The Flying Penguin wrote on Aug 10, 2024, 10:49:
It's sounding like it fell that way from 17,000 ft, which makes sense. Icing conditions were reported.

There's really only one way out of that (I have never flown a real plane, but I have performed flat spins in RC planes): throttle back to idle (at this point thrust only makes it worse), neutral ailerons, and kick the rudder in the opposite direction of spin. Since the plane has lost all aerodynamics and is just fluttering down like a napkin, the hope is you can stop the spin, get the nose down, and get air flowing across the surfaces again, but you need a LOT of altitude to work with.

Sounded like the engines were full throttle when it hit, so dunno if he tried the idle trick first, and just out of desperation throttled up as they approached the ground. Really, though, an airliner in a flat spin like that has a poor chance of recovery, unless it's from a very high altitude.

Poor bastards. That must have been a terrifying ride.

Different camera angle here: https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/1eo6kaw/new_angle_from_flat_spin_airplane_accident_from/

Yeah, except you're pulling serious Gs in a flat spin. The pilots had most likely blacked out when it began. That was a big problem with the F14s. Lots of pilots died due to that. The Navy had to implement specialized training for it. They didn't have a snowball's chance in Hell. I can only hope it was quick for all of them. You certainly don't want to survive something like that broken and bleeding and then burn to death.

People are trained not to read manuals because the ones we have been getting are awful. I will religiously read manuals (I used to read my car manuals for chrissake) and lately they are very VERY close to useless.

El Pit wrote on Aug 10, 2024, 13:12:
Next they expect people to read ToS or other license agreements and other TL;DR stuff. Don't ruin your eyes trying to read fine print, people. It will be alright, always trust the companies.

If I have doubts about that stuff I typically dump it into GPT and ask it to give me the skinny details, along with highlighting any "questionable" stuff. It's been extremely helpful "delawyerifying" that stuff.

Next they expect people to read ToS or other license agreements and other TL;DR stuff. Don't ruin your eyes trying to read fine print, people. It will be alright, always trust the companies.

As BoP's Dad said, incorrect CG (center of gravity) is possible, either improperly loaded cargo, or cargo shifted or broke loose.

Damn, I didn't notice the rudder wasn't kicked over in that video. But yeah, just looked again and freezed the video at :06 and there is no rudder deflection.

You can look up the flight here and get a speed an altitude graph (for free). https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/2z2283

A youtuber was making a little deal about altitude changes immediately before the incident. Initially I thought it was bad, but that was before I noticed the scale. Unless the pilot overcorrected ... https://youtu.be/pn_R77t5eDA?si=CZk96Yw0RMoT4tNV&t=232

Like what TFP said, if it was icing that would have been bad. I did a search for stall on that aircraft and it pulled up icing incidents. https://www.airdatanews.com/in-35-years-in-service-the-atr-72-aircraft-has-had-10-fatal-accidents/
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edit 1700

Here is my uneducated guess. The plane was in good working order and had no mechanical issues.

They were supposedly in severe icing conditions with 80% humidity. (first hole in the swiss cheese model).
My guess is the autopilot kicked off when the control inputs exceeded what the autopilot is allowed to do and/or the pilots turned it off because they were getting ready to start their descent and due to icing they wanted to fly it manually to feel the plane. Pilots overcorrected due to degraded handling caused by icing and/or did not follow proper procedures (second swiss cheese hole).
They would have have been ok but there was also uneven weight distribution. (that third hole lined up with the other two and the plane went down)

The black boxes have been recovered. We'll know in 12-24 months.

This comment was edited on Aug 10, 2024, 17:08.

My dad linked the video in that Reddit thread to me this morning and was telling me about it. His first instinct is that the plane was improperly loaded or that the load shifted in flight. He explained that when loading a plane, you want more weight fore of the wing root instead of aft. That way the plane is nose heavy and is balanced by the horizontal stabilizers at the rear. In the event of a reduction of lift, the plane wants to naturally nose down allowing you to pick up more airspeed and therefore generate more lift over the wings. Assuming that you have the altitude to do so.

There were three things in his mind that stood out about this being completely unrecoverable beyond the low altitude. The first was that it was a twin turboprop. If the pilot was trying to use the engine in the opposing direction of the spin, it simply didn't have enough thrust to help much. The second was the low aspect ratio of the wings on the ATR 72. It's hard to generate lift when you don't have enough surface to generate it without sufficient power to artificially force more air over the wing. The third thing is that he did not see the rudder kicked out as it should have been. You can see that it is still in the neutral position in the video. Could be mechanical failure or could be the pilot panicking and/or forgetting their training.

"32 ft/s squared is a real bitch when you've little or no control" was his comment.

To mention the man's credentials, he is a combat vet former naval aviator. He's not just armchair quarterbacking someone else's misery.

In the final minute of the flight, the plane’s transponder reported that it was falling between 8,000 and 24,000 feet per minute, according to FlightRadar24, a provider of flight data.

Woof.

It's sounding like it fell that way from 17,000 ft, which makes sense. Icing conditions were reported.

There's really only one way out of that (I have never flown a real plane, but I have performed flat spins in RC planes): throttle back to idle (at this point thrust only makes it worse), neutral ailerons, and kick the rudder in the opposite direction of spin. Since the plane has lost all aerodynamics and is just fluttering down like a napkin, the hope is you can stop the spin, get the nose down, and get air flowing across the surfaces again, but you need a LOT of altitude to work with.

Sounded like the engines were full throttle when it hit, so dunno if he tried the idle trick first, and just out of desperation throttled up as they approached the ground. Really, though, an airliner in a flat spin like that has a poor chance of recovery, unless it's from a very high altitude.

Poor bastards. That must have been a terrifying ride.

Different camera angle here: https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/1eo6kaw/new_angle_from_flat_spin_airplane_accident_from/

RedEye9 wrote on Aug 10, 2024, 07:20:
These pilots should have read the manual and been well versed in stall recovery and prevention, because you only have 1 second when it happens in real life.
video of the flat spin in Brazil's Sao Paulo state

Frick! I can't imagine the amount of sheer terror that was for everyone onboard for about 15 seconds.

One of my favorite memes: "INSTRUCTIONS UNCLEAR. BURNED DOWN HOUSE." 📄🏠🔥😅

Wow that IS a classic flat spin, I'm going to be curious to read the report on that one.

These pilots should have read the manual and been well versed in stall recovery and prevention, because you only have 1 second when it happens in real life.
video of the flat spin in Brazil's Sao Paulo state

It's to the point that there are DIRECTIONS ON FUCKING POP TARTS! THIS IS SO YOU DON'T BURN YOUR HOUSE DOWN!?!?!
We have to cover games and batteries with stuff so kids don't swallow them. We have an entire generation of entitled fucktards producing "In the way people" -Bill Burr.
I'm getting more and more to the point of where the weak/stupid need to die off to clear the low end of the gene pool. I can't watch more then 30 mins of Idiocracy because I am so fucking embarrassed that this is the future of humans.
Maybe Skynet/Ultron/Horizon Zero Dawn has it right and the human race needs a reset.

One UK survey found that one in five of us skips the manual, while a US report said it was as high as 50%.

More like 95%, otherwise technical support wouldn't exist.

They're already "a thing of the past" today, judging by how most consumers act these days. If a feature or function isn't right up in their face, it may as well not even exist at all.