Eldaron Imotholin wrote on Aug 12, 2024, 05:17:

ZeroPike1 wrote on Aug 12, 2024, 05:07:

Eldaron Imotholin wrote on Aug 12, 2024, 03:18:
Enjoyed Starfield, but the story was absolutely ridiculous. I'll point out why:

1.) The game’s theme and story revolve around the thrill of exploring the unknown.
2.) Humanity, equipped with relatively new technology, has only just begun to explore a small fraction of the universe.
3.) Midway through the game, the concept of the multiverse is introduced, and the player's goal is to reach such a copy of the same barely explored universe.

Just... WHY?! WHY should I leave a barely explored universe for another barely explored copy universe?! <-- That question echoed endlessly in my head once the main story set its course to its bs conclusion.

What I got out of the story is the „loop“ was possible. To start all over again at a certain point. To make changes and alter the outcome. The universe is stuck in a time loop.

Having said that I feel how it treats this loop as weird. It’s gated off from random normal people in the same universe Unless they find and experience an artifact, thus making them „special“ The special people are allowed to use the loop with permission and guidance from others experienced with the loop or to be the solo one to take it for yourself. Thus the choice at the end, to control it or to selectively share the loop.

In the end it fails to explain who or what built the loop and to what end. It just exists.

I think that is its biggest failing. There is no purpose or reason. The universe is looped based solely on the players whim. Only because you are the „special one“

Fun thing you can do is to go and talk to the the „bad“ guy before you even are told about them on your second loop. They get pissy real quick about it.

Ah shit, yes, it was a time loop and not a multiverse! That makes it even more ridiculous, especially why the woman companion -- who lives and breathes to explore the universe! -- so desperately wants to experience the loop.

Because there's no purpose or reason for the loop, that's where my "WHY" came from: Why not just ignore the loop, ignore those high-tecch weirdos, and explore?

My biggest gripe, in short, is this: The game created a setting with endless possibilities, yet they went for a time-loop sorta semi-multiverse theme.

Here's the Route 66, but you're only allowed to drive the first 10 miles from Chicago. Over and over and over again.

I don't believe it as loop at all, it's pretty much explained as a multiverse type deal, with each universe having different versions of people that change drastically based on their life choices. For example it's explained that in all the other universes that the hunter has gone to, the one you first play in the game is the first time your character has been a problem for him. The problem with Bethesda's attempt at this is that they simply cannot demonstrate the vast changes needed in each world for it to represent what they're saying it is, because just one universe at the scale they chose is already too much for them.

They should have aimed MUCH smaller, a few systems at most, like Freelancer or something. And then planned to spread out the story and quests through each universe you can visit.

ZeroPike1 wrote on Aug 13, 2024, 06:09:

Burrito of Peace wrote on Aug 12, 2024, 12:26:
There are spoilers below. I will not be hiding them. You're an adult, skip it if you feel the need.

I think people are reading way too much in to the "twist" of Starfield.

It's really simply calculus. Someone watched a very abridged, dumbed down for the masses TikTok video about what a multiverse might be and said "Let's make that the mystery of the game!" They didn't dig any deeper, didn't stop to think deeply about the implications of a multiverse, and allocated no resources in to designing a game that could effectively make use of the concept. Then, to pile more shit on that mountain of bullshit, they leaned on lazy, tired tropes. "Hurrrr wouldn't it be funny if the guy you meet that seems to genuinely care about people was actually a cynical, evil bastard and the person you cared (allegedly) about in the game was there to stop him and help guide you?"

If was just a shitty take all the way around and made Oblivion's surface level attempt at pondering the nature of godhood seem profound in comparison. What's the point of having the depth and expanse of the universe itself, or themselves in this case, at your disposal if you are railroaded in to the same inevitable outcome? Nothing you do fundamentally changes anything about the universe or the story itself. If anything, it cheapens the idea of a multiverse because you are always going to end up in the exact same place without fail. Therefore, you might as well just call it immutable destiny and skip the whole idea of a multiverse. In the grand scale of a universe where there are possibly billions, if not trillions, of people even in the small corner allotted to you, you don't make a single bit of difference. Not one. Even if you accept the time loop theory, there should be visible changes to the human SoI based upon your actions beyond "The player went with Option A instead of Option B in this subquest and now someone is mad at them instead of liking them". Like, let's say I side with the Crimson Fleet and go on to be the greatest space pirate ever dreamed of. Surely the UC and FC would then beef up patrols and I would see more battles as the emboldened Crimson Fleet now has more wealth to buy/build ships, equip them, and man them. Nope. Nothing changes substantially in the game.

