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19.
 
Re: Quoteworthy
May 28, 2024, 09:41
Prez
 
19.
Re: Quoteworthy May 28, 2024, 09:41
May 28, 2024, 09:41
 Prez
 
And to be clear, I am not saying fuck game developers because my work sucked just as much. If anything, I have more of an appreciation for exactly how they must feel for being treated like that. Let's just stop pretending that the games industry is somehow unique in how badly it treats some of its hardest workers, because I am here to tell you that it isn't. I empathize with them even more because you really can't appreciate just how soul-crushing it is to be treated this way until you have been there. What makes their situation unique in my opinion is that they are creatives who probably opted out of more lucrative employment to remain doing a job that pays less but lets them create things that make our lives better. I was just a knuckle dragger working on military vessels and manufacturing plants. These people are artists who have passion, and instead of being lauded they are viewed as cogs in a machine serving only the quest for ever more profit until their usefulness in that endeavor is milked dry.

This comment was edited on May 28, 2024, 09:53.
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
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18.
 
Re: Quoteworthy
May 28, 2024, 08:52
Prez
 
18.
Re: Quoteworthy May 28, 2024, 08:52
May 28, 2024, 08:52
 Prez
 
Jim wrote on May 26, 2024, 22:13:
why is crunch a big deal in the game software industry whereas other jobs it is just another day

My thoughts exactly. I could match most game developers easily with how much I was exploited at work with the combination of the military and my decades-long blue collar work history. Please don't tell me that I just imagined the months-long 70 hour work weeks where I wasn't just coding; I was doing back-breaking physical labor. I have crashed into my own garage door because I fell asleep in my car following a 16-hour work day. Some people talk like they are an authority when they clearly are unaware what people have to go through. I feel like I am saying this constantly but there's more to the world than what you see just in front of your own nose.

This comment was edited on May 28, 2024, 09:07.
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
Avatar 17185
17.
 
Re: Quoteworthy
May 27, 2024, 12:36
17.
Re: Quoteworthy May 27, 2024, 12:36
May 27, 2024, 12:36
 
Crunch is completely unnecessary. It only exists to meet some arbitrary deadline. And there's zero shortage of studies that show it's counter productive anyway. After 10 hours work in a day most people are physically and mentally checked out anyway. I remember doing crunch at EA at thought it was the most asinine thing I've ever experienced in a work environment. It was the major reason I quit. No one ever died saying they wished they spent more time at work.

"Van Gogh painted alone and in despair and in madness and sold one picture in his entire life. Millions struggled alone, unrecognized, and struggled as heroically as any famous hero. Was it worthless? I knew it wasn't."
16.
 
Re: Quoteworthy
May 27, 2024, 12:30
16.
Re: Quoteworthy May 27, 2024, 12:30
May 27, 2024, 12:30
 
Droniac wrote on May 27, 2024, 03:37:
Teddy wrote on May 26, 2024, 23:32:
Because it ISN'T just another day in other jobs? Do you have any more disingenuous questions for us today? Crunch refers to mandatory overtime including weekends, weeks extending into the 80-100 hour range, often for months at a time. That is NOT normal in virtually any other job and pretending like it is doesn't make it alright.

You may wish to read the article.
Swen Vincke is seemingly talking about occasional overtime where offices were generally empty past 20:00 and only very rarely someone would work during weekends.
This sounds a lot more like occasional 50-60 hour workweeks rather than sustained 80-100 hour workweeks for months on end.
Especially given the context that this was always paid overtime.

50-60 hour workweeks are not uncommon for software developers in general.
Neither is working in evenings, at night, or during weekends.
Paid overtime is less common, especially for companies that crunch hard and often.

I have read the article, thank you for your condescending suggestion. What Vincke suggested is not a representation of what normal 'crunch' is in the industry, and they were a specific developer that very intentionally tried to avoid it for the sake of their employee health. His admission was "a little" crunch, which is not nearly the same as what EA, Activision and Ubi put their developers through in trying to push out their yearly sequels.
15.
 
Re: Quoteworthy
May 27, 2024, 12:26
15.
Re: Quoteworthy May 27, 2024, 12:26
May 27, 2024, 12:26
 
Jim wrote on May 27, 2024, 00:58:
Teddy wrote on May 26, 2024, 23:32:
Because it ISN'T just another day in other jobs? Do you have any more disingenuous questions for us today? Crunch refers to mandatory overtime including weekends, weeks extending into the 80-100 hour range, often for months at a time. That is NOT normal in virtually any other job and pretending like it is doesn't make it alright.
lol, grow up within a family business, or be a doctor, or be a lawyer, or work multiple jobs to have your family survive. This is not a new thing, it is a problem for many industries.

