El Pit wrote on Aug 9, 2024, 11:22:

RedEye9 wrote on Aug 8, 2024, 11:01:
Title should have read “TSMC is having a difficult job finding people who want to work” or ”Entitled Americans may be fat, dumb or lazy - but at least they don’t want to work”

"Those illegal aliens are taking all the jobs away from us... Jobs we don't want but... whatever." /every nationalist/racist since ever

Echo-chamber ignorance. Let's dig a little deeper into why some jobs end up with wages so low that only the most desperate are willing to take them. When companies prioritize cutting costs above all else, they often look for ways to minimize labor expenses. In some cases, this can mean hiring workers who are willing to accept lower wages, often because they have fewer options available to them—like recent immigrants who may not have the same bargaining power as others in the job market.

A large influx of workers willing to accept lower wages can lead to a situation where wages in certain sectors are driven down across the board. As wages drop, these jobs become less attractive to the general population, and the only people willing to fill them are those with no other choice—this is often the result of businesses exploiting the situation to cut costs rather than paying fair wages.

There are numerous studies that have examined this phenomenon. For example, research has shown that in certain industries, particularly those with a high percentage of low-skilled jobs, immigration can lead to a decrease in wages for native workers, especially those with lower education levels. A study by the National Bureau of Economic Research found that "an influx of low-skilled immigrants can depress wages for native low-skilled workers." Another report from the Economic Policy Institute highlights how increased competition for low-wage jobs can lead to wage suppression across the board.

The issue here isn’t about immigrants taking jobs; it’s about how companies use immigration to lower wages and working conditions to maximize their profits, often at the expense of workers’ dignity and livelihood. If businesses were held accountable to pay fair wages, we wouldn't be seeing such a race to the bottom where only the most desperate are willing to take on these roles.

You weren't quoting racists. You were putting up a strawman elitists love to use to virtue signal.

PS: No, all immigration in and of itself isn't a bad thing and yes, it also has benefits. In this comment, I argued a certain rhetoric and not the entire case of immigration.

This comment was edited on Aug 10, 2024, 03:56.

RedEye9 wrote on Aug 8, 2024, 11:01:
Title should have read “TSMC is having a difficult job finding people who want to work” or ”Entitled Americans may be fat, dumb or lazy - but at least they don’t want to work”

"Those illegal aliens are taking all the jobs away from us... Jobs we don't want but... whatever." /every nationalist/racist since ever

Mr. Tact wrote on Aug 8, 2024, 17:21:

RogueSix wrote on Aug 8, 2024, 17:05:
And let's face it: Without US pressure there would not be a TSMC in Arizona because TSMC, among many other reasons, knew that they won't find the same working culture as in Taiwan anywhere else on the planet.

I absolutely agree with most everything you said, the cultural differences play a huge part in this. However, I am less sure about this last sentence. I mean, obviously it was unlikely to happen without US interest and support, but isn't in the interest of TSMC to expand outside Taiwan? I don't know what the likelihood of China taking over Taiwan is, but it ain't zero. And if that happens in a hostile way, then having plants in the US, Germany and elsewhere is going to be very good thing.

If they think they are having trouble employing Americans, they would tear there hair out keeping Germans on the payrolls. Germans are good workers only if they are compensated enough. Without it they will collectively drag a corporate bottom line down.

From what I've read of the 0x125 microcode update, I've decided not to flash my BIOS just yet. I have not seen any adverse affects on my system, but I'm not running an overclock, my 13600K is a middle of the pack chip or maybe I lucked out in my silicone. In any case Intel seems to be flailing a bit, and their "fixes" so far have been all over the place. In case my chip does fail, or starts showing symptoms I'll probably just use it as an excuse to (prematurely) upgrade my system and switch to the AMD platform.

RedEye9 wrote on Aug 8, 2024, 23:19:
Jay Z Two Cents tested the new microcode.
Intel's new Microcode patch is HERE! Impact Testing Performance...
He ended the video saying

• at most a 2% performance hit
• I don't think this is over yet.

