RogueSix wrote on Mar 24, 2025, 19:00:

jdreyer wrote on Mar 24, 2025, 18:02:

RogueSix wrote on Mar 24, 2025, 16:59:

_Cory wrote on Mar 24, 2025, 14:01:
I remember when 60 class meant sub-$300.

The comparisons to ye olde times are moot. Wafers cost a lot more these days, advanced tools (EUV lithography machines from ASML) cost a lot more, materials cost a lot more, specialist engineer salaries have gone up, everything is more expensive. The times of sub $300 60 class cards are over for good. Deal with it. Or don't... and buy a console (which have also become a lot more expensive over the years). Your choice.

But all the whining in the world is not going to bring back the old pricing as long as chips are being manufactured from silicon wafers on more and more advanced nodes that cost an arm and a leg to get them up and running, let alone produce decent yields for a commercially viable operation. Shit's complex and shit's expensive. A 28nm wafer was $5,000. A 3nm wafer is $18,000 and 2nm wafers could cost up to $30,000. The only way is up.

Sure, but there's also inflation and Nvidia's monopoly position increasing prices as well.

There is no nVidia monopoly (just because the vast majority of smart people prefer nVidia doesn't make them the sole supplier) and inflation is/was over (except for eggz ). Your Fed has lowered rates substantially several times in a row now. Y'all have 2.8% inflation which is far, far below the highs after the Ukraine war started in 2022. The world economy has adjusted throughout 2023 and 2024.
Of course, Agent Orange is hard at work on boosting inflation again so, yeah, it will probably go up again but inflation isn't a real factor in the current graphics card market. Huang himself has said that he doesn't expect short term effects from the tariffs (source).

We know what the wafer prices are. They have multiplied in recent years and there has been one TSMC price hike after another. Production is simply a lot more expensive than it used to be. If you look at nVidia's gross margin, you can see that it has only really exploded since about mid 2023 when the AI/DC hype train took off. Their margin has been pretty stable in previous years which tells us that nVidia only adjusted their prices in accordance with rising costs.

I know... socialists around here (and many other tech sites) expect nVidia to simply swallow the higher production costs and the TSMC price hikes while still selling at the old prices but that's not how economics work, kids.

Just because NVidia isn't the only player in the market doesn't mean they're not a monopoly. They have the controlling power in the market. That's the legal definition in the US.

And my point about inflation isn't just the past year, but going back to your point that the $300 60 class cards are gone for good. There's been around 30% inflation over the past decade.

RogueSix wrote on Mar 24, 2025, 16:59:
The times of sub $300 60 class cards are over for good. Deal with it. Or don't... and buy a console (which have also become a lot more expensive over the years). Your choice.

I like this thought experiment, because as PC gamers, comparing to console is a reasonable expectation.
Nvidia considers 60 and 70 class to be "mid-range", while 50 class and under to be "entry":

2006
PS3 = $600 USD (today dollars is $940)
GeForce 8800 GTX = $600
GeForce 8800 GT = $350

2013
PS4 = $400 USD (today dollars is $540)
GeForce GTX 770 = $400
GeForce GTX 760 = $250

2016
PS4 Pro = $400 USD (today dollars is $540?)
GeForce GTX 1070 = $380
GeForce GTX 1060 = $300

2020
PS5 = $500 USD (today dollars is $620)
GeForce RTX 3070 = $500
GeForce RTX 3060 Ti = $400

2024
PS5 Pro = $700 USD
GeForce 4070 Ti Super = $800 USD
GeForce 4060 Ti = $400

jdreyer wrote on Mar 24, 2025, 18:02:

RogueSix wrote on Mar 24, 2025, 16:59:

_Cory wrote on Mar 24, 2025, 14:01:
I remember when 60 class meant sub-$300.