Doctor, Lawyer or Entrepreneur. That's 3. Thank you for proving my point, that it does not exist in virtually any other job. 3 jobs out of tens of thousands is not a significant statistic. Working multiple jobs does not count as crunch either, no matter how much you want to pretend it does.
14.
 
Re: Quoteworthy
May 27, 2024, 12:24
14.
Re: Quoteworthy May 27, 2024, 12:24
May 27, 2024, 12:24
 
Burrito of Peace wrote on May 27, 2024, 09:27:
Jim wrote on May 27, 2024, 00:58:
lol, grow up within a family business, or be a doctor, or be a lawyer, or work multiple jobs to have your family survive. This is not a new thing, it is a problem for many industries.

I have had a unique career trajectory that covers one of your examples and includes different industries.

I grew up within a family business, specifically a functioning cattle ranch. There was never "crunch time" on the ranch. Not during calving seasons (spring and fall) nor during the usual on-site vet visits for the checkup of the herd. If you try to "crunch" when dealing with 1300+ pound animals, you, the cattle, or both are going to be injured because you'll be tired and make stupid mistakes. If you're constantly "crunching" in a family business, odds are you are undercapitalized and understaffed. The correct choice is to narrow your scope to fit with the resources available to you. Burning yourself and your staff out is, quite bluntly, a very stupid way to run a business and is one of the top reasons why many small businesses fail.

I have also worked as a hardware engineer at Intel several times in my career. 50 hour work weeks were common there because that was the Intel Lifestyle. But 80+ hours? Not a chance in Hell. That was a sign of bad project management and you would be absolutely crucified for it in a PR if you were the project lead/planner. I've also worked at Apple and Microsoft. Apple never "crunched" and Microsoft almost always "crunched". The difference in leadership style and training between all three companies was quite different. Two knew how to plan, and stuck to the plan, and the other didn't. I'll let you draw your own conclusion as to which is which.

Next I moved in to the game industry for about a decade where "crunch time" was rampant and expected. That was solely due to bad project planning and forecasting. It really does look like no one has really any clue how to properly plan and staff a project in this industry. More to the point, the industry doesn't want to because it relies on the notion that people are so damn thrilled to be working on games that they'll happily take whatever abuse is thrown at the employees. They're also sadly correct. "Crunch" becomes expected because it is an easy way to sacrifice physical and mental health to the almighty dollar gods. This is not OK and should not be tolerated.

Finally, I moved in to IT. My employer, with one rare exception, does not do crunch. Ever. You put your 40 in and then you go home. Proper project management is expected and demanded for upper management like me. You are held personally accountable for every hour over 40 that needs to be worked by either you or your direct reports and you better have a goddamned excellent justification for why it happened. This month has been that one exception with four weeks of 80 hour Hell weeks and you can bet I was called by my VP to the board to justify it. In this case, the problem wasn't a lack of planning. It was Broadcom's pricing changes to ESXi that was going to raise our costs by more than 10 times the amount we were currently paying per annum. So the team got together, we discussed a rapid transition plan before the next cost cycle hit, prototyped the replacement, put it in to limited torture testing, and then implemented the change over. Hundreds of servers and thousands of VMs either migrated over or fully rebuilt from the ground up on the new platform. But this is the only time we've ever had to do it and it will never happen again under my watch. It is not a healthy way to run a team, department, or project. I'm grateful for my team. To a person, all of them worked diligently and smartly and we got the job done.

As you can tell from the above, "crunch" happens for exactly two reasons; poor planning or poor practices. Neither should be accepted and neither are an efficient way to run an organization.

Well said. Allthumbsup
13.
 
Re: Quoteworthy
May 27, 2024, 10:49
13.
Re: Quoteworthy May 27, 2024, 10:49
May 27, 2024, 10:49
 
When I tested on Skyrim, the normal hours were 10 hours by 5 days with volunteer weekend work. Sometimes late hours if there was a build cooked late to smoke test. All optional and volunteer. Overtime and crunch-time were the only time I felt I had a solid paycheck. I hated when crunch time became taboo and stopped getting paid overtime.

PS: If ya got Skyrim QA jokes, my response is the bugs everyone found were already logged into the database and management pushed the product out early to hit a 11-11-11 release date. The build that came out in February, should've been the release.
12.
 
