SAG-AFTRA Objects to AI Darth Vader

It says "we celebrate the right of our members and their estates to control the use of their digital replicas," but the actions of SAG-AFTRA suggest otherwise, as the performance artist union has filed a complaint with the US National Labor Relations Board over the recent news that Fortnite now features Darth Vader's voice recreated by AI. The union objects, despite this being something James Earl Jones approved of before he died. The complaint, filed against Epic subsidiary Llama, suggests that in making this arrangement with the Jones estate, the company is altering the deal:

Within the past six months, the Employer, by its agents and representatives, failed and refused to bargain in good faith with the union by making unilateral changes to terms and conditions of employment, without providing notice to the union or the opportunity to bargain, by utilizing AI-generated voices to replace bargaining unit work on the Interactive Program Fortnite.
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19.
 
Re: SAG-AFTRA vs. AI Darth Vader
May 20, 2025, 13:03
19.
Re: SAG-AFTRA vs. AI Darth Vader May 20, 2025, 13:03
May 20, 2025, 13:03
 
SAG-AFTRA is altering the deal, pray that it doesn't alter it any further succeed.

Sounds very much like they are trying to use something very high profile to get more traction, even if they don't have a stake in the deal, as a way to promote awareness. Not a good look when they resort to doing crappy things like this but the video game industry does just as bad, if not worse, when the tables were turned. See: recent the Marathon game graphics debacle.
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18.
 
Re: SAG-AFTRA Objects to AI Darth Vader
May 20, 2025, 12:42
Jivaro
 
18.
Re: SAG-AFTRA Objects to AI Darth Vader May 20, 2025, 12:42
May 20, 2025, 12:42
 Jivaro
 
Timmeh wrote on May 20, 2025, 12:20:
Squirmer wrote on May 20, 2025, 00:17:
If James Earl Jones signed over the rights to his voice in the full knowledge it would be become the butt of jokes in some warped AI version of Darth Vader in a shitty videogame, that's one thing. But I have a feeling he had actual films and TV in mind.

1. Fortnite is not a "shitty" video game.

2. JEJ had a sense of humor, i know its hard to believe. I think he would get a kick out of Darth Vader talking smack to video gamers.

3. He nor Dath Vader in this game not even remotely "the butt of jokes". He walks around and roasts the living shit out of players as they are playing.

All of this. Fortnite might not be your thing, but it's a popular and professionally produced AAA game that is raking in the players and the money.
I can't speak to JEJ sense of humor, but going by easter eggs in other games and blooper reels in movies, I am struggling to see what he would object to in this game. I have completed the Vader quest this season and the whole battle pass for this season. I have run around with Vader in my squad a few times now. It's pretty cool with the "hot mic" thing. They don't just have him recognize your speech and answer questions. There was a long silence between my gaming partner and I while we were stalking another duo. Vader started encouraging the conversation by asking us questions and criticizing my character by name (Chewbacca). My partner had the Anakin skin on....and that was a whole other level of funny conversation between him and Vader. He refers to people by their character name when wearing any Star Wars skin. It's a fun collection of small touches for SW fans and I am sure it's selling lots of SW skins in their store.

That doesn't mean some of it doesn't violate some sort of legal agreement, I wouldn't know. I am just having a hard time seeing how from a player's perspective.
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Re: removed
May 20, 2025, 12:30
Prez
 
17.
Re: removed May 20, 2025, 12:30
May 20, 2025, 12:30
 Prez
 
I can't shake the feeling that this is SAG-AFTRA being the short nerdy kid in the back jumping up and down waving his arms and hoping that people remember that he's still around...

We're complaining about a goofy Darth Vader voice in a tween game now????
"The assumption that animals are without rights, and the illusion that our treatment of them has no moral significance, is a positively outrageous example of Western crudity and barbarity. Universal compassion is the only guarantee of morality."
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16.
 
Re: SAG-AFTRA Objects to AI Darth Vader
May 20, 2025, 12:20
16.
Re: SAG-AFTRA Objects to AI Darth Vader May 20, 2025, 12:20
May 20, 2025, 12:20
 
Squirmer wrote on May 20, 2025, 00:17:
If James Earl Jones signed over the rights to his voice in the full knowledge it would be become the butt of jokes in some warped AI version of Darth Vader in a shitty videogame, that's one thing. But I have a feeling he had actual films and TV in mind.

1. Fortnite is not a "shitty" video game.

2. JEJ had a sense of humor, i know its hard to believe. I think he would get a kick out of Darth Vader talking smack to video gamers.