Which is why both the multiverse and time loop theories are utterly pointless. It's lipstick on a pig.

I think they built this whole game and story on the idea of starting again. You might know by the example of Skyrim or Oblivion; how you would play a bunch then stop. Get bored of it or whatever. Then months/years later you pick it up again. Make a new char and start again.

A part of me thinks that is why the story is like it is. Endless starting again.

However they didn’t put a super engrossing story or world together. After the Crimson Fleet Story line I find it hard to go much further, make a new Char or hit the portal for New Game ++++ or what ever + I’m on now. And no filling out my talent trees is not engrossing gameplay.

The problem is there's no reason to start again. The story is done in one playthrough (and is shite anyways). Nothing changes in other universes besides very minor and sparse things. There are no different quests, NPCs or locations. You can't use past knowledge to change quests. Your companions do not even react to you being Starborn. You can't reroll your character traits starting over, yet you lose all your ships and items, so why would someone want to spread their playtime through multiple universes? You don't get new powers, you just upgrade the powers you already have, which just leads to the classic "Bethesda Game Balance" which is just power creep and bullet sponge enemies that still offer you no threat.

There's just so much wrong with the game, which isn't surprising because they didn't even make a design document for it!

Burrito of Peace wrote on Aug 12, 2024, 12:26:
There are spoilers below. I will not be hiding them. You're an adult, skip it if you feel the need.

I think people are reading way too much in to the "twist" of Starfield.

It's really simply calculus. Someone watched a very abridged, dumbed down for the masses TikTok video about what a multiverse might be and said "Let's make that the mystery of the game!" They didn't dig any deeper, didn't stop to think deeply about the implications of a multiverse, and allocated no resources in to designing a game that could effectively make use of the concept. Then, to pile more shit on that mountain of bullshit, they leaned on lazy, tired tropes. "Hurrrr wouldn't it be funny if the guy you meet that seems to genuinely care about people was actually a cynical, evil bastard and the person you cared (allegedly) about in the game was there to stop him and help guide you?"

If was just a shitty take all the way around and made Oblivion's surface level attempt at pondering the nature of godhood seem profound in comparison. What's the point of having the depth and expanse of the universe itself, or themselves in this case, at your disposal if you are railroaded in to the same inevitable outcome? Nothing you do fundamentally changes anything about the universe or the story itself. If anything, it cheapens the idea of a multiverse because you are always going to end up in the exact same place without fail. Therefore, you might as well just call it immutable destiny and skip the whole idea of a multiverse. In the grand scale of a universe where there are possibly billions, if not trillions, of people even in the small corner allotted to you, you don't make a single bit of difference. Not one. Even if you accept the time loop theory, there should be visible changes to the human SoI based upon your actions beyond "The player went with Option A instead of Option B in this subquest and now someone is mad at them instead of liking them". Like, let's say I side with the Crimson Fleet and go on to be the greatest space pirate ever dreamed of. Surely the UC and FC would then beef up patrols and I would see more battles as the emboldened Crimson Fleet now has more wealth to buy/build ships, equip them, and man them. Nope. Nothing changes substantially in the game.

Which is why both the multiverse and time loop theories are utterly pointless. It's lipstick on a pig.

I think they built this whole game and story on the idea of starting again. You might know by the example of Skyrim or Oblivion; how you would play a bunch then stop. Get bored of it or whatever. Then months/years later you pick it up again. Make a new char and start again.

A part of me thinks that is why the story is like it is. Endless starting again.

However they didn’t put a super engrossing story or world together. After the Crimson Fleet Story line I find it hard to go much further, make a new Char or hit the portal for New Game ++++ or what ever + I’m on now. And no filling out my talent trees is not engrossing gameplay.

NMS also has the whole universe + type of theme supposedly once you reach the center. I don't know since I never got that far. It kind of serves no purpose there, whereas starfield you get to see slightly different versions of the core story and also strengthen your abilities a slight bit. But as a negative you lose all your shit, which kind of made it pointless to do for me. I guess if you want to do a replay of the game it serves a purpose. otherwise no.

There are spoilers below. I will not be hiding them. You're an adult, skip it if you feel the need.

I think people are reading way too much in to the "twist" of Starfield.

It's really simply calculus. Someone watched a very abridged, dumbed down for the masses TikTok video about what a multiverse might be and said "Let's make that the mystery of the game!" They didn't dig any deeper, didn't stop to think deeply about the implications of a multiverse, and allocated no resources in to designing a game that could effectively make use of the concept. Then, to pile more shit on that mountain of bullshit, they leaned on lazy, tired tropes. "Hurrrr wouldn't it be funny if the guy you meet that seems to genuinely care about people was actually a cynical, evil bastard and the person you cared (allegedly) about in the game was there to stop him and help guide you?"

