicide brave? No, that's not the first word to come to mind is it? Though it can be for certain reasons. Killing thousands of people you don't know, and who aren't trying to kill you, isn't one of those reasons....why? Because dealing with issues this way is COWARDLY. Why wasn't it soldiers? Because it is too hard to kill soldiers. Civilians are much easier to kill in quantities. Never mind that the people who have to live in the world the suicide bomber leaves behind at his choice pretty uniformly live a worse life...including the people he presumably wanted to die for. Hmm...actually, wait...aren't many of these people doing this for religious beliefs, convinced (I mean CONVINCED) by some corrupt interpretation of their religion that they'll be rewarded in the afterlife (I mean above and beyond "just" living a good and decent life, and I mean the kind of good and decent life that can be lived in abject poverty, and is much harder than simply dying for anyone)...what's brave about that?
"Dropping a missile out of the back of a plane that's going faster than the speed of sound, now THAT's cowardly and believe it or not we do it every other day somewhere in the Middle East (of course, this isn't news so you never hear about it.)"
Wow, never served in the military, have we? Never been subject to being ordered into harm's way? Never trained years to perform well once there? Perhaps you have done all this...and you still wouldn't have the right to uniformly condemn men and women who do the duty you so casually dimiss with contempt. You do realize that some of them don't come back, right? Putting yourself in that situation, especially when you have family you want to go back to, is not cowardly. I wish you would consider your positions on the US side of this issue with more than the stupid (sorry, it really fits) callousness you display here.
"Also, you seem to be jumping the gun here. ..."
Didn't read the post...he/she almost definitely was, but so are you by dismissing them...and the reasons you give don't sound too well reasoned either. You basically sound like someone who sees people making an extreme argument on one side of the issue, go ahead and make points, mostly valid, criticizing them, and then merrily go on your way making foolish statements on the OTHER extreme of the issue. Pretty common on the internet, because you don't get immediate feedback. Hopefully you'll give my points some honest thought instead of sticking to your guns blindly in order to defend your ego (even more common on the internet).
"Right now the only people you can blame are the men and women that run the United States government, without them the middle east would not even be in this volitile situation and, if they are indeed responsible, this situation could have been easily avoided.... Hell, a year ago at this time we were on the verge of peace in the middle east"
Oh really...when was the last time YOU tried to avoid a situation like this? A former ambassador, are we? On the Counter-Terrorist Task Force, are we, or should we just ignore the many attempts that have gone before this on your say so, "just because"? Or are you talking out your ass about an issue you don't really know about? Hey, you're probably responding to some people who did the same thing, but it doesn't excuse you, now, does it? Perhaps it isn't so easy to solve the world's problems as you think. That's not to say that wrong hasn't been done, but that isn't to say wrong hasn't been done on BOTH sides...or are you really DEFENDING terrorism as a valid practice of statecraft? BTW, I do not heartily approve of our side of the "Palestinian question". I also think that there are many horrified Palestinians who aren't on videotapes, in contrast to the jubilant dancing Palestinians broadcast today...but it doesn't excuse it, does it? I feel the same way when I've seen some Americans act just as contemptibly, with perhaps a bit more specific shame. But I didn't think anyone should have gone out and shot the disgusting Americans, just as I don't think similar should happen to those Palestinians. But those people, and the terrorists they celebrate, represent the worst in humanity, present in all countries, not because of the reasons for their dissatisfaction with the US, but the method of addressing that dissatisfaction that they executed in one case, and are celebrating in the other.
37. "The US's missiles have missed: hit schools, hospitals and other such innocent buildings. This is known as collateral damage and is considered common place in most American air strikes, missile bombardments, and other military operations, who are the cowards now (we've even coined a phrase)?"
