Rest and hope you feel better when you wake up, Prez. As always, it has been a pleasure.

I profoundly disagree. But thanks for talking with me. I'm feeling very weak and out of it.

Prez wrote on Sep 13, 2024, 15:24:
As you could read in my signature, I consider ALL life precious. Personally I value a dog's life, a cat's life, a bear, a wolf, or a falcon, all equally precious. I don't think that is egotistical. Organic life is exceedingly rare in an immense universe, making what there is extremely precious in my view.

That is an assumption without facts in evidence. We don't know, definitively, that organic life is rare in our own galaxy, let alone the entire universe. For that matter, we haven't even comprehensively explored our own solar system so there could be thermophilic lifeforms that exist in abundance on planets within the Sol system. All we have are theories based on the extremely minuscule amount of understanding we have gleaned in the last hundred years.

For all we know, organic life could be as plentiful as hydrogen in our local cluster.

But to narrow the scope, organic life isn't rare even on our own planet. There are 2.16 million individual species that we have named. Just named. There almost certainly many more in areas and environments that we can't reach yet and haven't discovered yet. 2.16 million species is pretty hard to describe as "rare".

Given how many times the US has executed people later discovered to be innocent, the death penalty should be off the table.

Prez wrote on Sep 13, 2024, 11:54:
Assassinating Hitler would only have meant new leadership for the Nazis; the war just wouldn't have suddenly ended.

This kind of thought experiment has always held a bit of fascination for me. In a book I mentioned previously "Replay", you follow a man who dies of a heart attack at 43, but then wakes up 25 years in the past, as himself. He wakes up in his freshman college dorm room. And everything seems to just a repeat, except for the fact he remembers the previous run through. Then at 43, he dies again -- and wakes up 18, at college. His replays include the early 1960s. In one of them he writes an anonymous letter to the FBI claiming to be Oswald and tells them he is going to assassinate the President. Oswald is arrested. But someone he has never heard of does the assassination in the same way he remembers Oswald doing it.

Now obviously he does make minor changes. He makes bets and makes money he never did previously. But it raises an interesting questions, is there a flow to time which would cause most major events to happen even if there was interference. Of course, it is all sci-fi hocus pocus but it is an interesting thought experiment.

As you could read in my signature, I consider ALL life precious. Personally I value a dog's life, a cat's life, a bear, a wolf, or a falcon, all equally precious. I don't think that is egotistical. Organic life is exceedingly rare in an immense universe, making what there is extremely precious in my view.

It wasn't meant to be loaded, merely to use examples that have wrought intentional harm and death upon others.

The fundamental we do not agree upon is the value of life. To me, life is intrinsically valueless. This planet alone is teeming with life. If we narrowed the scope of life to only address humanity, it doesn't get any more valuable. To start the creation of human life all you need is five minutes of slippery friction between two mucous membranes and an exchange of bodily fluids. That's it. We can't even claim scarcity as measure of value as there are 8 billion of us now and the population continues to grow daily. Prior to the current date, there have been ~117 billion people born since 190,000 BCE (roughly the rise of humans on Earth) (source).

But we humans, we are ridiculously egotistical. To the point of absurdity. We think by the very nature of existing that we are somehow valuable or precious. Over my life, I have seen justifications for this egotism in the claims of that we make and use tools, that we make art, that we show empathy, we figured out math, and so on. All while denying that other species that we slaughter with glee and abandon have shown the same abilities. Corvids, for example, use tools, can perform basic math, create their own songs, have families, and express emotion. We like to pretend, generally and barring weirdos who build their sociopathy around it, that we are not predators who have spent our entire existence killing everything that moved up to and including our own species. By this long tradition of self-delusion we convince ourselves that we are special, that we are valuable, and that life itself has meaning. Some of us even double down on the delusion and create mythology that has deities that used magic to bring us all in to existence and yet somehow deeply care for all 117 billion of us. None of that makes us special or precious.

Justice and revenge are inextricably intertwined. The whole concept of justice, dating back to Hammurabi codifying it for the first time that we know of, is based on revenge. You will suffer because you caused another to suffer. Either through the death penalty, losing a significant portion of your lifespan via incarceration, losing hours to community service, and/or losing resources you have accumulated. Justice is always a negative because it does not give, it only takes as balancing measure. We can't even claim justice as we practice it is devoid of emotion. If it were, we would not have victim impact statements. We court, if you'll pardon the pun, emotions in our application of justice. Revenge is never a logical endeavor. It is always based on emotion. Thus justice as humanity practices it in all of it myriad ways is revenge with a lovely set dressing applied to it. I'm not saying how we do it is right or wrong, only pointing out that the two are inseparable.Farming the application of justice out to a third party makes it no less based on revenge. It just provides distance and clean hands. What justice has done is prevent internecine warfare. It's a pressure relief valve, more or less.

