Eldaron Imotholin wrote on Sep 7, 2024, 12:16:
I guess ppl just don't notice that because they're too busy agreeing with eachother.

I guess you disregarded every word of my comment to you because you're too busy disagreeing with everyone.

I have never insulted you. When you have made a reasoned argument, I would agree in places, see your point in others, and provide a counter where I disagree. You have not debated in good faith in this thread however. You haven't really debated anything; it seemed that you would rather be argumentative and standoffish. I don't want you to leave - I consider you a decent person. But that is what I am seeing. I certainly don't feel inclined to engage when you are like you have been. I recognize that you are unfairly belittled and have unfair assumptions made about you, but you have done nothing but reinforce the reason that people do that to you in my opinion. I am living proof that you can change how people respond to you over time, but you didn't want to hear it.

Blue wrote on Sep 7, 2024, 11:26:

Eldaron Imotholin wrote on Sep 7, 2024, 10:23:

Blue wrote on Sep 7, 2024, 10:02:

Eldaron Imotholin wrote on Sep 5, 2024, 11:10:
With that, he cast light on the hill I'm fighting on; the hill that there's more to "woke" complaints than what the 4chan fools rant about.

It's a hill you're going to die on at this rate.

That's a witty oneliner Blue. Feel free to ban me, this is my last weekend here anyway, I've decided late last night. Hopefully though, you'll know that almost all of my comments where I'm "fighting on this hill" are reactionary. There's an echo chamber here, where dissent of the echo message is met with vitriol by a handful of patron overlords. Nobody have yet managed to quote or link to any thread or moment where my ideas were challenged. It's all ad hom attacks. Sorry for being a broken record, but I can't seem to hammer that fact home to people. Don't worry, I wonder why I give a shit, as well.

Trying to combat what you perceive as an echo chamber can lead to what we have here. You are on a campaign to change people's minds on a topic that you'll have to admit you are intractable on yourself. The fact that you can say "Sorry for being a broken record, but I can't seem to hammer that fact home to people" when others are unable to "hammer" any facts home to you suggests you are not seeing the big picture.

So now it's a crusade, and you're just fighting about the same topic with the same people. Regardless of original intent, that's pretty indistinguishable from a troll or other griefer, . It's growing quite tired, hence my "witty oneliner."

What facts does anyone try to hammer home to me then? That I'm "just not arguing in good faith", a bigot/racist/misogynist or all of the above? Or have I genuinely missed a counter-argument you're aware of? Crazy as this sounds, those are not rhetorical questions. How can I admit that I'm retractable (you mean hard-headed I think?) on this if my ideas have never been challenged?

Maybe I have a blind spot about this, and I'm actually missing something crucial, unless that crucial point equates the sentiment of "just shut the fuck up". Again, me hammering on about this is almost always reactionary. And when the ad homs come flowing in, it'll indeed derail. I just don't agree that that's on me.

Ps, clarification: when I said "hammer that fact home" in the earlier comment, I was talking about the fact that nobody has managed to prove my ideas were ever challenged. I didn't mean to say I believe my ideas are factual, and that I want to hammer those home 😂

PPS (and I know I'm all over the place), note the truth: I never just interject and start spewing about "wokeness", although ppl accuse me of the opposite. It's always thr theme of the ongoing discussion one way or another. That's what I mean with reactionary. I guess ppl just don't notice that because they're too busy agreeing with eachother.

This comment was edited on Sep 7, 2024, 12:27.

Eldaron Imotholin wrote on Sep 7, 2024, 10:23:

Blue wrote on Sep 7, 2024, 10:02:

Eldaron Imotholin wrote on Sep 5, 2024, 11:10:
With that, he cast light on the hill I'm fighting on; the hill that there's more to "woke" complaints than what the 4chan fools rant about.

It's a hill you're going to die on at this rate.