Yep, collateral damage is pretty horrible...yet, I'm sure our cowardly serviceman just love it when it happens. I'm sure they're glad they get the excuse to INTEND to kill civilians, just like terrorists. I think you are a bit confused in that cowardly label you throw around...or do you really mean that NOT intending to kill civilians is more cowardly? You know what is pretty horrible, too? Putting civilians in military targets, and putting military targets INTENTIONALLY near to schools and hospitals. Hmm...strange how in the U.S., the government tries to DEFEND it's people, not USE their lives in such a fashion in hopes of political leverage. BTW, I make it clear I'm talking about Sadam only here...I can't even picture Palestinians doing this...the difference being that I think the Palestinian leadership actually cares about it's people, although I don't think they are doing the best job they can, even considering their side of the issue. Well, I think they are doing a horribly job...but I can't say I would have done much better, since I've never been in their shoes, though history shows it is possible. I wouldn't have started using terrorism, certainly...perhaps that's what civilization is really about? You know, if certain Palestinians had been suicide bombing just Isreali military installations instead of just easily accessible random civilians, perhaps things would be a lot different in the world's outlook on Palestine. Perhaps if there were no people like you who consider it brave, we wouldn't have terrorism at all. Hmmm...I think EVERYONE would be better off now, including the people of the nations associated with terrorists.
Anyways, that's most of the disagreement I had with you. Please read it with an open mind and your ego tucked away.
Pardon me for not identifying myself, I'm on limited Internet access due to my extended hospital stay.
You are outraged. You cry out for irrational and radical measures. You are the many, the arrogant, the American; with your harsh words and ill-mannered language you bash about and scream pointing the blame on anyone who might look to be Indian, Iranian or Arabian in bloodline. Hollywood has tainted your views; we as free-born Americans know so little about these proud people and find it so easy to create a demonized image of their ways. Movies depict Arabians, Iranians, and many others of the "Middle Eastern" bloodlines as AK-47-wielding shepards and wild-eyed terrorists seeking out nuclear warheads and newscrews. I can't expect eeryone to understand where I'm going with this. But the point is the blame is unfairly placed upon entire countries because of the voluntary ignorance of the middle-aged working-class American. You would see yourselves as untouchable, indestructable, perhaps even infalliable.
"We're America; we're right because a whole bunch of us got mad and said so!" Such a depressing outlook on the rest of the world. How many of you have toured to other countries and said to the Mom & Pop shopkeeper "How much is that in *REAL* money?" You hold yourselves so high, as if the rest of the world's currency meant no more to you than Monopoly money sticking to the tires of your SUV. As a wise teacher said- "A traveller lives and learns while walking the path; A tourist goes to Taiwan, stays at the Hilton and orders a hamburger." I currently hold the honor of being one of this man's disciples for my senior year of high school. I would come to his class for many years to come if I would be permitted just to hear his aquired wisdom. I am not worthy of whatever the source might be.
These are sensitive times that require the compassion and open mindedness and wonder of the traveller. There are those of the media-demonized "Middle-Eastern" bloodlines who now fear for there lives: They fear being beaten in the streets, fearing that just one of the dozens of death threats or bomb threats might hold true. Before you pick up the phone, dial to disable Caller ID, and threaten to end the lives, hopes and dreams of hopeful couples, enterprising scholars, innocent families and the 9-5 sallaryman bacheoler: Grow up. Grow *the fuck* up. Admit you've never even seen a real working bomb. Admit you have no clue how to even eject the clip from that nickel plated Uzi-clone you saw in some Hong Kong blood-opera flick. Your ignorance makes you harmles and at the same time worthless. Now put down the damn phone and let them quiver in relative peace.
You call yourselves Americans, I call you squeeling swine. I *am* a full citizen free-born right here in the United States. I have an expired ID provided by our beloved Air Force by my father, a crash-truck mechanic only months from full retirement. Yet with all the screaming, rioting, and for the love of [your God not mine]: a fist fight between upper-middle-class white American adults over who gets use the gas pump before the price per gallon goes up another cent; I am ashamed to call myself American and have long ago vowed to move to Kyoto, Japan as soon as I can afford it. If I have my way my children won't even learn English. I had sushi for the first time last night. "S'ayonara han-ba-ga" I'm ready. Let *them* land. Anything to make me less American than you drooling losers sloshing to and fro the fridge and TV set.