3. He nor Dath Vader in this game not even remotely "the butt of jokes". He walks around and roasts the living shit out of players as they are playing.
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removed
May 20, 2025, 12:06
15.
removed May 20, 2025, 12:06
May 20, 2025, 12:06
 
* REMOVED *

This comment was deleted on May 20, 2025, 12:10. Reason: Spam (rule 5)
14.
 
Re: SAG-AFTRA Objects to AI Darth Vader
May 20, 2025, 11:47
Jivaro
 
14.
Re: SAG-AFTRA Objects to AI Darth Vader May 20, 2025, 11:47
May 20, 2025, 11:47
 Jivaro
 
I mean, I know I am oversimplifying, but if Epic pushed it out in a way that violates or changes the deal, I get it. The union would be challenging to make sure that their members can make these arrangements, and expect that the terms of the deals remain unchanged after their death. If they are just dressing up their complaint, so they can complain about one of their members signing their voice away to AI because they are trying so hard to fight AI voicing, that's dumb.
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13.
 
Re: SAG-AFTRA Objects to AI Darth Vader
May 20, 2025, 10:11
13.
Re: SAG-AFTRA Objects to AI Darth Vader May 20, 2025, 10:11
May 20, 2025, 10:11
 
Nope I don't agree at all to the complaint. I was very much in SAG-AFTRA's side regarding the need for VA to have control of their performances so that a company can't train AI to do their job without their permission, but this is a completely different matter. Here the actor himself before he died gave the rights to his performance to his estate, then the estate allowed the game to use it so as far as I am concerned there was no need to even talk to SAG-AFTRA. Even if you consider that James Earl Jones was under the SAG-AFTRA rules, the estate is NOT so nothing about it applies. You might be able to argue that another VA who can mimic Vader's voice are out of work but that was always going to be the case once the VAs are given the rights to their performance. A VA can no longer mimic James Earl Jones' voice and be "Darth Vader" because weather it's AI or a person trying to mimic the sound, the rights outside of "fair-use" are now spoken for by his estate.

What is now interesting is how long will it take till the SAG-AFTRA group tries to enforce some kind of membership fee on companies using AI voice performances or they won't allow the VA to work for those companies because they are using "non union" AI voices.
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12.
 
Re: SAG-AFTRA Objects to AI Darth Vader
May 20, 2025, 09:33
El Pit
 
12.
Re: SAG-AFTRA Objects to AI Darth Vader May 20, 2025, 09:33
May 20, 2025, 09:33
 El Pit
 
NKD wrote on May 19, 2025, 23:06:
I make it a point to never object to Darth Vader, AI or otherwise. Historically it isn't a smart choice.
Right. Or he will alter the deal. Shocked2 Outtahere
...we yet realize that America's leadership and prestige depend, not merely upon our unmatched material progress, riches and military strength, but on how we use our power in the interests of world peace and human betterment.
-Dwight D. Eisenhower
11.
 
Re: SAG-AFTRA Objects to AI Darth Vader
May 20, 2025, 07:27
11.
Re: SAG-AFTRA Objects to AI Darth Vader May 20, 2025, 07:27
May 20, 2025, 07:27
 
jdreyer wrote on May 20, 2025, 07:14:
MoreLuckThanSkill wrote on May 20, 2025, 06:42:
Another day, another step closer to a fatal level of unemployment for the human race.

"But it's only voice actors!" Good luck in the wasteland, people.
That's why we invented UBI. So we could all eat while AI and robots do all the work.
I agree, but good luck on seeing anything approaching a liveable UBI in our lifetimes. We and the next 3-4 generations will work in the factories, toil in the mines, die in the wars, or provide 'services' to the trillionaires.

That's my dystopian rant for the day.
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10.
 
Re: SAG-AFTRA Objects to AI Darth Vader
May 20, 2025, 07:14
10.
Re: SAG-AFTRA Objects to AI Darth Vader May 20, 2025, 07:14
May 20, 2025, 07:14
 
MoreLuckThanSkill wrote on May 20, 2025, 06:42:
Another day, another step closer to a fatal level of unemployment for the human race.

"But it's only voice actors!" Good luck in the wasteland, people.
That's why we invented UBI. So we could all eat while AI and robots do all the work.
RIP RedEye9. We miss you.
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9.
 
Re: SAG-AFTRA Objects to AI Darth Vader
May 20, 2025, 06:42
9.
Re: SAG-AFTRA Objects to AI Darth Vader May 20, 2025, 06:42
May 20, 2025, 06:42
 
Another day, another step closer to a fatal level of unemployment for the human race.

