Watch a few of Jayz2cents vids, ESP the most recent one on the 9950X3D... I watched one of the older ones on the 79XX series and solved my core parking issues long ago. It seems that may all be solved with new chipset drivers at least with the 99XX chips. Not sure what RogueSix has against anything xbox, but the way he speaks just sounds like some internet butt hurt troll. I have the xbox app on my system no issues and I do use it since I have both a PC and xbox and game pass.

/my2cents

Some very good discussions, thank you all.

I think at the end of the day, for me, when there’s a Microsoft requirement of any kind for hardware, that hardware lands on the permanently disavowed list.

@Sho

Thanks for the explanation. I'm not familiar enough with Linux to know how reliable that works. All I know is that a 30% miss rate (6/19 games requiring manual tuning) is kind of crappy and that a solution like Intel's Thread Director would be preferable because it has a much lower miss rate. The comparison is a bit moot anyway since there is no inter-CCD latency penalties on Intel, i.e. it is a far lesser issue on Intel CPUs when threads are allocated to a "wrong" core. In case threads get allocated to the 'E' cores then it is not such a big deal as threads getting allocated to the "wrong" CCD. The E cores are often underestimated, too. They are quite capable nowadays.

It's a shame that everything else about Intel CPUs makes them garbage but the hardware scheduling/thread director is something that AMD should have absolutely adopted a long time ago instead of relying on the craptastic GameBar and chipset drivers databases (plus Windows updates). To get the most out of a dual CCD X3D CPU, you have to constantly monitor and keep all three up to date at all times... or do a lot of manual checking/tuning.

BTW, the 19 games that are listed at ComputerBase for their CPU test parkour are: BG3, Cities Skylines 2, Cyberpunk 2077, Dragon's Dogma 2, F1 2024, Frostpunk 2, Ghost of Tsushima, Homeworld 3, Horizon Forbidden West, Marvel's Spider-Man 2, MSFS 2024, Outcast - A New Beginning, Star Wars Outlaws, Starfield, Warhammer 40K Space Marine 2, Avatar and Sensua's Saga Hellblade 2. Not exactly ancient or obscure games and SIX of them required manual intervention.

RogueSix wrote on Mar 11, 2025, 22:12:

Again: The problem is not the requirement to install a chipset driver. The issue is keeping the compatibility database "inside" the chipset drivers up to date which you can not even influence because you 100% depend on AMD in that regard (just like you depend 100% on M$ to keep the Shitbox GameBar garbage up to date). *That* is the problem.

This might be less problematic if you never play any new games/releases anyway but if you like playing new games (maybe even lesser known indie games) or if you do really crazy shit like participating in a Steam NextFest then good luck.
There is going to be a 100% chance that neither the GameBar nor your AMD chipset drivers will correctly recognize most of the game demos during a NextFest as a game application, i.e. you will have to do a ton of manual tuning to get the most out of your NextFest demos.

Sure, some people enjoy playing the manual core allocation game but personally I'm weird and I would rather focus my gaming time on the actual demos.

I agree with you that approaches based on a database of known processes is icky. This is unfortunately super prevalent especially in the Windows ecosystem (Windows itself and every GPU driver have massive dbs for apps/games that apply various quirks, sometimes for backward compat, other times for perfomance tuning). Of course every engineer prefers a generic, self-tuning approach, because it makes systems easier to predict and reason about, and is more future-proof in the face of unknown workloads.

The stuff I quoted is about what AMD has in place (on Linux, since I know this better than Windows) for the generic, db-less approach - a HW-driven way to classify threads at runtime based on their behavior, and allow the OS kernel scheduler to make useful decisions where to run them. Along with P-state-related mechanisms to handle core preferences dynamically based on their non-heterogenous characteristics.

Hopefully this is enough to make the system behave well decently. If not, I'd advocate for the other approach I mentioned toward the end, where, when the Steam client (or something else) launches a game into a cgroup (a cgroup is a way to track groups of processes and e.g. set quotas and other properties on them) that entire group just gets pinned on the V-Caches or has scheduler hints set, at launch time (and if they launch child processes into the same group the preference is inherited). This is then basically for all games via the context they get launched in, and doesn't need anything db-based or running permanently.