Yet in the face of this tragedy, one must look to the sky and wonder with a tear in the eye. "Why was this done?" "What have we done to deserve this?" So take a big sniff, wipe your nose (please don't blow in public, oroface management in full-view is rather grotesque) and look me square in the eye with a straight face for a moment.
* "W H Y"
When you fill out your census forms, tax returns, job applications- what religion do proudly proclaim on those pieces of paper? They cannot all be listed here, and I would no doubt alienate many. Let's assume that the majority of readers claim to be Christian (I, for this period will allow myself to pause for a fit of hysterical laughter while bashing upon my withering keyboard, but you must keep a straight face... Okay I'm done). You go to church for two hours per Sunday, preach the contents of your horribly contradicting Bible within those confines, while outside you impose your own ultra-conservative Bible-beating pinhole-minded viewpoints on others and maybe pray an average of two and a half times per day...
Yet the rest of this time, it is money that controls your lives, rations your sanity and happiness to you in bi-weekly paychecks, determines your daily activities and limits your "quality time" with your "family". Your value and social status among your local community is greatly determined by the quality and nature of your material possessions while your so-called Christian [stifling a snort] children, your beautiful, talented, open-hearted children, wear the cross around their necks and join the in-crowd, taking their "friends" out to lunch at Burger Thing, gossiping about the wierd girl while bleaching their hair and changing into their "Princess today; Goddess tomorrow" half-shirts. You are a Materialist, and so am I. <So am I...>
Only years ago, the World Trade Center was first bombed. The objective was to destroy it. Our Muslim friends were tring to save their Christian brethren from the grasp of Materialism. Throughout history the greatest of the world's wonderous structures have been built to honor the religions of a civilization. The Pyramids, Mecca, many of the "Great Wonders of the World", all dedicated to the spiritual purisuit of fulfillment and enlightenment- a taste of heaven. Yet in our society and that of other world commercial trading powers, our greatest structures are built in the name of money. On September 11, 2001 aprox. 9:40 it happened again.
Two commercial aircraft with nearly full tanks of fuel collided with the World Trade Center towers. These were the first targets hit and the primary. I was the first in my classroom to notice that the second building on the NEWS was collapsing much as CNN.com describes as "a peeling banana". By destroying these iconic representations of America's capitalist materialism, these brave soldiers against the secularist ways hoped to destroy our tightwad perception of the flesh realm. Americans simply hold too much value in human life and money, and not at all enough value in human experience. These "terrorists" were willing to make a sacrifice that may actually benefit future generations. You won't even give up your fossil-fueled vehicles for two generations so that electrical cars and mechanically efficient bicylces can replace them, these people forfeit their lives for something they know will be hated. No wonder the love-to-hate-them Middle East is rejoicing in certain regions.
If our economy does crumble to the ground like so much concrete, steel, and glass, we may once again call our elders by the honorific titles they deserve, children may stop defying their parents, and we may remember just what is important in our pointless lives. I love you all, and I will cry this out in the streets until the stones scatter my skull- to bring you into the light. Stay with me. Your patience (My working e-mail address will be at the bottom, it is the only one I will respond to or even read, and I will try to respond to everyone of your comments.)
* "AN ACT OF COWARDACE"- Of Iron Men and Iron Souls
Sacrificing your life, your family, and your future to perform a hated deed in hopes that future generations will comprehend your reasoning is simply not an act of cowardace. By using words like "coward" our president hopes to gain the popularity by moral outrage. Using and abusing the collective conciousness and will of the crowd has been the greatest outrage of all during this. To call these men who died alongside those whom they slew "cowards" is exactly the same as calling any kamikaze pilot who mopped the deck of a battle ship after running out of ammo a coward. It is the same as calling anyone who ever jumped on a grenade a coward. Anyone who ever took a bullet, defended their post- behind the front counter of a gas station, pushed a friend out of harms way only to replace them; would be a coward in this definition as well.