Would I put someone to death for atrocities? Yes without blinking an eye and sleeping well the evening after. At the very least, the decision I have made will prevent further atrocities by that individual. I cannot undo what has already been done but I can excise a cancerous element. You cannot redeem cancer, you can only permanently stop it.

As for killing Hitler, it is an entirely pointless academic scenario. Killing Hitler would not have stopped World War 2 nor the Holocaust, both would have just taken different forms. The Allied Powers of World War I, and specifically the Treaty of Versailles, caused World War 2 and the Holocaust. You cannot starve and bankrupt a people in to compliance permanently. It's been tried numerous times through human history and every single time it fails. It fails because the population you're enforcing deprivation upon inevitably rises up, rebels, and goes on a bloody rampage. Even the allegedly righteous US has practiced this deprivation while claiming enlightenment and virtue. Reservations and concentratio... sorry "internment" camps come to mind. Every empire in human history has made this mistake and had to relearn that lesson.

So, in your view, the lives of Dahmer, Stalin, Pol Pot, and Bundy were as important as all of their victims? Am I reading that right?

It's a bit of a loaded question, but all in all not an unfair one. Fundamentally, yes. Lots of people shit on the idea, but I believe all life is precious. Every single one. At the time of their atrocities, their life is still precious. If you manage to unseat and capture them alive, what they have done cannot be undone. The question if their life is more or less valuable at that point is moot. I assume that you therefore are asking would I stay my hand if I had the chance to put an end to such a person's atrocities before they can commit more. I honestly don't know. On a conceptual level, the good of the many outweighs the good of an individual, and the blood of an innocent man is more precious than the blood of a tyrant. In real life, it isn't always that easy. Assassinating Hitler would only have meant new leadership for the Nazis; the war just wouldn't have suddenly ended. I highly doubt that the concentration camps would be closed the next day after his assassination.

So you captured someone and put a definitive stop to their atrocities. Do you sentence them to death? If so, why? For justice (some leaders are revered as deific and symbolically even allowing them to live can continue strife) or for revenge? I'm for the former and against the latter. As far as killing Hitler as a boy, well, let's first prove that time travel is not a physical impossibility (as many scientists say that it is) before we cross that bridge. Hypotheticals based on literal impossibility don't interest me enough to consider them seriously.

jdreyer wrote on Sep 12, 2024, 23:12:

Burrito of Peace wrote on Sep 12, 2024, 19:38:

Cutter wrote on Sep 12, 2024, 17:27:
Pretty soon the earth will be hot enough we'll all be walking around in shorts and tank tops only all the time anyway.

Speak for yourself. I'll be opting for the skant.

Commando mode, I'm sure. Just like a kilt.

Uggg Star Trek forcing that W0kE, CRT, DEI shit down our throats.. now wonder the show was canceled.

Prez wrote on Sep 13, 2024, 04:12:
But I will never be swayed by people wishing death on others or thinking that anyone's life is more important than another's.

So, in your view, the lives of Dahmer, Stalin, Pol Pot, and Bundy were as important as all of their victims? Am I reading that right?

Prez wrote on Sep 13, 2024, 09:54:
But seriously, if some of those comments didn't have you at least snickering, text me and I will send you a pic of me still wearing my bunny slippers. If that doesn't lighten you up, nothing will.

Oh Hell yeah, I did laugh at the stupidity.

Prez wrote on Sep 12, 2024, 22:53:
I will never, ever agree that certain people just need to die. That will sometimes be the only option left for the greater good, but I will not wish death on anyone, ever. As Tolkien prophetically said: "Many that live deserve death and some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be so eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the wise cannot see all ends."

EVERYONE deserves a chance at redemption.

Generally I feel the same way, but I am reminded of the doctor in The Dead Zone who, when asked if he would go back in time and murder Hitler before he came to power, knowing that no one would believe him when he explained why he did it, said: "I'm a man of medicine. I'm expected to save lives and ease suffering. I love people. Therefore, I would have no choice but to kill the son of a bitch."

Someone I follow on Threads posted today that on the day Trump dies, she's going to wheel her rolling bar out into the street and hand out free drinks. I replied: "There was a time when I would have said the same thing about Dick Cheney. The irony is that Dick Cheney and I will probably both be at your rolling bar. That's where we are today."