That's a witty oneliner Blue. Feel free to ban me, this is my last weekend here anyway, I've decided late last night. Hopefully though, you'll know that almost all of my comments where I'm "fighting on this hill" are reactionary. There's an echo chamber here, where dissent of the echo message is met with vitriol by a handful of patron overlords. Nobody have yet managed to quote or link to any thread or moment where my ideas were challenged. It's all ad hom attacks. Sorry for being a broken record, but I can't seem to hammer that fact home to people. Don't worry, I wonder why I give a shit, as well.

Trying to combat what you perceive as an echo chamber can lead to what we have here. You are on a campaign to change people's minds on a topic that you'll have to admit you are intractable on yourself. The fact that you can say "Sorry for being a broken record, but I can't seem to hammer that fact home to people" when others are unable to "hammer" any facts home to you suggests you are not seeing the big picture.

So now it's a crusade, and you're just fighting about the same topic with the same people. Regardless of original intent, that's pretty indistinguishable from a troll or other griefer, . It's growing quite tired, hence my "witty oneliner."

Blue wrote on Sep 7, 2024, 10:02:

Eldaron Imotholin wrote on Sep 5, 2024, 11:10:
With that, he cast light on the hill I'm fighting on; the hill that there's more to "woke" complaints than what the 4chan fools rant about.

It's a hill you're going to die on at this rate.

That's a witty oneliner Blue. Feel free to ban me, this is my last weekend here anyway, I've decided late last night. Hopefully though, you'll know that almost all of my comments where I'm "fighting on this hill" are reactionary. There's an echo chamber here, where dissent of the echo message is met with vitriol by a handful of patron overlords. Nobody have yet managed to quote or link to any thread or moment where my ideas were challenged. It's all ad hom attacks. Sorry for being a broken record, but I can't seem to hammer that fact home to people. Don't worry, I wonder why I give a shit, as well.

Eldaron Imotholin wrote on Sep 5, 2024, 11:10:
With that, he cast light on the hill I'm fighting on; the hill that there's more to "woke" complaints than what the 4chan fools rant about.

It's a hill you're going to die on at this rate.

Quboid wrote on Sep 6, 2024, 17:55:
https://images.hindustantimes.com/img/2022/07/16/original/picture-2_1657987511232.png

lolol
Thanks for finding that.

Look at those people resulting to ad homs once again, zero substance ever. They learned a new term and apply it every time, even when it doesn't make sense. If you think I'm "sealioning", quote a post of mine to prove it. You can't, it's just a childish knee-jerk because a handful of trolls decided I'm the bad guy and the sheep roll with it.

"This is what you're saying, and I disagree, because" never happens here somehow.

"Look!" the troll says "He wants to have the last word again!" 🖕

https://images.hindustantimes.com/img/2022/07/16/original/picture-2_1657987511232.png

We're all familiar with logical fallacies and rhetorical strategies like sealioning.
But what is it called when a person has to get the last comment in on a topic?
"Won't Let It Rest" syndrome?

Prez wrote on Sep 5, 2024, 11:49:
Beamer wasn't tacitly admitting you had a point. He was saying that it had a strong female character in it and the white men in it (historically accurately) were kind of dicks. Which is typical fodder for certain people to complain about. Aside from some dodgy dialogue that felt completely out of place, it was a great movie. And for the record, Prey was very much accused of being "woke". I watched 10 videos on it to see if anyone had a point. They didn't. Just "boogeyman syndrome" again.

And his feigned surprise was that it wasn't complained about enough. That's the crucial point, because my argument all the time -- with zero counter-arguments except ad homs -- is that if you can ignore the racists and misogynists, there's much more subtle complaints about wokeness that have NOTHING to do with racist ideas or misogynism.

