Well you hating us is not going to change the fact that you are unhinged. I don't hate you back for what its worth.

Studios have been closing because they're not making enough money, people are touching grass post-pandemic and all that.

You know an easy way to give studios more money?

Don't steal 30% of every sale on behalf of something that contributes nothing to the game's development.

Investors all sit around going, "well we need to be more profitable or else we're firing everyone".

A solution COULD be that they don't lose 30% of every sale on PC.

Or you know, keep the status quo, never question it, and shrug when ten thousand game devs lose their jobs in the last 18 months like: "sucks to be them dude!"

LOL

Somehow this is me being controversial.

I fucking hate humanity.

You should feel wretched about this situation, and about the greed and stolen capital at every juncture. The ruined careers, fucked up lives, and just general misery to people who bring SPECIFICALLY US so much joy. But nobody really gives the slightest shit, or would consider changing their habits in the smallest way which could help them. Pathetic.

Slick wrote on Aug 1, 2024, 00:08:

jacobvandy wrote on Jul 31, 2024, 20:20:

Slick wrote on Jul 31, 2024, 19:13:
God forbid I bring up the 30% of gross Valve Tax in a thread where we're talking about EVEN MORE game developers losing their jobs. I mean I've been biting my tongue for the last 18 months, what's a few more hundred to get axed while PC gamers further bury their heads in the sand...

Studio blames financial woes on their own missteps in a shifting economic climate, but no, the real problem is the static overhead fee they've been subjected to on a small fraction of their estimated 20M+ sales. No wonder their financial safety margins gave way to ambition, who can keep track of such a reliable expense?

Nevermind that they'd already sold around 15 million units of the base game and first expansion BEFORE launching on Steam. What the fuck did they do with all of that money that they were forced to go F2P and then ratchet up the enshittification from there, leading to much fewer sales after that point? You really think Valve's cut was their death knell?

You're dancing around my point without addressing it.

You, like every other "industry commentator" like to quote mismanagement as the reason why over 50, probably more than 60 since I last checked studios have closed their doors in the last 12+ months.

Really? They all got really stupid overnight? Or you think the bigger reason is the profit MARGIN for these studios operations just wasn't worth the headache to the beancounters up top.

You think not losing 30% of every sale to a payment processor wouldn't have changed the calculus? It's always just been about money, game studios aren't a charity. They're funded by investors who want to see a return. When a whole segment of the gaming population is held hostage to Steam, YES , I THINK THATS A PROBLEM.

These studios closed because of the pandemic boom, and then the correction. Losing so much time training people, so much brain drain, so many people having to uproot their lives to move to a new city for a job, people who are still paying off their college loans they spent just to get these jobs. And every fucking day we hear about another studio closing its doors, or another 17% of the total workforce getting laid off. And then you go back to only buying from Steam. And you can't see how one affects the other.

I'm not saying this is the ONLY reason. But wake up dude. Investor margins are usually 30% on a good day. Recently it's been like 5-10% for many studios. Selling a million PC copies without the Steam tax is another 20 million dollars that studio earned. You don't think that helps with job security when the investors see that the studio is making a consistant profit? Belt-tightening is because of income. Help studios make more income by not giving 30% to a fucking mafia-style middleman, and you actually help the humans who make the art that we all love that has enhanced our lives throughout the years.

Or you know, just ignore reality, continue to fund the monopoly, and shed a crocodile tear next week when another studio closes, and you blame it on mismanagement, and not the only thing that matters, $$$$$$$$$.

My doctor says that I should be more willing to be a touch confrontational at times. So here goes:

What a bunch of manipulative, biased, cherry-picked, unmitigated horseshit.

When did Valve start with the 30%?
It must have been pretty recently right? To suddenly close all these developers in the past 12 months.

Slick wrote on Aug 1, 2024, 00:08:
You're dancing around my point without addressing it.

You, like every other "industry commentator" like to quote mismanagement as the reason why over 50, probably more than 60 since I last checked studios have closed their doors in the last 12+ months.

Really? They all got really stupid overnight? Or you think the bigger reason is the profit MARGIN for these studios operations just wasn't worth the headache to the beancounters up top.