If this also still isn't good enough, then it's time for an API that lets games itself announce a preference for whether they believe they can benefit from being distributed over more cores vs. keeping their threads together on performance cores, as an additional hint to either the OS scheduler or a launcher. This is the one part that could be db-augmented for older games that won't see updates, but then those probably aren't perf-critical enough to warrant the complexity.

Sho wrote on Mar 11, 2025, 21:03:

Simon Says wrote on Mar 11, 2025, 20:40:
Not to mention I also had to install an Intel driver on every Intel computer I ever owned...

Intel chipset drivers they're called. Took a few minutes, done.

But I guess that's too much of a bother for RogueSix...

Yeah, this is a bit of a nothing burger overall. CPU packages that have a mix of different cores with different performance profiles on them are here to stay, and all mainstream OS ecosystems have to address the scheduling problems they bring with them. Of course this is very much the situation in e.g. smartphone SoCs.

On Linux, AMD has the Heterogeneous Core Driver in the kernel that exposes the core characteristics and thread statistics/classifications to the scheduler to make smarter decisions. I.e. it's wrong that only Intel has a HW "Thread Director", the AMD HW also has HW-originated stats and classification decisions it can make available to the operating system kernel.

Their P-state driver also has dynamic "Preferred Core" handling and there's a sysfs interface to express a preference for e.g. frequency vs. cache.

When I worked on SteamOS-related stuff for the Steam Deck, we came up with a new mechanism to launch apps into dynamically-allocated Linux cgroups for group scheduling and tracking, and then it was patched into Plasma/Gnome/Qt/GTK and the Steam client to use. I think overall it shouldn't even be necessary with good code in the scheduler and sane defaults, but if need be it also wouldn't be too hard to tie it all together and make Steam pin games to the V-cache cores when launching a game by default (I've been out of it for a while, perhaps someone already did this in the meantime).

Some additional detail for those who are technically curious, for how the thread classification works:

The AMD Heterogeneous core design and Hardware Feedback Interface (HFI) provide behavioral classification and a dynamically updated ranking table for the scheduler to use when choosing cores for tasks.

Threads are classified during runtime into enumerated classes. Currently, the driver supports 3 classes (0 through 2). These classes represent thread performance/power characteristics that may benefit from special scheduling behaviors. The real-time thread classification is consumed by the operating system and is used to inform the scheduler of where the thread should be placed for optimal performance or energy efficiency.

The thread classification helps to select CPU from a ranking table that describes an efficiency and performance ranking for each classification from two dimensions.

The ranking data provided by the ranking table are numbers ranging from 0 to 255, where a higher performance value indicates higher performance capability and a higher efficiency value indicates greater efficiency. All the CPU cores are ranked into different class IDs. Within each class ranking, the cores may have different ranking values. Therefore, picking from each classification ID will later allow the scheduler to select the best core while threads are classified into the specified workload class."

(Source)

Again: The problem is not the requirement to install a chipset driver. The issue is keeping the compatibility database "inside" the chipset drivers up to date which you can not even influence because you 100% depend on AMD in that regard (just like you depend 100% on M$ to keep the Shitbox GameBar garbage up to date). *That* is the problem.

This might be less problematic if you never play any new games/releases anyway but if you like playing new games (maybe even lesser known indie games) or if you do really crazy shit like participating in a Steam NextFest then good luck.
There is going to be a 100% chance that neither the GameBar nor your AMD chipset drivers will correctly recognize most of the game demos during a NextFest as a game application, i.e. you will have to do a ton of manual tuning to get the most out of your NextFest demos.

Sure, some people enjoy playing the manual core allocation game but personally I'm weird and I would rather focus my gaming time on the actual demos.

This comment was edited on Mar 11, 2025, 22:24.

IDk, until it can successfully deliver reliable Voight-Kampff test results, I'll keep this i9 7960x

Timmeh wrote on Mar 11, 2025, 19:27:

RogueSix wrote on Mar 11, 2025, 18:46:

Slick wrote on Mar 11, 2025, 18:08:

Tony F. wrote on Mar 11, 2025, 16:04:
Wow, so what do you really think
Seems a little overly harsh, just saying, but that's just my opinion.
Of course, that's no implication you're not completely entitled to voicing your own view being the rascally Rogue that you are.