In his Timespy tests, the drop was 5.6%.

That's pretty significant.

His CP2077 testing also showed a 3% drop.

Jay Z Two Cents tested the new microcode.
Intel's new Microcode patch is HERE! Impact Testing Performance...
He ended the video saying

• at most a 2% performance hit
• I don't think this is over yet.

BigBuckORamma wrote on Aug 8, 2024, 13:14:
The biggest issue with TSMC is that there are multiple Intel Facilities right across the valley, and the work pool from those facilities knows what their value is, and there is a well established pay scale in the region based on Intel's wages. TSMC does not want to pay that pay structure, and expects business as usual in Taiwan to translate over to the US Work Force, and that is NOT the case. Especially when you try to pitch a tent in your biggest competitors back yard (literally), and then expect to undercut them.

It's way more than that. Work culture in Korea is 6 days a week, 12 hours a day on average. The young Koreans there are done with that bullshit. Why on earth they think they could replicate that - dying - culture outside of Korea - won't even happen in Japan - boggles the mind. Even though the law sets the limit at 52 hours per week, corporate culture is such that anyone who isn't fully on-board with the corp won't be moving onwards and upwards. In NA and Europe we're trying to get down to a 4 day work week now. So clearly TSMC needs to step out of the way and let actual Americans run the American operation or it will fail.

SalaryMan Murray (OldManMurray's take on this) was way ahead of its time...

https://www.oldmanmurray.com/features/93.html

There are plenty of Americans with a good work ethic, they want devotion.

TSMC will have much better result for their new Japan plant. Japanese work ethnic are MUCH closer to Taiwanese compare to American.

Mr. Tact wrote on Aug 8, 2024, 17:21:
I don't know what the likelihood of China taking over Taiwan is, but it ain't zero. And if that happens in a hostile way, then having plants in the US, Germany and elsewhere is going to be very good thing.

The likelihood of a takeover, if we go by what Xi himself has been saying, is 100%. He has repeatedly stated that he will bring Taiwan "home" during his tenure (he is 71 years old).
He would prefer a peaceful annexation but he has also been clear that a military invasion is an option if a peaceful resolution can not be achieved. Most military experts, think tanks etc. seem to favor the year 2027+ due to various strategical factors.

Semiconductors are a part of the considerations. Pundits believe that China might be able to be mostly self-sufficient by 2027 so that China can afford to attack or blockade Taiwan.

I'm not sure about TSMC's own strategical direction but they were fighting pretty hard against US fabs a couple of years ago. They know how much the US/EU depend on them and what a complete global clusterfuck it would be if Taiwan is attacked by China.
Biden was not supposed to say it as it is always better to be ambiguous about these things but he assured Taiwan of US military support in case of a Chinese invasion.

That is what Taiwan/TSMC is relying on. They don't really need the fabs elsewhere while we (US/EU, everyone) absolutely do if and when the worst case explodes in our faces.

Mr. Tact wrote on Aug 8, 2024, 17:21:

RogueSix wrote on Aug 8, 2024, 17:05:
And let's face it: Without US pressure there would not be a TSMC in Arizona because TSMC, among many other reasons, knew that they won't find the same working culture as in Taiwan anywhere else on the planet.

I absolutely agree with most everything you said, the cultural differences play a huge part in this. However, I am less sure about this last sentence. I mean, obviously it was unlikely to happen without US interest and support, but isn't in the interest of TSMC to expand outside Taiwan? I don't know what the likelihood of China taking over Taiwan is, but it ain't zero. And if that happens in a hostile way, then having plants in the US, Germany and elsewhere is going to be very good thing.

I'm sure that factors in but also that people will be more willing to defend something if it's unique.

RogueSix wrote on Aug 8, 2024, 17:05:
And let's face it: Without US pressure there would not be a TSMC in Arizona because TSMC, among many other reasons, knew that they won't find the same working culture as in Taiwan anywhere else on the planet.