Re: Quoteworthy
May 27, 2024, 09:27
12.
Re: Quoteworthy May 27, 2024, 09:27
May 27, 2024, 09:27
 
Jim wrote on May 27, 2024, 00:58:
lol, grow up within a family business, or be a doctor, or be a lawyer, or work multiple jobs to have your family survive. This is not a new thing, it is a problem for many industries.

I have had a unique career trajectory that covers one of your examples and includes different industries.

I grew up within a family business, specifically a functioning cattle ranch. There was never "crunch time" on the ranch. Not during calving seasons (spring and fall) nor during the usual on-site vet visits for the checkup of the herd. If you try to "crunch" when dealing with 1300+ pound animals, you, the cattle, or both are going to be injured because you'll be tired and make stupid mistakes. If you're constantly "crunching" in a family business, odds are you are undercapitalized and understaffed. The correct choice is to narrow your scope to fit with the resources available to you. Burning yourself and your staff out is, quite bluntly, a very stupid way to run a business and is one of the top reasons why many small businesses fail.

I have also worked as a hardware engineer at Intel several times in my career. 50 hour work weeks were common there because that was the Intel Lifestyle. But 80+ hours? Not a chance in Hell. That was a sign of bad project management and you would be absolutely crucified for it in a PR if you were the project lead/planner. I've also worked at Apple and Microsoft. Apple never "crunched" and Microsoft almost always "crunched". The difference in leadership style and training between all three companies was quite different. Two knew how to plan, and stuck to the plan, and the other didn't. I'll let you draw your own conclusion as to which is which.

Next I moved in to the game industry for about a decade where "crunch time" was rampant and expected. That was solely due to bad project planning and forecasting. It really does look like no one has really any clue how to properly plan and staff a project in this industry. More to the point, the industry doesn't want to because it relies on the notion that people are so damn thrilled to be working on games that they'll happily take whatever abuse is thrown at the employees. They're also sadly correct. "Crunch" becomes expected because it is an easy way to sacrifice physical and mental health to the almighty dollar gods. This is not OK and should not be tolerated.

Finally, I moved in to IT. My employer, with one rare exception, does not do crunch. Ever. You put your 40 in and then you go home. Proper project management is expected and demanded for upper management like me. You are held personally accountable for every hour over 40 that needs to be worked by either you or your direct reports and you better have a goddamned excellent justification for why it happened. This month has been that one exception with four weeks of 80 hour Hell weeks and you can bet I was called by my VP to the board to justify it. In this case, the problem wasn't a lack of planning. It was Broadcom's pricing changes to ESXi that was going to raise our costs by more than 10 times the amount we were currently paying per annum. So the team got together, we discussed a rapid transition plan before the next cost cycle hit, prototyped the replacement, put it in to limited torture testing, and then implemented the change over. Hundreds of servers and thousands of VMs either migrated over or fully rebuilt from the ground up on the new platform. But this is the only time we've ever had to do it and it will never happen again under my watch. It is not a healthy way to run a team, department, or project. I'm grateful for my team. To a person, all of them worked diligently and smartly and we got the job done.

As you can tell from the above, "crunch" happens for exactly two reasons; poor planning or poor practices. Neither should be accepted and neither are an efficient way to run an organization.
"Just take a look around you, what do you see? Pain, suffering, and misery." -Black Sabbath, Killing Yourself to Live.

“Man was born free, and he is everywhere in chains” -Jean-Jacques Rousseau
Avatar 21247
11.
 
Re: Quoteworthy
May 27, 2024, 04:36
11.
Re: Quoteworthy May 27, 2024, 04:36
May 27, 2024, 04:36
 
It's only evil if it's Ubi, EA, Microsoft etc.

Beloved developers can crunch away. Except CD Project... But that was only because Cyberpunk was buggy at the beginning. If it would have been a masterpiece from day 0, they'd have gotten zero pushback for crunch.
10.
 
Re: Quoteworthy
May 27, 2024, 03:37
10.
Re: Quoteworthy May 27, 2024, 03:37
May 27, 2024, 03:37
 
Teddy wrote on May 26, 2024, 23:32:
Because it ISN'T just another day in other jobs? Do you have any more disingenuous questions for us today? Crunch refers to mandatory overtime including weekends, weeks extending into the 80-100 hour range, often for months at a time. That is NOT normal in virtually any other job and pretending like it is doesn't make it alright.