This is the same ol song from the 7950x3d. Until they add 3D V-cache on both dies, you're at the mercy of Windows as to weather it detects it properly or not. That being said, AMD is not the only one to blame here. Intel has equally banked on strange asymmetrical core layouts (P and E cores) which are always at the mercy of software understanding what to do with them.

Wrong. Say about Intel what you will and, yes, their CPUs are mostly complete fucking garbage (for other reasons than discussed here) these days BUT Intel have introduced a hardware scheduler (Thread Director) ages ago. The thread director partially decides on its own, and partially in conjunction with the Windows 11 software scheduler (close collaboration between INTC and MSFT on that end), which cores to use and it works almost flawlessly.

Yes, there is supposedly the occasional outlier and the rare hiccup but it is a far cry from the AMD shitshow where you have to make sure that GameBar is running and you have to keep your chipset drivers up to date at all times and then still monitor what is going on to be 100% sure that the cores are doing what they are supposed to do.

I have had a degenerating piece of shit 13900K for ~24 months and, while it was indeed a degenerating piece of shit, I never experienced a single issue with scheduling. Ever. That part just always worked perfectly thanks to Thread Director + the Win 11 scheduler (Win 10 might be a different story but if anyone still uses a vintage OS then that is their problem).

This is one thing that AMD should have copied ages ago. They should have long since introduced a hardware scheduler on their CPUs. Instead, they chose to make things even worse as, contrary to 7900X/7950X, even the non-X3D parts, i.e. 9900X/9950X, require the lame-ass GameBar to function correctly nowadays. Pathetic.

Riiiight. the best CPU performance by far is a "shitshow" because you have to install a driver. Because people who buy top of the line gaming CPUs don't know nothin about installing a drive right?

If you use the Xbox game app on your PC its automatically installed anyway. also they are releasing new motherboard drivers that remove the need for the xbox utility anyway.

REGARDLESS....

I have a 7950X3D and it took me all of a few minutes to download and install the xbox game bar 2 years ago and i have not had to think about it since then.

The idea that installing the xbox game bar or any other utility to improve CPU performance is an issue when nearly all of the PC gamers are already running Riva tuner, fraps, and updating GPU drivers every month already is RIDICULOUS.

Nothing RIDICULOUS about it at all. Being forced to run the Shitbox GameBar is an atrocious offense for which M$ should be dragged (by their nut sack) to the Court for Human Rights in The Hague.

Seriously, several review sites (e.g. TechPowerUp, ComputerBase) have listed the GameBar requirement as a con because it is. It fucking sucks. First thing I personally always uninstall after any clean Windows install is everything that is named "Xbox". I have a PC. Fuck off with that Xbox garbage from my PCMR4ever PC, motherfuckers! GameBar spyware/crapware is a complete no-go.

Secondly, I doubt that the millions of comments on forums from people who have issues to get scheduling to work correctly on their multi CCD CPUs are imagined. Again: German ComputerBase have a test parkour of 19 games (obviously mostly pretty current ones) and 6 of them would not work correctly in spite of GameBar and the most up-to-date chipset drivers installed because M$ is slow and lazy as fuck when it comes to keeping GameBar (which effectively works like a whitelist to tell the CPU which *.exe is a game) up to date.

So, 30% of games (6/19) needed manual tuning because M$ and AMD can not get their fucking shit together. That's an abysmal track record considering how long multi CCD CPUs have been around for now. FACT.
That is why I had the audacity to suggest in my previous post that AMD really should have borrowed a page from Intel's book with regard to a hardware scheduler.

AMD's "fix", because they know how much Shitbox GameBar sucks and how slow the assholes from M$ are with their updates, is the inclusion of a 'compatibility database' (another whitelist on top of the GameBar) in their chipset drivers.

If anyone wants to deal with all this crap and does not want to admit that a hardware scheduler would be a better idea then more power to you. Personally, I'm going to keep avoiding multi CCD CPUs like the plague and I will keep pointing out that Intel might be making crap CPUs but, credit where credit is due, their hardware scheduler is head and shoulders above AMD's craptastic "solutions" for "fixing" core allocation.