On the other side of this, those who die in unfortunate accidents are not all heros, no more the deer that falls to a hunter's bow (or *sigh* rifle). It is those who die on their knees because sudden injury has made them unable to stand while fighting the enemy at the walls in the name of those too rich or too weak to fight for themselves who die heros. It is those who sacrifice their lives and small fortunes for a better future, for the benefit of a stranger, for honor without glory, who die heros. It is those who take an enemy into their house and love them as friends who are heros.
I am not an innocent child, bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, blindly shaking my finger at the public's redneck reaction. In the face of this attack, I weep for the firefighters alone and any soldier who must now guard a foreign US embassy.
* FINAL WORDS
Do I commend these men for their actions? It is a question I cannot answer myself. But know this: I would have shot the aircraft into oblivion mindful of where the missed shots went if I could have been there ready and able, same as anyone else. The only flag I shall carry over my head is the banner of my own family, and that of my beloved, a powerful symbol of the family that is to come; and I will defend these things to the death. Threaten my family and I will die to see their safety. If we go to war I will enlist. I will fight to defend my home. In the air, in the streets, in the kitchen where resides this computer. I will use fists, feet, steak knives and vintage whiskey bottles defending my place of refuge to the end until bullets and greasy envelopes force hot metal through my flesh bursting organs, shattering bone, spilling blood and sending a screaming conciousness into the next world. Just as long as my family is safe. So long as in the end, there can be peace again.
* * *
I honestly expect no one to read this far. You have better things to do and your hatred may blind you to the message I am trying to convey. Instead of your hatred, allow your sense and reasoning to reflect on this. Yes, you have loved and lost. You watched "them" enter the buildings and them become smeared along the collapsing walls. You witnessed firefighters enter the building, bravery being the last thought on their minds, and watched them simply vanish while sweaty politicians butcher the truth on national television writing them off as "missing". Never before in the history of the world has such a well coordinated attack of terrorism graced a peace-loving nation. There *should* be vengeance, there *should* be revenge, there *should* be a "calculated response"; and there will be. "There shall be no distinguishment between those responsible for the attack and those harboring them" quoth our president. We should *not* tolerate terrorism and *should* respond with terror-invoking actions of our own.
But at the same time there are people out there right now beating a veiled woman to death. There is a crisp, shaven man in a fine $2400 suit sitting at home about to call a university ethnic community with a threat on their lives. And these people are no better. And on the other side, people in the dark of night fumble through a translation dictionary trying to paint "Safe House" in Aribac on a banner to put in view of their front yard. These are sensitive times. We ask your patience.
-Zombi Z
LindseysZombiZ@hotmail.com
"We're America; we're right because a whole bunch of us got mad and said so!" Such a depressing outlook on the rest of the world. How many of you have toured to other countries and said to the Mom & Pop shopkeeper "How much is that in *REAL* money?" You hold yourselves so high, as if the rest of the world's currency meant no more to you than Monopoly money sticking to the tires of your SUV. As a wise teacher said- "A traveller lives and learns while walking the path; A tourist goes to Taiwan, stays at the Hilton and orders a hamburger." I currently hold the honor of being one of this man's disciples for my senior year of high school. I would come to his class for many years to come if I would be permitted just to hear his aquired wisdom. I am not worthy of whatever the source might be.
These are sensitive times that require the compassion and open mindedness and wonder of the traveller. There are those of the media-demonized "Middle-Eastern" bloodlines who now fear for there lives: They fear being beaten in the streets, fearing that just one of the dozens of death threats or bomb threats might hold true. Before you pick up the phone, dial to disable Caller ID, and threaten to end the lives, hopes and dreams of hopeful couples, enterprising scholars, innocent families and the 9-5 sallaryman bacheoler: Grow up. Grow *the fuck* up. Admit you've never even seen a real working bomb. Admit you have no clue how to even eject the clip from that nickel plated Uzi-clone you saw in some Hong Kong blood-opera flick. Your ignorance makes you harmles and at the same time worthless. Now put down the damn phone and let them quiver in relative peace.