If was just a shitty take all the way around and made Oblivion's surface level attempt at pondering the nature of godhood seem profound in comparison. What's the point of having the depth and expanse of the universe itself, or themselves in this case, at your disposal if you are railroaded in to the same inevitable outcome? Nothing you do fundamentally changes anything about the universe or the story itself. If anything, it cheapens the idea of a multiverse because you are always going to end up in the exact same place without fail. Therefore, you might as well just call it immutable destiny and skip the whole idea of a multiverse. In the grand scale of a universe where there are possibly billions, if not trillions, of people even in the small corner allotted to you, you don't make a single bit of difference. Not one. Even if you accept the time loop theory, there should be visible changes to the human SoI based upon your actions beyond "The player went with Option A instead of Option B in this subquest and now someone is mad at them instead of liking them". Like, let's say I side with the Crimson Fleet and go on to be the greatest space pirate ever dreamed of. Surely the UC and FC would then beef up patrols and I would see more battles as the emboldened Crimson Fleet now has more wealth to buy/build ships, equip them, and man them. Nope. Nothing changes substantially in the game.

Which is why both the multiverse and time loop theories are utterly pointless. It's lipstick on a pig.

ZeroPike1 wrote on Aug 12, 2024, 05:07:

Eldaron Imotholin wrote on Aug 12, 2024, 03:18:
Enjoyed Starfield, but the story was absolutely ridiculous. I'll point out why:

1.) The game’s theme and story revolve around the thrill of exploring the unknown.
2.) Humanity, equipped with relatively new technology, has only just begun to explore a small fraction of the universe.
3.) Midway through the game, the concept of the multiverse is introduced, and the player's goal is to reach such a copy of the same barely explored universe.

Just... WHY?! WHY should I leave a barely explored universe for another barely explored copy universe?! <-- That question echoed endlessly in my head once the main story set its course to its bs conclusion.

What I got out of the story is the „loop“ was possible. To start all over again at a certain point. To make changes and alter the outcome. The universe is stuck in a time loop.

Having said that I feel how it treats this loop as weird. It’s gated off from random normal people in the same universe Unless they find and experience an artifact, thus making them „special“ The special people are allowed to use the loop with permission and guidance from others experienced with the loop or to be the solo one to take it for yourself. Thus the choice at the end, to control it or to selectively share the loop.

In the end it fails to explain who or what built the loop and to what end. It just exists.

I think that is its biggest failing. There is no purpose or reason. The universe is looped based solely on the players whim. Only because you are the „special one“

Fun thing you can do is to go and talk to the the „bad“ guy before you even are told about them on your second loop. They get pissy real quick about it.

Ah shit, yes, it was a time loop and not a multiverse! That makes it even more ridiculous, especially why the woman companion -- who lives and breathes to explore the universe! -- so desperately wants to experience the loop.

Because there's no purpose or reason for the loop, that's where my "WHY" came from: Why not just ignore the loop, ignore those high-tecch weirdos, and explore?

My biggest gripe, in short, is this: The game created a setting with endless possibilities, yet they went for a time-loop sorta semi-multiverse theme.

Here's the Route 66, but you're only allowed to drive the first 10 miles from Chicago. Over and over and over again.

Eldaron Imotholin wrote on Aug 12, 2024, 03:18:
Enjoyed Starfield, but the story was absolutely ridiculous. I'll point out why:

1.) The game’s theme and story revolve around the thrill of exploring the unknown.
2.) Humanity, equipped with relatively new technology, has only just begun to explore a small fraction of the universe.
3.) Midway through the game, the concept of the multiverse is introduced, and the player's goal is to reach such a copy of the same barely explored universe.

Just... WHY?! WHY should I leave a barely explored universe for another barely explored copy universe?! <-- That question echoed endlessly in my head once the main story set its course to its bs conclusion.

What I got out of the story is the „loop“ was possible. To start all over again at a certain point. To make changes and alter the outcome. The universe is stuck in a time loop.

Having said that I feel how it treats this loop as weird. It’s gated off from random normal people in the same universe Unless they find and experience an artifact, thus making them „special“ The special people are allowed to use the loop with permission and guidance from others experienced with the loop or to be the solo one to take it for yourself. Thus the choice at the end, to control it or to selectively share the loop.