For example, one common criticism is when established characters or storylines in beloved franchises are changed purely to align with contemporary social norms. This isn’t about resisting diversity; it’s about maintaining narrative and character integrity. Another example is when diversity is forced to the point that it flattens distinct cultures into one generic mix, ultimately diluting true diversity. Look at Rings of Power, where Middle-Earth seems to have undergone an inexplicable wave of multiculturalism, making it impossible to distinguish between characters from places like Númenor, Rohan, or Harad except by their armor. This isn’t authentic representation; it’s cosmetic diversity that feels inauthentic to the source material. Another example is how the show portrays Orcs -- ORCS!!!!!!!?!?!?! -- as having families, monogamous relationships, and even a sense of love that makes them fear going to war. It's fanfic at its worst and it directly contradicts Tolkien’s writings, where Orcs are depicted as a binary force of evil, created specifically for war and driven by a lust for violence. To suggest otherwise is not only a departure from Tolkien’s intent but also an attempt to reinterpret them through a modern lens of identity politics, framing Orcs as marginalized or oppressed. This is "wokeness" at work, projecting contemporary social narratives onto a fantasy world where they simply don’t belong.

I’ve learned that for some people, no example, no matter how nuanced, will be persuasive because any criticism of “wokeness” is seen as heresy. But my point stands: there are valid criticisms that aren’t rooted in hate, and dismissing them all as "boogeyman syndrome" is just as simplistic as the accusations they’re pushing back against.

This comment was edited on Sep 6, 2024, 07:14.

Prez wrote on Sep 5, 2024, 03:19:

Razumen wrote on Sep 5, 2024, 00:21:

Prez wrote on Sep 4, 2024, 20:48:
Well either your standards are too high, or you're not looking hard enough. If you're talking movies and TV, there are admittedly some quality gaps in certain genres. But gaming? I have been finding so many good games made in the last year or two that it's ridiculous. Just not from traditional "AAA" studios.

The softening of gaming over the years is an undeniable fact, made even more obvious when you look at how traditional gaming's profits has remained stagnant over the years, while mobile gaming has completely obliterated it. Companies aim for the biggest market, and that means making everything as inoffensive as possible, which means he get crap like Concord again and again.

...And yet I am denying it. Weird, huh?

Yes, there are always weirdos that deny reality.

Burrito of Peace wrote on Sep 5, 2024, 14:16:

Prez wrote on Sep 5, 2024, 11:49:
In that case, I will post a bunny slipper update. The delivery truck that they were on has caught fire and burned to the ground. Such a shame.

This is misinformation. The bunny slippers are whole and well and on their way to Prez's front door even as I type this.

Umm... no, it just hasn't updated yet on your internet. Everything is slower in Texas don't you know.

Prez wrote on Sep 5, 2024, 11:49:
In that case, I will post a bunny slipper update. The delivery truck that they were on has caught fire and burned to the ground. Such a shame.

This is misinformation. The bunny slippers are whole and well and on their way to Prez's front door even as I type this.

This thread hasn't been locked yet? Huh.

In that case, I will post a bunny slipper update. The delivery truck that they were on has caught fire and burned to the ground. Such a shame.

PS. Beamer wasn't tacitly admitting you had a point. He was saying that it had a strong female character in it and the white men in it (historically accurately) were kind of dicks. Which is typical fodder for certain people to complain about. Aside from some dodgy dialogue that felt completely out of place, it was a great movie. And for the record, Prey was very much accused of being "woke". I watched 10 videos on it to see if anyone had a point. They didn't. Just "boogeyman syndrome" again.

This comment was edited on Sep 5, 2024, 12:08.

"I just rewatched Prey, with my wife this time, who really enjoyed it. And I'm still surprised it didn't get more complaints prior." - Beamer

With that, he cast light on the hill I'm fighting on; the hill that there's more to "woke" complaints than what the 4chan fools rant about. That's why he shouldn't have been "surprised [Prey] didn't get more complaints prior".

And I keep using the "trigger words" because I don't let myself get bullied into other language that in the end will mean the same. It's really as simple as that.

DarkCntry wrote on Sep 5, 2024, 04:30:
Please don't bring up Tolkien in this discussion, there's absolutely nothing about any of the recent works that would cause him to roll any more than he already is just because of their sheer existence. Rings of Power may veer from established Lore but that is out of necessity and less about an agenda, in so much as Pete Jackson's versions of LOTR do the same. As a long time Tolkien fan (so much that I even took several years of course work on his writings), I actually accept the new media rendition simply because without it, most of the Professor's work would not be consumed by people due to the difficult prose he took. Do things annoy me about the changes made? Sure, but it's inconsequential in the grand scheme of things as I'm not the primary target for it.