You call yourselves Americans, I call you squeeling swine. I *am* a full citizen free-born right here in the United States. I have an expired ID provided by our beloved Air Force by my father, a crash-truck mechanic only months from full retirement. Yet with all the screaming, rioting, and for the love of [your God not mine]: a fist fight between upper-middle-class white American adults over who gets use the gas pump before the price per gallon goes up another cent; I am ashamed to call myself American and have long ago vowed to move to Kyoto, Japan as soon as I can afford it. If I have my way my children won't even learn English. I had sushi for the first time last night. "S'ayonara han-ba-ga" I'm ready. Let *them* land. Anything to make me less American than you drooling losers sloshing to and fro the fridge and TV set.
Yet in the face of this tragedy, one must look to the sky and wonder with a tear in the eye. "Why was this done?" "What have we done to deserve this?" So take a big sniff, wipe your nose (please don't blow in public, oroface management in full-view is rather grotesque) and look me square in the eye with a straight face for a moment.
* "W H Y"
When you fill out your census forms, tax returns, job applications- what religion do proudly proclaim on those pieces of paper? They cannot all be listed here, and I would no doubt alienate many. Let's assume that the majority of readers claim to be Christian (I, for this period will allow myself to pause for a fit of hysterical laughter while bashing upon my withering keyboard, but you must keep a straight face... Okay I'm done). You go to church for two hours per Sunday, preach the contents of your horribly contradicting Bible within those confines, while outside you impose your own ultra-conservative Bible-beating pinhole-minded viewpoints on others and maybe pray an average of two and a half times per day...
Yet the rest of this time, it is money that controls your lives, rations your sanity and happiness to you in bi-weekly paychecks, determines your daily activities and limits your "quality time" with your "family". Your value and social status among your local community is greatly determined by the quality and nature of your material possessions while your so-called Christian [stifling a snort] children, your beautiful, talented, open-hearted children, wear the cross around their necks and join the in-crowd, taking their "friends" out to lunch at Burger Thing, gossiping about the wierd girl while bleaching their hair and changing into their "Princess today; Goddess tomorrow" half-shirts. You are a Materialist, and so am I. <So am I...>
Only years ago, the World Trade Center was first bombed. The objective was to destroy it. Our Muslim friends were tring to save their Christian brethren from the grasp of Materialism. Throughout history the greatest of the world's wonderous structures have been built to honor the religions of a civilization. The Pyramids, Mecca, many of the "Great Wonders of the World", all dedicated to the spiritual purisuit of fulfillment and enlightenment- a taste of heaven. Yet in our society and that of other world commercial trading powers, our greatest structures are built in the name of money. On September 11, 2001 aprox. 9:40 it happened again.
Two commercial aircraft with nearly full tanks of fuel collided with the World Trade Center towers. These were the first targets hit and the primary. I was the first in my classroom to notice that the second building on the NEWS was collapsing much as CNN.com describes as "a peeling banana". By destroying these iconic representations of America's capitalist materialism, these brave soldiers against the secularist ways hoped to destroy our tightwad perception of the flesh realm. Americans simply hold too much value in human life and money, and not at all enough value in human experience. These "terrorists" were willing to make a sacrifice that may actually benefit future generations. You won't even give up your fossil-fueled vehicles for two generations so that electrical cars and mechanically efficient bicylces can replace them, these people forfeit their lives for something they know will be hated. No wonder the love-to-hate-them Middle East is rejoicing in certain regions.