In the end it fails to explain who or what built the loop and to what end. It just exists.

I think that is its biggest failing. There is no purpose or reason. The universe is looped based solely on the players whim. Only because you are the „special one“

Fun thing you can do is to go and talk to the the „bad“ guy before you even are told about them on your second loop. They get pissy real quick about it.

MrZoner wrote on Aug 11, 2024, 22:26:

Jim wrote on Aug 11, 2024, 15:11:

RogueSix wrote on Aug 11, 2024, 11:40:
Yay! So we can finally get to all those places with nothing meaningful to do and to the level barriers even faster! What a time to be alive!

there are a couple of worthwhile spots. first is the planet with the ultimate mining zone, I think you can get 4 resources in one base. It is a bit tricky to find. A vehicle will not help with it. however there is a planet with a fast access merchant outpost. You can make a base nearby and sell/rest/repeat. Kind of annoying that they have silly limits on the amounts you can sell.

In the mountains of Zeta Ophiuchi I you can get the full iron line - Yb Ta HnCn Fe, AND as a bonus Ag deposits, plus atmospheric Cl and H20. Getting HnCn and Ag at the same time takes some exploring. You also need to find a fairly flat area in the mountains. Archimedes IV covers half the IL line and provides the Hg. This shaves a planet off of most combinations for bases.

I managed to get all organics and all but the 4 least useful organics down to 21 outposts. If you exclude Gastronomic Delight, High-Tensile Spidroin, Luxury Textile, and Stimulant its a lot easier to make it all fit. You never need a lot of these resources and the textile and stimulant are absurdly easy to go hunting for. Fermi VII-a will already have a base on it for manufacturing Memory Substrate, and is conveniently inhabited by a large quantity of flying aggressive creatures that drop stimulant.

There are planets with He3 in the atmosphere. Four of them have an interesting mineral on them, Luyten's Rock for Li or Ta, Katydid III-a for Yb, and Eridani III-b for V. If you export these you still have 20 cargo links which covers the most number of bases you can build.

My outposts grouped by inorganic family:
Chlorine - Schrodinger II, Zelazny III, Alpha Andrase III, Luyten's Rock(Li+He3)
Iron - Zeta Ophiuchi I, Carinae III-a, Katydid I-a (Yb+He3), Luyten's Rock(Ta+He3)
Aluminum - Charybdis II, Katydid III
Nickel - Fermi VII-a, Huygens VII-a
Argon - Verne I, Cheyene:Codos
Uranium - Decaran VII-b, Leonis III, Eridani III-b (V+He3)
Lead - Alpha Tirna VIII-c
Copper - Archimedes IV, Narion:Sumati, Ixyll II

Serpentis IV is better than Charybdis II for an organic hub but this takes up an extra outpost

Honest innocent question here: What do you even do with all this stuff? The only base(s) and resource chains I built, I built for the achievements (got 100% in SF). Other than that, I never found a use for resource harvesting in my playthrough. OK. I never got into the whole ship building and ship modification business so is that what you are using these resources for?
I pretty much fiddled around with the super-clunky UI of the ship builder for two minutes, lol'ed hard, closed it and never bothered again.

Or is this pure meta sandbox gameplay where you pretend to be a make-believe resource mogul? Do you just build bases and harvest stuff for mere shits and giggles? And do you make your own challenges by finding the best spots? Is that it? Or is there any practical use besides leveling up some skills or using resources for the ship builder that I have missed?

Enjoyed Starfield, but the story was absolutely ridiculous. I'll point out why:

1.) The game’s theme and story revolve around the thrill of exploring the unknown.
2.) Humanity, equipped with relatively new technology, has only just begun to explore a small fraction of the universe.
3.) Midway through the game, the concept of the multiverse is introduced, and the player's goal is to reach such a copy of the same barely explored universe.

Just... WHY?! WHY should I leave a barely explored universe for another barely explored copy universe?! <-- That question echoed endlessly in my head once the main story set its course to its bs conclusion.

Starfield is a good game. It has a storyline that can be ignored then you can go sandbox, base building is pointless but then again not many games have a "point" to base building. It was stable at launch and good enough fun. ED is no different, hyperspace jump is just another loading screen and ED is a KM wide but a CM thick. NMS too. If you want a good space game with no loading screens then X4 is still my "return to" game (arguably with good base building too).

I enjoyed my first playthrough. Some big side missions (the pirates and aliens missions) were fun to me, the main story was not, though. I am looking forward to playing a new game plus version in 2 years or so. Up to then, the game will have a lot of new features and plenty of mods like all the Bethesda games.