I cannot disagree with you more, and I'm sure you'll have many disagreeing with you on this. Changing legendary source material because "Brian is used to TikTok and has the intention span of a chipmunk" is something I am vehemently against. If we had a time machine, I'd bet my house that The Rings of Power would've been 10x more succesful if they'd stuck with the existing lore and source material and didn't make shit up. Orc families; orcs expressing love. Get the fuck outa here.

DarkCntry wrote on Sep 5, 2024, 04:30:

Eldaron Imotholin wrote on Sep 5, 2024, 03:47:
If you keep missing the point, I guess it might look that way! The point is that most "wokeness" complaints aren't simply about diversity or an attack on white people or whatever strawman argument you want to throw out there. Look at Prey, for example: it featured a predominantly Native American cast with a female lead, and even portrayed white men as villains. Yet, no one raised an issue. Why? Because it made sense within the context of the story. It wasn’t shoehorned in or trying to push a separate political agenda.

Just because you didn't see something happening didn't mean it wasn't going on. Several times I witnessed people claiming that Prey was woke because it put a female in power over males. Hell, I even saw people going "anti-white agenda" quite a few times...

Similarly, Jedi: Fallen Order included a significant black character, and there wasn’t a backlash about it. The reason? The character wasn’t portrayed as some kind of caricature or used as a platform for a different message. It was simply good storytelling that included diverse characters naturally.

...there was plenty of backlash happening over Jedi Fallen Order, the least of which was with Cere's inclusion. People were falling over left and right about just the sheer number of females in major roles in the game...for example look here.

This is exactly what I meant when I said you don't argue in good faith, you make some demonstrably false and seriously half-cocked accusations and then wave your hand about stating how "we don't see it the right way".

There are certainly people who equate any inclusion of a female character or person of color as "woke," but pretending that everyone who sees issues with forced diversity or overt political messaging falls into this group is a mistake. This kind of blanket dismissal prevents real discussions from happening and stops creators in gaming, film, and TV from understanding what went wrong when their content feels shallow or forced. If we can't have open discussions about these things, we'll just keep getting more of the same shallow, pandering content. So, let's cut the forced politics and trends from fiction and focus on genuine storytelling. Tolkein is spinning is his grave right now.

Please don't bring up Tolkien in this discussion, there's absolutely nothing about any of the recent works that would cause him to roll any more than he already is just because of their sheer existence. Rings of Power may veer from established Lore but that is out of necessity and less about an agenda, in so much as Pete Jackson's versions of LOTR do the same. As a long time Tolkien fan (so much that I even took several years of course work on his writings), I actually accept the new media rendition simply because without it, most of the Professor's work would not be consumed by people due to the difficult prose he took. Do things annoy me about the changes made? Sure, but it's inconsequential in the grand scheme of things as I'm not the primary target for it.

Just put him on ignore. I mean, he is whining because I don't read his irrational screeds anymore. Prey was called disgusting SJW belching in user reviews, and the lengthiest Fallen Order discussion on this very site was because multiple posters called it woke garbage.

If he wants to whine about bad writing, call it that. But he choose "woke." He can't virtue signal with that word then cry when we read what he's putting down. If you think you're being misunderstood communicate better and don't choose vague, poorly defined words that only morons use. He does that then cries that no one else is aligned to his personal definition that doesn't align to the more broadly used one by Fox or kotakuinaction, yet he won't stop using the word.

Life improved a few years back when I changed my opinion that Ignore was a cheat. Some people demand attention but offer nothing in return. They don't deserve your time.

Eldaron Imotholin wrote on Sep 5, 2024, 03:47:
If you keep missing the point, I guess it might look that way! The point is that most "wokeness" complaints aren't simply about diversity or an attack on white people or whatever strawman argument you want to throw out there. Look at Prey, for example: it featured a predominantly Native American cast with a female lead, and even portrayed white men as villains. Yet, no one raised an issue. Why? Because it made sense within the context of the story. It wasn’t shoehorned in or trying to push a separate political agenda.

