yonder wrote on May 18, 2025, 22:48:
As for stuff like Q&A budget... I suspect that criticizing it for being so comparatively small means you don't know development. You get assembly done first, then you squash and optimize. The bugs that are being fixed are being fixed in the coding stage. We're not at Q&A stage yet for 90% of the game.

There's tons of valid criticisms. Q&A budget ain't one of them.

1) Q & A (Question and Answers) is not the same thing as QA (Quality Assurance)

2) Nowhere in CIG's financial disclosure is QA broken out into its own category or line item. It's part of development. However, there is a separate line item for G & A, which is General and Administrative expenses which cover things like rent and power bills.

People need to stop "pledging" to this project to try and kick them into gear to finish.

What I've been wondering ever since they passed $65mil and basically stopped with stretch goals, was there ever any remote chance of them completing the game with the funding goals that were met? - the goals that say "with <$x> we will release a product that does <y>" I wondered that at $100,$200,$300 and then as release kept being delayed was just "wtf?"

However, if you have a business model bringing in $100mil/year just selling concepts and moderately updating/upgrading the alpha each year, why would you ever release it? They can maintain the game with no guarantees of player experience because it's in alpha.

As far as I was aware:
- There won't be a subscription.
- You won't be able to buy ships for real money after release. Has this changed? Will a real money store exist to enable you to buy in-game currency or more? Have they backpedalled and announced continued monetisation beyond just buying the retail release?

It would be silly to release a game at retail and dry up that $100/m year source just for an extra $400mil in sales or so without a consistent long-term revenue stream.

This all assumes they can release the game in a playable retail-release state that is more than just a huge tech demo and has actual fun, consistent game-play loops.

RogueSix wrote on May 18, 2025, 20:14:

Xeth Nyrrow wrote on May 18, 2025, 19:03:

jdreyer wrote on May 18, 2025, 18:49:

The Half Elf wrote on May 18, 2025, 14:25:
They are running out of money fast. This bullshit and also the sale of the Idris ship and kits (which were both said to not to be released until SQ42 was released) proves this.

And here I thought nothing would tell Ion Storm to hold their beer.

It would be interesting to see how much of that $800M was spent on actual development. 25%?

Optimistic of you. Maybe 25% of 25%! If they have indeed spent anything North of $100 million then they have also been robbed. I actually think that is what is going on, they are paying way too much for so little talent/results. I'm surprised there haven;t been any leakers who have left CIG to spill the beans. My guess is they get a nice severance package to keep quiet.

Nah. Their spending has been considerable over the years. They have been running studios in L.A., Austin, Manchester and Frankfurt with hundreds of employees for many years now. They also fully acquired Canadian (Montreal) Turbulent in 2023.

CIG themselves have actually published a pretty extensive financial report for 2023.

What's interesting is that it includes income and expenses data all the way back to 2012. It also confirms that they had 1,085 yaps to feed by the end of 2023.

Some quick and dirty math: They spent over $150 million on marketing alone since 2012, $380+ million on salaries, $83+ million on contract work/outsourcing, $133 million on the all important "other" dev costs (beer, hookers, blow? ), ~$13 million on Q&A (why am I not surprised this is one of the lowest items? ) and then a lot of dough that I'm too lazy to sum up right now on Capex.

Chris is definitely a very rich guy and, as I posted below, by his own admission treating himself to whatever he considers a typical C-level salary but CIG has definitely been a big multi-national corp for many years and it has eaten money alive.

As we can see from their spendings, it actually is mostly a well-oiled marketing machine first and foremost. It is selling the dream of the "BDSSE" to gullible fools (I was one of them in 2012 but that was BEFORE things got crazy) with deep pockets. What is completely unfathomable to me is that people are still falling for it after all these years of little and late output... and especially after all the blatant lies.

Well I should say they are also robbing themselves by paying out so much and getting so little in return. As much as we talk about this being a scam, I actually don't think it's a scam by the purest definition but rather a Hanlon's Razor situation. I think Chris Roberts actually believes in his, "vision" but is just so poorly able to execute on it, even with nearly unlimited money. He's not an idiot and knows how fickle gamers are so he made sure to get his cut in the process.