If our economy does crumble to the ground like so much concrete, steel, and glass, we may once again call our elders by the honorific titles they deserve, children may stop defying their parents, and we may remember just what is important in our pointless lives. I love you all, and I will cry this out in the streets until the stones scatter my skull- to bring you into the light. Stay with me. Your patience (My working e-mail address will be at the bottom, it is the only one I will respond to or even read, and I will try to respond to everyone of your comments.)
* "AN ACT OF COWARDACE"- Of Iron Men and Iron Souls
Sacrificing your life, your family, and your future to perform a hated deed in hopes that future generations will comprehend your reasoning is simply not an act of cowardace. By using words like "coward" our president hopes to gain the popularity by moral outrage. Using and abusing the collective conciousness and will of the crowd has been the greatest outrage of all during this. To call these men who died alongside those whom they slew "cowards" is exactly the same as calling any kamikaze pilot who mopped the deck of a battle ship after running out of ammo a coward. It is the same as calling anyone who ever jumped on a grenade a coward. Anyone who ever took a bullet, defended their post- behind the front counter of a gas station, pushed a friend out of harms way only to replace them; would be a coward in this definition as well.
On the other side of this, those who die in unfortunate accidents are not all heros, no more the deer that falls to a hunter's bow (or *sigh* rifle). It is those who die on their knees because sudden injury has made them unable to stand while fighting the enemy at the walls in the name of those too rich or too weak to fight for themselves who die heros. It is those who sacrifice their lives and small fortunes for a better future, for the benefit of a stranger, for honor without glory, who die heros. It is those who take an enemy into their house and love them as friends who are heros.
I am not an innocent child, bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, blindly shaking my finger at the public's redneck reaction. In the face of this attack, I weep for the firefighters alone and any soldier who must now guard a foreign US embassy.
* FINAL WORDS
Do I commend these men for their actions? It is a question I cannot answer myself. But know this: I would have shot the aircraft into oblivion mindful of where the missed shots went if I could have been there ready and able, same as anyone else. The only flag I shall carry over my head is the banner of my own family, and that of my beloved, a powerful symbol of the family that is to come; and I will defend these things to the death. Threaten my family and I will die to see their safety. If we go to war I will enlist. I will fight to defend my home. In the air, in the streets, in the kitchen where resides this computer. I will use fists, feet, steak knives and vintage whiskey bottles defending my place of refuge to the end until bullets and greasy envelopes force hot metal through my flesh bursting organs, shattering bone, spilling blood and sending a screaming conciousness into the next world. Just as long as my family is safe. So long as in the end, there can be peace again.
* * *
I honestly expect no one to read this far. You have better things to do and your hatred may blind you to the message I am trying to convey. Instead of your hatred, allow your sense and reasoning to reflect on this. Yes, you have loved and lost. You watched "them" enter the buildings and them become smeared along the collapsing walls. You witnessed firefighters enter the building, bravery being the last thought on their minds, and watched them simply vanish while sweaty politicians butcher the truth on national television writing them off as "missing". Never before in the history of the world has such a well coordinated attack of terrorism graced a peace-loving nation. There *should* be vengeance, there *should* be revenge, there *should* be a "calculated response"; and there will be. "There shall be no distinguishment between those responsible for the attack and those harboring them" quoth our president. We should *not* tolerate terrorism and *should* respond with terror-invoking actions of our own.
But at the same time there are people out there right now beating a veiled woman to death. There is a crisp, shaven man in a fine $2400 suit sitting at home about to call a university ethnic community with a threat on their lives. And these people are no better. And on the other side, people in the dark of night fumble through a translation dictionary trying to paint "Safe House" in Aribac on a banner to put in view of their front yard. These are sensitive times. We ask your patience.
-Zombi Z
LindseysZombiZ@hotmail.com
#323
Komrade = TROLL
Don't give him any satisfaction guys. No grammar, no spelling, no critical thought...
Komrade = TROLL
Don't give him any satisfaction guys. No grammar, no spelling, no critical thought...
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