Just because you didn't see something happening didn't mean it wasn't going on. Several times I witnessed people claiming that Prey was woke because it put a female in power over males. Hell, I even saw people going "anti-white agenda" quite a few times...

Similarly, Jedi: Fallen Order included a significant black character, and there wasn’t a backlash about it. The reason? The character wasn’t portrayed as some kind of caricature or used as a platform for a different message. It was simply good storytelling that included diverse characters naturally.

...there was plenty of backlash happening over Jedi Fallen Order, the least of which was with Cere's inclusion. People were falling over left and right about just the sheer number of females in major roles in the game...for example look here.

This is exactly what I meant when I said you don't argue in good faith, you make some demonstrably false and seriously half-cocked accusations and then wave your hand about stating how "we don't see it the right way".

There are certainly people who equate any inclusion of a female character or person of color as "woke," but pretending that everyone who sees issues with forced diversity or overt political messaging falls into this group is a mistake. This kind of blanket dismissal prevents real discussions from happening and stops creators in gaming, film, and TV from understanding what went wrong when their content feels shallow or forced. If we can't have open discussions about these things, we'll just keep getting more of the same shallow, pandering content. So, let's cut the forced politics and trends from fiction and focus on genuine storytelling. Tolkein is spinning is his grave right now.

Please don't bring up Tolkien in this discussion, there's absolutely nothing about any of the recent works that would cause him to roll any more than he already is just because of their sheer existence. Rings of Power may veer from established Lore but that is out of necessity and less about an agenda, in so much as Pete Jackson's versions of LOTR do the same. As a long time Tolkien fan (so much that I even took several years of course work on his writings), I actually accept the new media rendition simply because without it, most of the Professor's work would not be consumed by people due to the difficult prose he took. Do things annoy me about the changes made? Sure, but it's inconsequential in the grand scheme of things as I'm not the primary target for it.

Sepharo wrote on Sep 4, 2024, 14:29:
How convenient that your point is proved either way, regardless of anything really!

If you keep missing the point, I guess it might look that way! The point is that most "wokeness" complaints aren't simply about diversity or an attack on white people or whatever strawman argument you want to throw out there. Look at Prey, for example: it featured a predominantly Native American cast with a female lead, and even portrayed white men as villains. Yet, no one raised an issue. Why? Because it made sense within the context of the story. It wasn’t shoehorned in or trying to push a separate political agenda.

Similarly, Jedi: Fallen Order included a significant black character, and there wasn’t a backlash about it. The reason? The character wasn’t portrayed as some kind of caricature or used as a platform for a different message. It was simply good storytelling that included diverse characters naturally.

There are certainly people who equate any inclusion of a female character or person of color as "woke," but pretending that everyone who sees issues with forced diversity or overt political messaging falls into this group is a mistake. This kind of blanket dismissal prevents real discussions from happening and stops creators in gaming, film, and TV from understanding what went wrong when their content feels shallow or forced. If we can't have open discussions about these things, we'll just keep getting more of the same shallow, pandering content. So, let's cut the forced politics and trends from fiction and focus on genuine storytelling. Tolkein is spinning is his grave right now.

Razumen wrote on Sep 5, 2024, 00:21:

Prez wrote on Sep 4, 2024, 20:48:
Well either your standards are too high, or you're not looking hard enough. If you're talking movies and TV, there are admittedly some quality gaps in certain genres. But gaming? I have been finding so many good games made in the last year or two that it's ridiculous. Just not from traditional "AAA" studios.

The softening of gaming over the years is an undeniable fact, made even more obvious when you look at how traditional gaming's profits has remained stagnant over the years, while mobile gaming has completely obliterated it. Companies aim for the biggest market, and that means making everything as inoffensive as possible, which means he get crap like Concord again and again.

...And yet I am denying it. Weird, huh?