I absolutely agree with most everything you said, the cultural differences play a huge part in this. However, I am less sure about this last sentence. I mean, obviously it was unlikely to happen without US interest and support, but isn't in the interest of TSMC to expand outside Taiwan? I don't know what the likelihood of China taking over Taiwan is, but it ain't zero. And if that happens in a hostile way, then having plants in the US, Germany and elsewhere is going to be very good thing.

BigBuckORamma wrote on Aug 8, 2024, 13:14:
The biggest issue with TSMC is that there are multiple Intel Facilities right across the valley, and the work pool from those facilities knows what their value is, and there is a well established pay scale in the region based on Intel's wages. TSMC does not want to pay that pay structure, and expects business as usual in Taiwan to translate over to the US Work Force, and that is NOT the case. Especially when you try to pitch a tent in your biggest competitors back yard (literally), and then expect to undercut them.

Granted, I dunno what Intel is paying exactly as I only found salary ranges after a quick Google search but if anyone thinks that Taiwan is a 3rd world gig with low wages in the chip sector then please think again. Taiwan is a pretty modern country and the average salary at TSMC in 2023 was US$76,265.
This is actually down considerably from their 2022 numbers when the average was still US$103,711 but they created over 6,000 new jobs in 2023 which probably dragged down the average (or the NT$ crashed a little?).

The culture is definitely way different though. TSMC may not be as bad as the China sweat shops like Foxconn but all your body & soul are belong to TSMC if you work for them . That's "normal" in Asia. To a certain extent (Foxconn's outright slavery conditions notwithstanding), people actually like it that way and compared to the average plebs in Taiwan, TSMC employees are paid handsomely. That is why they -again, to a certain extent- don't mind serving their overlords above and beyond the call of duty that is hard to understand for us western "slackers" with our pesky work-life-balance pussy bullshit .
They are proud to work for the leading global chip manufacturer. It is an honor to them. It's simply a completely different culture and attitude that TSMC will not find anywhere in the western hemisphere. It's not US-specific.

And let's face it: Without US pressure there would not be a TSMC in Arizona because TSMC, among many other reasons, knew that they won't find the same working culture as in Taiwan anywhere else on the planet.

And this is all without mentioning the housing in the Phoenix area is pretty crazy. Maybe not as bad as Silicon Valley or Manhattan, but not low key. Also, they are having water problems which have caused some home building projects to be paused -- which of course contributes to the housing problems.

The biggest issue with TSMC is that there are multiple Intel Facilities right across the valley, and the work pool from those facilities knows what their value is, and there is a well established pay scale in the region based on Intel's wages. TSMC does not want to pay that pay structure, and expects business as usual in Taiwan to translate over to the US Work Force, and that is NOT the case. Especially when you try to pitch a tent in your biggest competitors back yard (literally), and then expect to undercut them.

Yeah, I kind of got the feeling TSMC wanted #2 and #3 -- if that is the case, I'm not surprised they ran into problems. At least, as you said, without proper compensation.

From the TSMC article, I gathered that that the Taiwanese management doesn't understand the following:

1. That endless meetings are counterproductive to actually accomplishing anything.
2. People aren't going to work outside the scope of their assigned duties for "the good of the company".
3. People are unwilling to be on-call 24/7/365, again "for the good of the company".

Maybe the average Taiwanese worker hasn't figured out what their American worker counterparts have. That is points 2 and 3 are exploitive as fuck and that no corporation is entitled to extra labor or time without a significant increase in compensation.

Possibility true, but a bit harsh given how little information the article provided. It would have been nice to hear from some of the workers who quit over the "disagreements over expectations". As someone who worked in corporate IT I have to say I wasn't overly happy with the work which had to be done in the middle of the night. But my employer at least gave us relief in the form of off time in compensation. And sure, some jobs require more of a commitment from the workers than other jobs do. But this article doesn't really provide enough information to decide which side is expecting too much.

RedEye9 wrote on Aug 8, 2024, 11:01:
”Entitled Americans may be fat, dumb or lazy - but at least they don’t want to work”

This might be a lead to what's going on at Intel at the moment!