"#53... Did you go to BS University? You seem to believe that political ideology and economic structure go hand in hand. I think you're the one that suffers from propaganda."


First of all, prove it (that it is I who suffer from propaganda).

Second, political structure determines economic structure. Capitalism and socialism are not compatible, and the free market does not work with communism or nazism (thus Red China and the Soviet Union both lack/ed a free market economy). Political structure is one of the primary branches of philosophy, economic structure sits under (and is determined by) the political structure. A free market cannot exist without freedom; a market forced to be free at the point of a gun (a contradiction) is not a free market - all forms of statism must use force (initiate force) to achieve their goals, thus none of them are compatible with freedom.

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"#53, you are talking out of your arse. You quote an impressive number of facts from the Nazi era, but in trying to equate that to Communism you completely fail to take account of the fact that the fundamental ideologies are diametrically opposed... why do you think one talks about "right-wing" and "left-wing"? It is true, that in extremism, both ideologies converge towards totalitarianism. That doesn't mean they're the same. Methinks you have gone totally overboard with your all-American commie witch hunt."


Communism and Nazism are not opposed, they are two rival gangs. I didn't say the were the same, I said they have the same philosophical basis.

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"You also failed to separate the theoretical foundations of an ideology from their implementation. I suggest you read Das Kapital before throwing Marx (a political philosopher and economist) in the same category as Hitler (a despot who murdered millions, for Chrissake!) That alone is enough to disqualify your post completely."


Marx' philosophy has murdered far more than "millions." In its implementation it has murdered *tens of millions*, from Red China to the Soviet Union, in gulags and outright executions.

I haven't failed to seperate the theoretical foundations from their implementation. And no, it isn't enough to disqualify anything of what I have said. Marx was a political philosopher, he provided the method of implementing what Stalin, and Hitler accomplished; their actions are the implementation of his philosophy.

Your first sentence points toward the classic argument that communism works in theory, but not in practice. Communism fails in practice because it does not work in theory.

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"And as for Kant: if you're not intelligent enough to read the original texts, then please refrain from passing judgement on this great thinker. His epitaph was (and I paraphrase): "There are two things that will never cease to amaze me - the glory of the firmament above, and the power of the moral imperative within." Does that sound like the grandfather of absolutist dictatorships to you?"


Oh Kant was definitely a genius, in his ability to attempt to destroy and undermine reason. You haven't refuted what I said about Kant, you've attempted to evade it. Kant believed that if you desired to gain a value (freedom, happiness, etc.), and you pursued it, you were immoral for pursuing that which you desired; he held that the virtuous is that which is done with complete selflessness, i.e. without any self interest. Kant held that an individual deserves moral credit only if his/her action is done from duty. Someone who is honest, because they are unwilling to compromise their integrity, but does not act honest out of 'duty' is not moral according to Kant; if an individual wants to be honest, that individual deserves no moral recognition according to Kant, but if that individual doesn't want to be honest, but is honest, then they do deserve moral reward.

Kant held that if there is any kind of reward involved, an action is no longer a virtue. So, if one proceeds to remain alive by their own productive effort, and receives the 'reward' of surviving, the person's actions are not a virtue; Kant banished one's effort in supporting one's own life from the realm of the virtous, thus it becomes okay to support your own life by the effort of others (i.e. to sacrifice others to your self, and your self to others; which is how statism functions).


Kant created the first philosophy of nearly pure self-sacrifice; it is no coincidence that individuals such as Marx who learned from (and followed) his philosophy have done such massive sacrificing.
This comment was edited on Sep 7, 14:00.