"But it's only voice actors!" Good luck in the wasteland, people.
Avatar 54863
8.
 
Re: SAG-AFTRA Objects to AI Darth Vader
May 20, 2025, 04:32
8.
Re: SAG-AFTRA Objects to AI Darth Vader May 20, 2025, 04:32
May 20, 2025, 04:32
 
There is a clip of AI Vader online, saying that only the first and second trilogies have any value, and that anything that came after that in his mind doesn't really exist
AI Vader is kind of cool.

Not sure how I feel like about them making an AI Vader though, I mean if AI ever gets to Artificial General Intelligence, having a Vader template somewhere, might kind of color it's outlook and morality on things

This comment was edited on May 20, 2025, 05:05.
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7.
 
Re: SAG-AFTRA Objects to AI Darth Vader
May 20, 2025, 01:33
7.
Re: SAG-AFTRA Objects to AI Darth Vader May 20, 2025, 01:33
May 20, 2025, 01:33
 
Squirmer wrote on May 20, 2025, 00:17:
If James Earl Jones signed over the rights to his voice in the full knowledge it would be become the butt of jokes in some warped AI version of Darth Vader in a shitty videogame, that's one thing. But I have a feeling he had actual films and TV in mind.

He signed it over to his estate, who signed a new AI related contract.
But I get ya.
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6.
 
Re: SAG-AFTRA Objects to AI Darth Vader
May 20, 2025, 00:17
6.
Re: SAG-AFTRA Objects to AI Darth Vader May 20, 2025, 00:17
May 20, 2025, 00:17
 
If James Earl Jones signed over the rights to his voice in the full knowledge it would be become the butt of jokes in some warped AI version of Darth Vader in a shitty videogame, that's one thing. But I have a feeling he had actual films and TV in mind.
5.
 
Re: SAG-AFTRA Objects to AI Darth Vader
May 19, 2025, 23:55
5.
Re: SAG-AFTRA Objects to AI Darth Vader May 19, 2025, 23:55
May 19, 2025, 23:55
 
The tech is already pretty good. Not something you would make a narrative driven title with yet, but it 100% can fill barks and voices for background NPCs. Only a matter of time till it reaches that level, however.

Union is doing what it has to in order to survive because even though VO isn’t the lion’s share of a project’s budget, it’s enough to make the executives salivate. Especially with something like the Vader concept where you can’t used canned lines or live actors.

Sort of a lost cause, sadly. Even if the US and EU passed strong legislation against the tech, it would just move to Eastern countries with less concerns about VAs. Hopefully some small part of the industry survives and there is still work to be had in indie and more passion driven spaces.
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4.
 
Re: SAG-AFTRA Objects to AI Darth Vader
May 19, 2025, 23:06
NKD
4.
Re: SAG-AFTRA Objects to AI Darth Vader May 19, 2025, 23:06
May 19, 2025, 23:06
NKD
 
I make it a point to never object to Darth Vader, AI or otherwise. Historically it isn't a smart choice.
Do you have a single fact to back that up?
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3.
 
Re: SAG-AFTRA Objects to AI Darth Vader
May 19, 2025, 22:01
3.
Re: SAG-AFTRA Objects to AI Darth Vader May 19, 2025, 22:01
May 19, 2025, 22:01
 
I agree with the previous two commenters, even though I think human art should for the most part be produced by humans. I think that the union is making a stink as either a negotiating position or just to make noise to avoid normalization of AI use. They don't really have a leg to stand on here otherwise.
RIP RedEye9. We miss you.
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2.
 
Re: SAG-AFTRA Objects to AI Darth Vader
May 19, 2025, 21:13
Jim
2.
Re: SAG-AFTRA Objects to AI Darth Vader May 19, 2025, 21:13
May 19, 2025, 21:13
Jim
 
IMO unethical AI is when stolen content is used to produce new content. In this case the estate is using the actors voice to produce money for the estate. That sounds like an ethical use to me. The legal questions would be if the estate is a part of or subject to sag-aftra agreements. If not, they can pound sand,
1.
 
Re: SAG-AFTRA Objects to AI Darth Vader
May 19, 2025, 20:53
1.
Re: SAG-AFTRA Objects to AI Darth Vader May 19, 2025, 20:53
May 19, 2025, 20:53
 
The more I read about this it seems like the union wants to block AI from being used for vo at all and I don't think they're going to get that.
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