Or, as PC Perspective, put it at the end of their review...

These dual-CCD X3D launches fill me with equal parts excitement and dread, and generally leave me feeling that my OS configuration hygiene is lacking. I have a routine that works for every other CPU family I ever test, providing consistent, repeatable results. But with the Ryzen 9 9950X3D, as with the Ryzen 9 7950X3D before it, one must jump through quite a few hoops to get things working perfectly – and even then there can be software that isn’t correctly identified as a game, and thus does not initiate parking on the non-X3D cores. These multi-CCD X3D parts aren’t for novice users – and don’t even think about avoiding that recommended clean install of Windows.

The above gallery includes slides from AMD’s media presentation about these new processors, and if things like the AMD Provisioning Packages Service, 3D V-Cache Performance Optimizer, and Application Compatibility Database are configured and updated automatically so that your game is sure to work without any additional user configuration, then great.

Regardless of the work a user might be expected to do, when everything is set up correctly and the game is picked up properly, the Ryzen 9 9950X3D can provide a close approximation of the world’s best gaming CPU; but this part is more of an all-rounder than the Ryzen 7 9800X3D. The 9950X3D doubles the 9800X3D’s core count and can rip through multi-core workloads with ease. It is well behaved from both a power and thermal standpoint, offers a great gaming experience, and is a better CPU for content creators than anything from Intel right now.

Once again AMD has topped with their CPU lineup with a part that offers a tempting mix of both gaming and raw compute performance, but, until Windows is finally updated to correctly use these dual-CCD X3D parts without any additional setup, users will need to be diligent in their initial configuration to get the most out of them.

^ It all remains high maintenance shit, even by the admission of tech sites, and the many user complaints are definitely not imagined, but if you want to keep shutting your eyes and plugging your ears because your holy angel god-like super-brand AMD can do no wrong then be my guest. Doesn't change the actual cold, hard FACTS though .

Simon Says wrote on Mar 11, 2025, 20:40:
Not to mention I also had to install an Intel driver on every Intel computer I ever owned...

Intel chipset drivers they're called. Took a few minutes, done.

But I guess that's too much of a bother for RogueSix...

Yeah, this is a bit of a nothing burger overall. CPU packages that have a mix of different cores with different performance profiles on them are here to stay, and all mainstream OS ecosystems have to address the scheduling problems they bring with them. Of course this is very much the situation in e.g. smartphone SoCs.

On Linux, AMD has the Heterogeneous Core Driver in the kernel that exposes the core characteristics and thread statistics/classifications to the scheduler to make smarter decisions. I.e. it's wrong that only Intel has a HW "Thread Director", the AMD HW also has HW-originated stats and classification decisions it can make available to the operating system kernel.

Their P-state driver also has dynamic "Preferred Core" handling and there's a sysfs interface to express a preference for e.g. frequency vs. cache.

When I worked on SteamOS-related stuff for the Steam Deck, we came up with a new mechanism to launch apps into dynamically-allocated Linux cgroups for group scheduling and tracking, and then it was patched into Plasma/Gnome/Qt/GTK and the Steam client to use. I think overall it shouldn't even be necessary with good code in the scheduler and sane defaults, but if need be it also wouldn't be too hard to tie it all together and make Steam pin games to the V-cache cores when launching a game by default (I've been out of it for a while, perhaps someone already did this in the meantime).

Some additional detail for those who are technically curious, for how the thread classification works:

The AMD Heterogeneous core design and Hardware Feedback Interface (HFI) provide behavioral classification and a dynamically updated ranking table for the scheduler to use when choosing cores for tasks.

Threads are classified during runtime into enumerated classes. Currently, the driver supports 3 classes (0 through 2). These classes represent thread performance/power characteristics that may benefit from special scheduling behaviors. The real-time thread classification is consumed by the operating system and is used to inform the scheduler of where the thread should be placed for optimal performance or energy efficiency.

The thread classification helps to select CPU from a ranking table that describes an efficiency and performance ranking for each classification from two dimensions.