Jim wrote on Aug 11, 2024, 15:11:

RogueSix wrote on Aug 11, 2024, 11:40:
Yay! So we can finally get to all those places with nothing meaningful to do and to the level barriers even faster! What a time to be alive!

there are a couple of worthwhile spots. first is the planet with the ultimate mining zone, I think you can get 4 resources in one base. It is a bit tricky to find. A vehicle will not help with it. however there is a planet with a fast access merchant outpost. You can make a base nearby and sell/rest/repeat. Kind of annoying that they have silly limits on the amounts you can sell.

In the mountains of Zeta Ophiuchi I you can get the full iron line - Yb Ta HnCn Fe, AND as a bonus Ag deposits, plus atmospheric Cl and H20. Getting HnCn and Ag at the same time takes some exploring. You also need to find a fairly flat area in the mountains. Archimedes IV covers half the IL line and provides the Hg. This shaves a planet off of most combinations for bases.

I managed to get all organics and all but the 4 least useful organics down to 21 outposts. If you exclude Gastronomic Delight, High-Tensile Spidroin, Luxury Textile, and Stimulant its a lot easier to make it all fit. You never need a lot of these resources and the textile and stimulant are absurdly easy to go hunting for. Fermi VII-a will already have a base on it for manufacturing Memory Substrate, and is conveniently inhabited by a large quantity of flying aggressive creatures that drop stimulant.

There are planets with He3 in the atmosphere. Four of them have an interesting mineral on them, Luyten's Rock for Li or Ta, Katydid III-a for Yb, and Eridani III-b for V. If you export these you still have 20 cargo links which covers the most number of bases you can build.

My outposts grouped by inorganic family:
Chlorine - Schrodinger II, Zelazny III, Alpha Andrase III, Luyten's Rock(Li+He3)
Iron - Zeta Ophiuchi I, Carinae III-a, Katydid I-a (Yb+He3), Luyten's Rock(Ta+He3)
Aluminum - Charybdis II, Katydid III
Nickel - Fermi VII-a, Huygens VII-a
Argon - Verne I, Cheyene:Codos
Uranium - Decaran VII-b, Leonis III, Eridani III-b (V+He3)
Lead - Alpha Tirna VIII-c
Copper - Archimedes IV, Narion:Sumati, Ixyll II

Serpentis IV is better than Charybdis II for an organic hub but this takes up an extra outpost

Pr()ZaC wrote on Aug 11, 2024, 12:38:
I would consider playing the game when we'll have no loading screen of space-to-planet (and viceversa) transition.
A modern space game without real-time transitions is a travesty.

Enjoy Star Citizen then that barely runs at all.

Jim wrote on Aug 11, 2024, 15:11:
Kind of annoying that they have silly limits on the amounts you can sell.

Definitely. Of the 671,562,397 loading screens that I saw during my playthrough, at least 487,693,127 were from planet-hopping, trying to offload crap .

Pr()ZaC wrote on Aug 11, 2024, 15:35:
Won't mods fix that?

apparently there is a "richer vendors" mod which would partially solve it, but still it is a silly annoyance when companies build crap like this into their games. I like collecting ALL the loot in the places I go, sometimes waddling back to my ship. Being unable to easily sell things is just annoying.

Jim wrote on Aug 11, 2024, 15:11:

RogueSix wrote on Aug 11, 2024, 11:40:
Yay! So we can finally get to all those places with nothing meaningful to do and to the level barriers even faster! What a time to be alive!

there are a couple of worthwhile spots. first is the planet with the ultimate mining zone, I think you can get 4 resources in one base. It is a bit tricky to find. A vehicle will not help with it. however there is a planet with a fast access merchant outpost. You can make a base nearby and sell/rest/repeat. Kind of annoying that they have silly limits on the amounts you can sell.

Won't mods fix that?

RogueSix wrote on Aug 11, 2024, 11:40:
Yay! So we can finally get to all those places with nothing meaningful to do and to the level barriers even faster! What a time to be alive!

there are a couple of worthwhile spots. first is the planet with the ultimate mining zone, I think you can get 4 resources in one base. It is a bit tricky to find. A vehicle will not help with it. however there is a planet with a fast access merchant outpost. You can make a base nearby and sell/rest/repeat. Kind of annoying that they have silly limits on the amounts you can sell.

I would consider playing the game when we'll have no loading screen of space-to-planet (and viceversa) transition.
A modern space game without real-time transitions is a travesty.

Yay! So we can finally get to all those places with nothing meaningful to do and to the level barriers even faster! What a time to be alive!