You think not losing 30% of every sale to a payment processor wouldn't have changed the calculus? It's always just been about money, game studios aren't a charity. They're funded by investors who want to see a return. When a whole segment of the gaming population is held hostage to Steam, YES , I THINK THATS A PROBLEM.

These studios closed because of the pandemic boom, and then the correction. Losing so much time training people, so much brain drain, so many people having to uproot their lives to move to a new city for a job, people who are still paying off their college loans they spent just to get these jobs. And every fucking day we hear about another studio closing its doors, or another 17% of the total workforce getting laid off. And then you go back to only buying from Steam. And you can't see how one affects the other.

I'm not saying this is the ONLY reason. But wake up dude. Investor margins are usually 30% on a good day. Recently it's been like 5-10% for many studios. Selling a million PC copies without the Steam tax is another 20 million dollars that studio earned. You don't think that helps with job security when the investors see that the studio is making a consistant profit? Belt-tightening is because of income. Help studios make more income by not giving 30% to a fucking mafia-style middleman, and you actually help the humans who make the art that we all love that has enhanced our lives throughout the years.

Or you know, just ignore reality, continue to fund the monopoly, and shed a crocodile tear next week when another studio closes, and you blame it on mismanagement, and not the only thing that matters, $$$$$$$$$.

It's because your point has nothing to do with what we're talking about here. Yes, if they could get all their sales on a platform that didn't take a cut of their sales, they would make more revenue. But that has nothing to do with these layoffs. If they had 30% more gross revenue on PC sales and bigger margins, they would have just over-hired more during COVID and the layoffs would be just as big if not bigger. You're just shoehorning your pet grievance into the thread.

If you wanna get into semantics, 'mismanagement' does not strictly apply to someone being blatantly stupid. It's a catch-all term for someone making decisions that turn out to be wrong. You can have loads of data suggesting that one decision or another is a good idea, but if it ultimately leads to laying off or otherwise losing ~40% of your workforce in the last 9 months*, I think everyone would agree that there has clearly been some mismanagement along the way. Expanded too fast, overspent and ran out of options and had to sell out to another megacorp, fucked up the cash cow and pissed off customers, etc.

And again, Bungie apparently sold 15+ million units without Destiny 2 being on Steam... On the PC side, it was the first non-Blizzard game to use Activision's own store/launcher, Battle.net (I purchased a code-in-a-box at launch, which redeemed there). If they were pocketing extra money that way, it must not have been enough to be worth it, seeing as how they chose to end that publishing agreement prematurely and independently take the game to Steam. If Valve's cut is such a significant contributing factor to their problems, wouldn't that decision in itself constitute mismanagement?


*Out of 1200 employees: 100 laid off in Oct. '23, 220 laid off Jul. '24, 155 soon transferring to Sony studio(s)

jacobvandy wrote on Jul 31, 2024, 20:20:

Slick wrote on Jul 31, 2024, 19:13:
God forbid I bring up the 30% of gross Valve Tax in a thread where we're talking about EVEN MORE game developers losing their jobs. I mean I've been biting my tongue for the last 18 months, what's a few more hundred to get axed while PC gamers further bury their heads in the sand...

Studio blames financial woes on their own missteps in a shifting economic climate, but no, the real problem is the static overhead fee they've been subjected to on a small fraction of their estimated 20M+ sales. No wonder their financial safety margins gave way to ambition, who can keep track of such a reliable expense?

Nevermind that they'd already sold around 15 million units of the base game and first expansion BEFORE launching on Steam. What the fuck did they do with all of that money that they were forced to go F2P and then ratchet up the enshittification from there, leading to much fewer sales after that point? You really think Valve's cut was their death knell?

You're dancing around my point without addressing it.

You, like every other "industry commentator" like to quote mismanagement as the reason why over 50, probably more than 60 since I last checked studios have closed their doors in the last 12+ months.

Really? They all got really stupid overnight? Or you think the bigger reason is the profit MARGIN for these studios operations just wasn't worth the headache to the beancounters up top.

You think not losing 30% of every sale to a payment processor wouldn't have changed the calculus? It's always just been about money, game studios aren't a charity. They're funded by investors who want to see a return. When a whole segment of the gaming population is held hostage to Steam, YES , I THINK THATS A PROBLEM.