The ranking data provided by the ranking table are numbers ranging from 0 to 255, where a higher performance value indicates higher performance capability and a higher efficiency value indicates greater efficiency. All the CPU cores are ranked into different class IDs. Within each class ranking, the cores may have different ranking values. Therefore, picking from each classification ID will later allow the scheduler to select the best core while threads are classified into the specified workload class."

(Source)

Timmeh wrote on Mar 11, 2025, 19:27:
Riiiight. the best CPU performance by far is a "shitshow" because you have to install a driver. Because people who buy top of the line gaming CPUs don't know nothin about installing a drive right?

Not to mention I also had to install an Intel driver on every Intel computer I ever owned...

Intel chipset drivers they're called. Took a few minutes, done.

But I guess that's too much of a bother for RogueSix...

This along with a 9070XT (already on the way) is what I'm putting into my new build, which is going to see a mix of software dev (the extra cores are nice for long C++/Rust builds) and of course gaming, both mostly on Linux. It's my first new rig in a long time, pretty excited.

With 27" (my preferred size for a few reasons) 4K OLED launching a month ago as well to replay my midrange IPS stuck at 60Hz, it's truly like everything is lining up this quarter to pull the trigger.

RogueSix wrote on Mar 11, 2025, 18:46:

Slick wrote on Mar 11, 2025, 18:08:

Tony F. wrote on Mar 11, 2025, 16:04:
Wow, so what do you really think
Seems a little overly harsh, just saying, but that's just my opinion.
Of course, that's no implication you're not completely entitled to voicing your own view being the rascally Rogue that you are.

This is the same ol song from the 7950x3d. Until they add 3D V-cache on both dies, you're at the mercy of Windows as to weather it detects it properly or not. That being said, AMD is not the only one to blame here. Intel has equally banked on strange asymmetrical core layouts (P and E cores) which are always at the mercy of software understanding what to do with them.

Wrong. Say about Intel what you will and, yes, their CPUs are mostly complete fucking garbage (for other reasons than discussed here) these days BUT Intel have introduced a hardware scheduler (Thread Director) ages ago. The thread director partially decides on its own, and partially in conjunction with the Windows 11 software scheduler (close collaboration between INTC and MSFT on that end), which cores to use and it works almost flawlessly.

Yes, there is supposedly the occasional outlier and the rare hiccup but it is a far cry from the AMD shitshow where you have to make sure that GameBar is running and you have to keep your chipset drivers up to date at all times and then still monitor what is going on to be 100% sure that the cores are doing what they are supposed to do.

I have had a degenerating piece of shit 13900K for ~24 months and, while it was indeed a degenerating piece of shit, I never experienced a single issue with scheduling. Ever. That part just always worked perfectly thanks to Thread Director + the Win 11 scheduler (Win 10 might be a different story but if anyone still uses a vintage OS then that is their problem).

This is one thing that AMD should have copied ages ago. They should have long since introduced a hardware scheduler on their CPUs. Instead, they chose to make things even worse as, contrary to 7900X/7950X, even the non-X3D parts, i.e. 9900X/9950X, require the lame-ass GameBar to function correctly nowadays. Pathetic.

Riiiight. the best CPU performance by far is a "shitshow" because you have to install a driver. Because people who buy top of the line gaming CPUs don't know nothin about installing a drive right?

If you use the Xbox game app on your PC its automatically installed anyway. also they are releasing new motherboard drivers that remove the need for the xbox utility anyway.

REGARDLESS....

I have a 7950X3D and it took me all of a few minutes to download and install the xbox game bar 2 years ago and i have not had to think about it since then.

The idea that installing the xbox game bar or any other utility to improve CPU performance is an issue when nearly all of the PC gamers are already running Riva tuner, fraps, and updating GPU drivers every month already is RIDICULOUS.

Slick wrote on Mar 11, 2025, 18:08:

Tony F. wrote on Mar 11, 2025, 16:04:
Wow, so what do you really think
Seems a little overly harsh, just saying, but that's just my opinion.
Of course, that's no implication you're not completely entitled to voicing your own view being the rascally Rogue that you are.