You may wish to read the article.
Swen Vincke is seemingly talking about occasional overtime where offices were generally empty past 20:00 and only very rarely someone would work during weekends.
This sounds a lot more like occasional 50-60 hour workweeks rather than sustained 80-100 hour workweeks for months on end.
Especially given the context that this was always paid overtime.

50-60 hour workweeks are not uncommon for software developers in general.
Neither is working in evenings, at night, or during weekends.
Paid overtime is less common, especially for companies that crunch hard and often.
9.
 
Re: Quoteworthy
May 27, 2024, 01:50
9.
Re: Quoteworthy May 27, 2024, 01:50
May 27, 2024, 01:50
 
Jim wrote on May 27, 2024, 00:58:
Teddy wrote on May 26, 2024, 23:32:
Because it ISN'T just another day in other jobs? Do you have any more disingenuous questions for us today? Crunch refers to mandatory overtime including weekends, weeks extending into the 80-100 hour range, often for months at a time. That is NOT normal in virtually any other job and pretending like it is doesn't make it alright.
lol, grow up within a family business, or be a doctor, or be a lawyer, or work multiple jobs to have your family survive. This is not a new thing, it is a problem for many industries.
Did you just compare game developers with lawyers and doctors? I don't say this often unironically, but BRUH...
8.
 
Re: Quoteworthy
May 27, 2024, 00:58
Jim
8.
Re: Quoteworthy May 27, 2024, 00:58
May 27, 2024, 00:58
Jim
 
Teddy wrote on May 26, 2024, 23:32:
Because it ISN'T just another day in other jobs? Do you have any more disingenuous questions for us today? Crunch refers to mandatory overtime including weekends, weeks extending into the 80-100 hour range, often for months at a time. That is NOT normal in virtually any other job and pretending like it is doesn't make it alright.
lol, grow up within a family business, or be a doctor, or be a lawyer, or work multiple jobs to have your family survive. This is not a new thing, it is a problem for many industries.
7.
 
Re: Quoteworthy
May 27, 2024, 00:12
7.
Re: Quoteworthy May 27, 2024, 00:12
May 27, 2024, 00:12
 
Although I have to wonder what the quality of life for devs is, under a Larian crunch versus a AAA publisher breathing down your necks like Ubi/EA/Blizz.
Avatar 55108
6.
 
Re: Quoteworthy
May 26, 2024, 23:32
6.
Re: Quoteworthy May 26, 2024, 23:32
May 26, 2024, 23:32
 
Jim wrote on May 26, 2024, 22:13:
why is crunch a big deal in the game software industry whereas other jobs it is just another day

Because it ISN'T just another day in other jobs? Do you have any more disingenuous questions for us today? Crunch refers to mandatory overtime including weekends, weeks extending into the 80-100 hour range, often for months at a time. That is NOT normal in virtually any other job and pretending like it is doesn't make it alright.
5.
 
Re: Quoteworthy
May 26, 2024, 22:13
Jim
5.
Re: Quoteworthy May 26, 2024, 22:13
May 26, 2024, 22:13
Jim
 
why is crunch a big deal in the game software industry whereas other jobs it is just another day
4.
 
Re: Quoteworthy
May 26, 2024, 20:48
4.
Re: Quoteworthy May 26, 2024, 20:48
May 26, 2024, 20:48
 
yonder wrote on May 26, 2024, 16:51:
Where's the outrage?
Isn't crunch evil 100% of the time with no exceptions because context and specificity are irrelevant?
I'm so disappointed here.

I'll wait for the strawman.

The straw man you provided?
3.
 
Re: Quoteworthy
May 26, 2024, 20:20
3.
Re: Quoteworthy May 26, 2024, 20:20
May 26, 2024, 20:20
 
yonder wrote on May 26, 2024, 16:51:
Where's the outrage?
Isn't crunch evil 100% of the time with no exceptions because context and specificity are irrelevant?
I'm so disappointed here.

I'll wait for the strawman.
Crunch is rarely ever good, but it appears to be a necessary evil these days.
Avatar 24330
2.
 
Re: Quoteworthy
May 26, 2024, 16:51
2.
Re: Quoteworthy May 26, 2024, 16:51
May 26, 2024, 16:51
 
Where's the outrage?
Isn't crunch evil 100% of the time with no exceptions because context and specificity are irrelevant?
I'm so disappointed here.

I'll wait for the strawman.
1.
 
Re: Quoteworthy
May 26, 2024, 15:31
1.
Re: Quoteworthy May 26, 2024, 15:31
May 26, 2024, 15:31
 
"a bit"
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
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