These studios closed because of the pandemic boom, and then the correction. Losing so much time training people, so much brain drain, so many people having to uproot their lives to move to a new city for a job, people who are still paying off their college loans they spent just to get these jobs. And every fucking day we hear about another studio closing its doors, or another 17% of the total workforce getting laid off. And then you go back to only buying from Steam. And you can't see how one affects the other.

I'm not saying this is the ONLY reason. But wake up dude. Investor margins are usually 30% on a good day. Recently it's been like 5-10% for many studios. Selling a million PC copies without the Steam tax is another 20 million dollars that studio earned. You don't think that helps with job security when the investors see that the studio is making a consistant profit? Belt-tightening is because of income. Help studios make more income by not giving 30% to a fucking mafia-style middleman, and you actually help the humans who make the art that we all love that has enhanced our lives throughout the years.

Or you know, just ignore reality, continue to fund the monopoly, and shed a crocodile tear next week when another studio closes, and you blame it on mismanagement, and not the only thing that matters, $$$$$$$$$.

I stopped buying the Destiny DLC after I noticed I can't play any of it because they removed the content. Like I don't just play games all day or whatever, it can take 3-6 years for me to finish a game, so it's kinda lame when content is time constrained.

This comment was edited on Jul 31, 2024, 21:14.

Slick wrote on Jul 31, 2024, 19:13:
God forbid I bring up the 30% of gross Valve Tax in a thread where we're talking about EVEN MORE game developers losing their jobs. I mean I've been biting my tongue for the last 18 months, what's a few more hundred to get axed while PC gamers further bury their heads in the sand...

Studio blames financial woes on their own missteps in a shifting economic climate, but no, the real problem is the static overhead fee they've been subjected to on a small fraction of their estimated 20M+ sales. No wonder their financial safety margins gave way to ambition, who can keep track of such a reliable expense?

Nevermind that they'd already sold around 15 million units of the base game and first expansion BEFORE launching on Steam. What the fuck did they do with all of that money that they were forced to go F2P and then ratchet up the enshittification from there, leading to much fewer sales after that point? You really think Valve's cut was their death knell?

Beamer wrote on Jul 31, 2024, 18:12:

Slick wrote on Jul 31, 2024, 17:58:
Bungie has more than 300% more employees than Valve lul.

In fairness, they actually make video games.

Got me.

Pretty hysterical tho. Bungie isn't a Ubisoft, they're just one studio in Bellevue, WA.

It frames how ridiculous Valve is with its 300 employees.

God forbid I bring up the 30% of gross Valve Tax in a thread where we're talking about EVEN MORE game developers losing their jobs. I mean I've been biting my tongue for the last 18 months, what's a few more hundred to get axed while PC gamers further bury their heads in the sand...

Slick wrote on Jul 31, 2024, 17:58:
Bungie has more than 300% more employees than Valve lul.

In fairness, they actually make video games.

Bungie has more than 300% more employees than Valve lul.

Also, all this talk of the "industry" just "needing" "infinite growth" is bullshit.

It's not that the industry isn't okay with stagnant growth for a year, it's that publicly-traded companies aren't okay with that.

Big. Fuck. Difference.

The employees suffer and lose jobs, the Higher ups rake in cash and bonuses. Nothing new sadly. Its all that corporate management knows anymore.

PHJF wrote on Jul 31, 2024, 16:17:
How the FUCK does Bungie have 1000+ employees??? They didn't even have 200 when they ran Halo!

My guess is that the live service takes up a lot of manpower. You have to crank out a lot of assets to justify the battle pass and endless grinds.

How the FUCK does Bungie have 1000+ employees??? They didn't even have 200 when they ran Halo!

https://kotaku.com/bungie-ceo-layoffs-locked-account-destiny-pete-parsons-1851610118

but Pete 'be brave' Parsons, Bungie’s CEO, wasn't laid off.

So much for being an independent subsidiary -- they stumbled and now Sony is taking the reins.

Layoffs? No, their jobs just go into the "vault". Like the stuff Destiny 2 players bought but can not get access to anymore because they are all in the "vault" now.

Xeth Nyrrow wrote on Jul 31, 2024, 13:32:
More corporate mismanagement in the games industry? Impossible.

Fastest way to look good at the quarter end balance sheet is to fire some people and preserve the illusion of infinite growth.

More corporate mismanagement in the games industry? Impossible.