Kosumo wrote on May 18, 2025, 21:26:
RogueSix, why did you back it way back then? Chris Roberts was still Chris Roberts..... Freelance is all anyone needed to know how this scam would turn out.

I was young middle-aged and naive .

Well, hindsight is always 20/20 but, no, back in 2012 it was not clear at all that it would turn into the mother of all clusterfucks. I was prepared for massive delays due to Roberts' history at Origin. I lol'ed at the 2014 date (and got flamed by Roberts fanbois who said that he knows project management better than me and that the game would definitely be done when Chris says it would be... yup... who was right and who's laughing now, dumbasses?!? ).

But no one could really know in 2012 that Roberts would be this crazy and dishonest.

We need to remember that there was a gradual feature creep. It was a process driven by stretch goals and the like. It didn't all go to shit over night. If you'd ask me when things spiraled out of control, I would say it was well into 2013.

For example, let us remember the original promise in 2012: The original pledge campaign that started on 10/10/2012 was supposed to be the ONLY time window when you could pledge for ships at all. This campaign would have ended in November 2012 and no one would have ever been able to purchase a ship again. CIG would lock themselves in and work on the game with the funds they acquired from the pledge campaign (like pretty much all crowdfunding/KS devs).
That was the original deal. There was merely the plan to launch a cash shop (real currency for virtual currency) once the game would have gone live.

That one was the first promise that flew out the window when Roberts realized during the initial campaign that ships were the huge money maker. And there was a poll that allegedly confirmed the community's desire to continue the pledge campaign.

It was all a gradual softening and dissolution of original proposals. Roberts shifted the goal posts like a pro and the batshit insane community cheered him on while he was doing it because he sold them on his "vision"... which also kept changing and fluctuating all the time, depending on how much money was available... remember the $6 million stretch goal when he said that the game could now be done with "all the bells and whistles" ... well, it's 13 years later and I sure as shit ain't seen neither bell nor whistle yet, Chris... .

Here:

Six million was what it would take us to build the game we were imagining with all the bells and whistles we wanted included. Well, here we are with just over eight hours to go and that impossible goal where everything is unlocked is suddenly in sight. At six million you'll launch the game with 100 systems, a full orchestral score and a free copy of the first Squadron 42 mission disk, Behind Enemy Lines.

Keep the Star Citizen circus rolling!

This whole thing was built up like televangelism: show us how much you love God the game and believe and give give give to prove your love.
All doubters had to be satan lovers and only wanted to see the holy church CIG fall.
Keep your faithful whales happy with fake small miracles like miracle healings never seen before server meshing and handmade worlds that will soon be made even better by AI and produced by the 100s.

In the long run, belief slowly fades away and questions get asked. And then it's time to either leave the town and set up your circus church tent in another (does not work if your town consists of gamers from all parts of the world) or grab the money and run and hide.

Star Citizen has reached the endgame level and things finally get very exciting.

Except RDR2 and GTA6 are being made with the companies money. They are taking the risk.

Chris Roberts...... just takes the money and no risk.

Very scummy man.

I want to pre-empt by saying I've been against this scheme the entire time. I also, however, believe it's important to criticize correctly.

For example, look at other games the same scale that SC is allegedly aiming for. 1000 employees is on the small side. 12 years of on the long side.

Cut down the budget OR team size of RDR2 or GTA6 or the bigger recent CoD games and they'd be buggy messes too.

Those are significantly better-managed companies because they have actual discipline.

But a massive game that's 75% complete, to use and illustrative number, is NOT going to feel like anything other than a buggy pile of shit.

As for stuff like Q&A budget... I suspect that criticizing it for being so comparatively small means you don't know development. You get assembly done first, then you squash and optimize. The bugs that are being fixed are being fixed in the coding stage. We're not at Q&A stage yet for 90% of the game.

There's tons of valid criticisms. Q&A budget ain't one of them.

RogueSix, why did you back it way back then? Chris Roberts was still Chris Roberts..... Freelance is all anyone needed to know how this scam would turn out.