This is the same ol song from the 7950x3d. Until they add 3D V-cache on both dies, you're at the mercy of Windows as to weather it detects it properly or not. That being said, AMD is not the only one to blame here. Intel has equally banked on strange asymmetrical core layouts (P and E cores) which are always at the mercy of software understanding what to do with them.

Wrong. Say about Intel what you will and, yes, their CPUs are mostly complete fucking garbage (for other reasons than discussed here) these days BUT Intel have introduced a hardware scheduler (Thread Director) ages ago. The thread director partially decides on its own, and partially in conjunction with the Windows 11 software scheduler (close collaboration between INTC and MSFT on that end), which cores to use and it works almost flawlessly.

Yes, there is supposedly the occasional outlier and the rare hiccup but it is a far cry from the AMD shitshow where you have to make sure that GameBar is running and you have to keep your chipset drivers up to date at all times and then still monitor what is going on to be 100% sure that the cores are doing what they are supposed to do.

I have had a degenerating piece of shit 13900K for ~24 months and, while it was indeed a degenerating piece of shit, I never experienced a single issue with scheduling. Ever. That part just always worked perfectly thanks to Thread Director + the Win 11 scheduler (Win 10 might be a different story but if anyone still uses a vintage OS then that is their problem).

This is one thing that AMD should have copied ages ago. They should have long since introduced a hardware scheduler on their CPUs. Instead, they chose to make things even worse as, contrary to 7900X/7950X, even the non-X3D parts, i.e. 9900X/9950X, require the lame-ass GameBar to function correctly nowadays. Pathetic.

probably a good time to get a 9800x3D, aside from the scams. Looking to buy direct from AMD, but they are sold out

Tony F. wrote on Mar 11, 2025, 16:04:
Wow, so what do you really think
Seems a little overly harsh, just saying, but that's just my opinion.
Of course, that's no implication you're not completely entitled to voicing your own view being the rascally Rogue that you are.

This is the same ol song from the 7950x3d. Until they add 3D V-cache on both dies, you're at the mercy of Windows as to weather it detects it properly or not. That being said, AMD is not the only one to blame here. Intel has equally banked on strange asymmetrical core layouts (P and E cores) which are always at the mercy of software understanding what to do with them.

IMO we're gonna have 12-core CCDs when we hit true 3nm 2x years from now from AMD, so 12-core 3D will be fine. I don't know if it's worth the headache to make 16/24-core "true" x3d chips right now. There's not really any games that would take advantage of it. AMD have clearly aimed their sights on best-in-class CPU "WITHIN REASON" ie. normal human pricing scheme.

Also Tony F. In a diff post you mention you lost your login deets, I'm curious, what was your username before?

I also was a "long time listener, first time caller" after reading this site for 5 years, then lurking the comments for another 5...

I think I'll just look at a Threadripper instead. Yeah, yeah "B...b...but MUH GAMEZ". That's the least interesting thing a CPU does for me.

Wow, so what do you really think
Seems a little overly harsh, just saying, but that's just my opinion.
Of course, that's no implication you're not completely entitled to voicing your own view being the rascally Rogue that you are.

95% the speed of the 9800X3D ok that’s negligible, but at 2x the power draw putting it up in horrendous intel 14th gen territory. At this high price that’s gonna be a no from me dog. It’s baffling to me why AMD bothers with 3d cache on their multi CCD chips those are really for workstation workloads.

* REMOVED *

This comment was deleted on Mar 11, 2025, 14:50. Reason: Spam (rule 5)

Multi CCD CPU = multi bullshit

I would never buy one of these because of the [redacted] GameBar requirement. Fuck M$ Xbox. Fuck Xbox GameBar. I have a PC and not a Shitbox, tyvm.

According to the review at German CB, they had to manually tune 6 out of 19 games in their test so GameBar updates are still slow as fuck (or simply missing as fuck) and you will have to constantly monitor whether a game runs on the correct CCD/cores. Yawn.

Exactly why I went with the 9800X3D which provides a hassle-free out of the box experience. You just plug & play and you lolhard@idjits who seriously believe they are getting a 16 COAR or 12 COAR 1337 G4M1IN CPU with 9950X3D or 9900X3D, respectively.

AMD is on a roll.