The comparisons to ye olde times are moot. Wafers cost a lot more these days, advanced tools (EUV lithography machines from ASML) cost a lot more, materials cost a lot more, specialist engineer salaries have gone up, everything is more expensive. The times of sub $300 60 class cards are over for good. Deal with it. Or don't... and buy a console (which have also become a lot more expensive over the years). Your choice.

But all the whining in the world is not going to bring back the old pricing as long as chips are being manufactured from silicon wafers on more and more advanced nodes that cost an arm and a leg to get them up and running, let alone produce decent yields for a commercially viable operation. Shit's complex and shit's expensive. A 28nm wafer was $5,000. A 3nm wafer is $18,000 and 2nm wafers could cost up to $30,000. The only way is up.

Sure, but there's also inflation and Nvidia's monopoly position increasing prices as well.

There is no nVidia monopoly (just because the vast majority of smart people prefer nVidia doesn't make them the sole supplier) and inflation is/was over (except for eggz ). Your Fed has lowered rates substantially several times in a row now. Y'all have 2.8% inflation which is far, far below the highs after the Ukraine war started in 2022. The world economy has adjusted throughout 2023 and 2024.
Of course, Agent Orange is hard at work on boosting inflation again so, yeah, it will probably go up again but inflation isn't a real factor in the current graphics card market. Huang himself has said that he doesn't expect short term effects from the tariffs (source).

We know what the wafer prices are. They have multiplied in recent years and there has been one TSMC price hike after another. Production is simply a lot more expensive than it used to be. If you look at nVidia's gross margin, you can see that it has only really exploded since about mid 2023 when the AI/DC hype train took off. Their margin has been pretty stable in previous years which tells us that nVidia only adjusted their prices in accordance with rising costs.

I know... socialists around here (and many other tech sites) expect nVidia to simply swallow the higher production costs and the TSMC price hikes while still selling at the old prices but that's not how economics work, kids.

RogueSix wrote on Mar 24, 2025, 16:59:

_Cory wrote on Mar 24, 2025, 14:01:
I remember when 60 class meant sub-$300.

The comparisons to ye olde times are moot. Wafers cost a lot more these days, advanced tools (EUV lithography machines from ASML) cost a lot more, materials cost a lot more, specialist engineer salaries have gone up, everything is more expensive. The times of sub $300 60 class cards are over for good. Deal with it. Or don't... and buy a console (which have also become a lot more expensive over the years). Your choice.

But all the whining in the world is not going to bring back the old pricing as long as chips are being manufactured from silicon wafers on more and more advanced nodes that cost an arm and a leg to get them up and running, let alone produce decent yields for a commercially viable operation. Shit's complex and shit's expensive. A 28nm wafer was $5,000. A 3nm wafer is $18,000 and 2nm wafers could cost up to $30,000. The only way is up.

Sure, but there's also inflation and Nvidia's monopoly position increasing prices as well.

_Cory wrote on Mar 24, 2025, 14:01:
I remember when 60 class meant sub-$300.

The comparisons to ye olde times are moot. Wafers cost a lot more these days, advanced tools (EUV lithography machines from ASML) cost a lot more, materials cost a lot more, specialist engineer salaries have gone up, everything is more expensive. The times of sub $300 60 class cards are over for good. Deal with it. Or don't... and buy a console (which have also become a lot more expensive over the years). Your choice.

But all the whining in the world is not going to bring back the old pricing as long as chips are being manufactured from silicon wafers on more and more advanced nodes that cost an arm and a leg to get them up and running, let alone produce decent yields for a commercially viable operation. Shit's complex and shit's expensive. A 28nm wafer was $5,000. A 3nm wafer is $18,000 and 2nm wafers could cost up to $30,000. The only way is up.

I remember when 60 class meant sub-$300.

Nvidia rumors suggest it's working on two affordable GPUs to spoil AMD's party - TechRadar.

5060 is a "rumour" like Honda is manufacturing a new Civic.
Just because 5060 will have MSRP under $550 USD doesn't make it reasonable, much less "affordable".