Xeth Nyrrow wrote on May 18, 2025, 19:03:

jdreyer wrote on May 18, 2025, 18:49:

The Half Elf wrote on May 18, 2025, 14:25:
They are running out of money fast. This bullshit and also the sale of the Idris ship and kits (which were both said to not to be released until SQ42 was released) proves this.

And here I thought nothing would tell Ion Storm to hold their beer.

It would be interesting to see how much of that $800M was spent on actual development. 25%?

Optimistic of you. Maybe 25% of 25%! If they have indeed spent anything North of $100 million then they have also been robbed. I actually think that is what is going on, they are paying way too much for so little talent/results. I'm surprised there haven;t been any leakers who have left CIG to spill the beans. My guess is they get a nice severance package to keep quiet.

Nah. Their spending has been considerable over the years. They have been running studios in L.A., Austin, Manchester and Frankfurt with hundreds of employees for many years now. They also fully acquired Canadian (Montreal) Turbulent in 2023.

CIG themselves have actually published a pretty extensive financial report for 2023.

What's interesting is that it includes income and expenses data all the way back to 2012. It also confirms that they had 1,085 yaps to feed by the end of 2023.

Some quick and dirty math: They spent over $150 million on marketing alone since 2012, $380+ million on salaries, $83+ million on contract work/outsourcing, $133 million on the all important "other" dev costs (beer, hookers, blow? ), ~$13 million on Q&A (why am I not surprised this is one of the lowest items? ) and then a lot of dough that I'm too lazy to sum up right now on Capex.

Chris is definitely a very rich guy and, as I posted below, by his own admission treating himself to whatever he considers a typical C-level salary but CIG has definitely been a big multi-national corp for many years and it has eaten money alive.

As we can see from their spendings, it actually is mostly a well-oiled marketing machine first and foremost. It is selling the dream of the "BDSSE" to gullible fools (I was one of them in 2012 but that was BEFORE things got crazy) with deep pockets. What is completely unfathomable to me is that people are still falling for it after all these years of little and late output... and especially after all the blatant lies.

SC is basically a NFT platform.

NKD wrote on May 18, 2025, 19:17:
It's a 12 year dev cycle (and counting) with an peak headcount over 1000 employees. They are spending a shit ton of money just on salaries, probably constantly dumping money on equipment, and a notoriously lavish office. Almost all the money probably goes back into the studio, just in a very inefficient way because Roberts doesn't know how to run a studio and has no one telling him "Nah buddy its over, you ship in 6 months. Make it work." They have nothing to show for it, not because they are buying hookers and blow, but because their project is out of control.

For those interested in the topic, CIG does have a breakdown of their finances on their blog (at least, through 2022. Apparently they always run a couple years behind). Salaries make up about half of their expenses; marketing about 20% more. Now, you could argue the accuracy of the provided numbers but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. They've ramped up production over the past few years, but income hasn't increased to match.

Why their expenses are so high is a completely different issue --I've no doubt Roberts and the rest are paying themselves generous salaries, although I don't think that's the end-all of it-- but the ultimate take-away is that the project;s expenses are just out of control. Cloud Imperium Games has gotten used to endless money and built the game around that, with little plan on how to reach the end-game before the money runs out. Now that it is, CIG is getting desperate. Hence the rush to try and milk their whales even more than usual.

It's a 12 year dev cycle (and counting) with an peak headcount over 1000 employees. They are spending a shit ton of money just on salaries, probably constantly dumping money on equipment, and a notoriously lavish office. Almost all the money probably goes back into the studio, just in a very inefficient way because Roberts doesn't know how to run a studio and has no one telling him "Nah buddy its over, you ship in 6 months. Make it work." They have nothing to show for it, not because they are buying hookers and blow, but because their project is out of control.

jdreyer wrote on May 18, 2025, 18:49:

The Half Elf wrote on May 18, 2025, 14:25:
They are running out of money fast. This bullshit and also the sale of the Idris ship and kits (which were both said to not to be released until SQ42 was released) proves this.

And here I thought nothing would tell Ion Storm to hold their beer.

It would be interesting to see how much of that $800M was spent on actual development. 25%?