Cutter wrote on Sep 12, 2024, 17:34:
What's wrong with wishing people you hate were dead? We're all someone's asshole and we all deserve to die for myriad reasons. The world - and all life on it - would be far better off with most of humanity off of it.

I mean this seriously and not as a personal attack, I think you need some professional help if you actually believe this. You're sounding like a serial killer's diary with these comments.

But seriously, if some of those comments didn't have you at least snickering, text me and I will send you a pic of me still wearing my bunny slippers. If that doesn't lighten you up, nothing will.

I am not surprised by your answer. Surely it reflects the attitude of basically everyone to one degree or another. But I will never be swayed by people wishing death on others or thinking that anyone's life is more important than another's. It's easy for me since I don't have to worry about having friends and everyone thinks that I am nuts. You could pick apart my life and decide easily that I am not to be listened to as well. But I'd argue that universal compassion is healthier than selective hatred. To each his own.

jdreyer wrote on Sep 12, 2024, 23:12:

Burrito of Peace wrote on Sep 12, 2024, 19:38:

Cutter wrote on Sep 12, 2024, 17:27:
Pretty soon the earth will be hot enough we'll all be walking around in shorts and tank tops only all the time anyway.

Speak for yourself. I'll be opting for the skant.

Commando mode, I'm sure. Just like a kilt.

Skants actually do have an enclosed bottom part so probably not a good idea to go commando unless you like swamp ass or swamp crotch.

Prez wrote on Sep 12, 2024, 22:53:
I will never, ever agree that certain people just need to die. That will sometimes be the only option left for the greater good, but I will not wish death on anyone, ever. As Tolkien prophetically said: "Many that live deserve death and some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be so eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the wise cannot see all ends."

EVERYONE deserves a chance at redemption.

That's great and all from Tolkien but it's one thing to sit on your ass in a cozy room pounding away on a typewriter imagining clean scenarios that will never exist in the real word and quite another to watch people harm or kill other people simply due to the color of their skin, their gender, what is or is not underneath their pants, or any other characteristic. It's really easy to preach the moral high ground when a person has never gone face to face and toe to toe with the ugliest humanity has to offer*.

Redemption is when you are presented the opportunity to redress a mistake that you've made that affects others. It is not a get out of jail free card from the willful intent to damage or destroy another person based upon one's warped ideology or blatant disregard for the safety of others.Not now. Not ever. You (general "you"), as an adult, have every opportunity to change your ideology before you permanently impact another person. There is every opportunity to do so in every minute of the day. When you choose not, when you choose to injure, harass, or kill another human being because of that ideology, you're pretty fucking far from redeemable in my world. If society is willing to put down a dog that has bitten someone, it should be pretty damn well OK with the same approach to a human being who's done much worse.

*I am familiar with Tolkien's participation in the Battle of the Somme. His participation involved sitting his ass in the rear twice and serving as a signals officer for a brief amount of time before contracting trench fever and being sent back to Britain.

Burrito of Peace wrote on Sep 12, 2024, 19:38:

Cutter wrote on Sep 12, 2024, 17:27:
Pretty soon the earth will be hot enough we'll all be walking around in shorts and tank tops only all the time anyway.

Speak for yourself. I'll be opting for the skant.

Commando mode, I'm sure. Just like a kilt.

I will never, ever agree that certain people just need to die. That will sometimes be the only option left for the greater good, but I will not wish death on anyone, ever. As Tolkien prophetically said: "Many that live deserve death and some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be so eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the wise cannot see all ends."

EVERYONE deserves a chance at redemption.

Prez wrote on Sep 12, 2024, 21:50:
I'll be that loser who butts in with his opinion when no one agrees with him, but I vote for universal compassion where we mourn everyone killed and wish the absolute best for everyone. Not as sexy as all of the bickering I know, but it's not like I speak for a majority of people here. I'm the guy who wears bunny slippers out in public - I'm proven nuttier than a fruitcake.

Cute, fuzzy, pink bunny slippers at that! Anyone comment on them?

Despite my somewhat bellicose nature, I am generally a live and let live kind of guy. However, when a person, or group, unconditionally and blatantly advertises their desire to visit ill intentions, harm, and death on others without provocation...sorry, they have to die as a service to humanity. We will not proceed forward as a species with these malingerers acting as anchors.

And I don't even like fruitcake! Put that in your pipe and smoke it.