Optimistic of you. Maybe 25% of 25%! If they have indeed spent anything North of $100 million then they have also been robbed. I actually think that is what is going on, they are paying way too much for so little talent/results. I'm surprised there haven;t been any leakers who have left CIG to spill the beans. My guess is they get a nice severance package to keep quiet.

Jivaro wrote on May 18, 2025, 15:55:
I decided to load it up for the first time in over a year today. Here are my thoughts on the gameplay.

Never mind, you don't need my thoughts on the gameplay currently, they are the same criticisms as most experienced gamers and sane individuals. Chris Roberts is a con man and an embarrassment to the entire industry. I put 35 in the Kickstarter, but if this game comes out, I am not contributing to the player count. 800 million for what this pile of shit is today? Still no single-player game to even test? And the bugs.....holy shit....this is not a beta. This is alpha. Is it even that? Why is everything such a pain in the ass to do in this game? You have to know how to work around 5 bugs to accomplish anything. I would be embarrassed to work there. I would be embarrassed to still be giving them money. The cringeworthy nature of this entire thing makes it hard for me to even finish reading articles about it. What a shit show.

I really bought this for SQ42. Hopefully that gets released pretty soon. Seems closer than the PU.

I'm currently playing ED, and it's fantastic especially in VR. It started around the same time and has been continuously expanded. Scope is less ambitious, but what is there is bug free and completed for a small fraction of $800M. Also, i always play in solo mode. Hopefully SC will offer a PU solo option so I can explore without worrying about getting ganked by psychopaths.

MoreLuckThanSkill wrote on May 18, 2025, 14:29:
Every time I read about this scam, it exhausts me. How in the hell have they fooled enough people to raise $800 million? I would like to see some stats of how many early backers have already died, before this game ever reaches 1.0 .

Trump has made something like $3B off his meme crypto coin. At least there's something to show for SC.

The Half Elf wrote on May 18, 2025, 14:25:
They are running out of money fast. This bullshit and also the sale of the Idris ship and kits (which were both said to not to be released until SQ42 was released) proves this.

And here I thought nothing would tell Ion Storm to hold their beer.

It would be interesting to see how much of that $800M was spent on actual development. 25%?

.

This comment was edited on May 19, 2025, 10:05.

Some whales are leaving the pod! RED ALERT!

Jivaro wrote on May 18, 2025, 15:55:
I decided to load it up for the first time in over a year today. Here are my thoughts on the gameplay.

Never mind, you don't need my thoughts on the gameplay currently, they are the same criticisms as most experienced gamers and sane individuals. Chris Roberts is a con man and an embarrassment to the entire industry. I put 35 in the Kickstarter, but if this game comes out, I am not contributing to the player count. 800 million for what this pile of shit is today? Still no single-player game to even test? And the bugs.....holy shit....this is not a beta. This is alpha. Is it even that? Why is everything such a pain in the ass to do in this game? You have to know how to work around 5 bugs to accomplish anything. I would be embarrassed to work there. I would be embarrassed to still be giving them money. The cringeworthy nature of this entire thing makes it hard for me to even finish reading articles about it. What a shit show.

you know, I actually want to check this shit out, but It's not even in early access on Steam, and seems so complicated to install.... Li9ke make it Easy..... Like I am not putting in effort to get fucked,,, I fuck now.... I DO THE FUCKING! Yeah, I got to put in a bit of work, but..... Fuck what is Chris doing? even Mr. Smart thinks Robert got it all wrong at this point...

I decided to load it up for the first time in over a year today. Here are my thoughts on the gameplay.

Never mind, you don't need my thoughts on the gameplay currently, they are the same criticisms as most experienced gamers and sane individuals. Chris Roberts is a con man and an embarrassment to the entire industry. I put 35 in the Kickstarter, but if this game comes out, I am not contributing to the player count. 800 million for what this pile of shit is today? Still no single-player game to even test? And the bugs.....holy shit....this is not a beta. This is alpha. Is it even that? Why is everything such a pain in the ass to do in this game? You have to know how to work around 5 bugs to accomplish anything. I would be embarrassed to work there. I would be embarrassed to still be giving them money. The cringeworthy nature of this entire thing makes it hard for me to even finish reading articles about it. What a shit show.