Out of the Blue

Happy Passover! The commemoration lasts eight days, and will conclude at sundown on April 30th. To all who are celebrating, Chag Pesach Sameach (thanks My Jewish Learning).

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16.
 
Re: OotB: Happy Passover
Apr 24, 2024, 14:02
16.
Re: OotB: Happy Passover Apr 24, 2024, 14:02
Apr 24, 2024, 14:02
 
Prez wrote on Apr 24, 2024, 12:17:
...Programming hasn't caught up with hardware. All of us have multicore systems and few of the programs we run are truly multithreaded. Why? Because it is hard as Hell to do right. It also doesn't help that the scheduler for Windows is one of the aforementioned crackheads in the cache. So, understandably, programmers have to play it safe because no one wants an application that crashes all the time.

Nothing to offer the overall discussion, since I barely understand most of what is being said. However, the quoted portion reminds me of something I have always wondered, and this has finally possibly answered it. I have, on several occasions, used different monitoring tools to see that often CPU core workload is often ~100% on core 1, maybe 20 or 30% on core 2, and then the rest are zeroes. That has never made sense to me. I guess a follow-up question would be to ask what is the benefit of having a multi-thread cpu if hardly anyone bothers to program for the extra cores? (I'm not even sure if 'multi-thread' and 'multi-core' mean the same thing)
I wish I knew. I install and configure Oracle Middleware products professionally. Installation is a slow pain sometimes because Oracle writes the inventory for the products using a single thread rather than multi-threading, and it takes FOR-EV-ER. The installation could take 10 minutes but the inventory process could take an hour, on a 64-core server, it just pegs one poor core 100% leaving the rest at 0%. Been like that over a decade now.
15.
 
Re: OotB: Happy Passover
Apr 24, 2024, 12:17
Prez
 
15.
Re: OotB: Happy Passover Apr 24, 2024, 12:17
Apr 24, 2024, 12:17
 Prez
 
...Programming hasn't caught up with hardware. All of us have multicore systems and few of the programs we run are truly multithreaded. Why? Because it is hard as Hell to do right. It also doesn't help that the scheduler for Windows is one of the aforementioned crackheads in the cache. So, understandably, programmers have to play it safe because no one wants an application that crashes all the time.

Nothing to offer the overall discussion, since I barely understand most of what is being said. However, the quoted portion reminds me of something I have always wondered, and this has finally possibly answered it. I have, on several occasions, used different monitoring tools to see that often CPU core workload is often ~100% on core 1, maybe 20 or 30% on core 2, and then the rest are zeroes. That has never made sense to me. I guess a follow-up question would be to ask what is the benefit of having a multi-thread cpu if hardly anyone bothers to program for the extra cores? (I'm not even sure if 'multi-thread' and 'multi-core' mean the same thing)
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
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14.
 
Re: OotB: Happy Passover
Apr 24, 2024, 11:21
Enahs
 
14.
Re: OotB: Happy Passover Apr 24, 2024, 11:21
Apr 24, 2024, 11:21
 Enahs
 
Kxmode wrote on Apr 23, 2024, 21:31:
Enahs wrote on Apr 23, 2024, 20:59:
Kxmode wrote on Apr 23, 2024, 20:42:
Enahs wrote on Apr 23, 2024, 15:43:
Kxmode wrote on Apr 23, 2024, 13:45:


My $700 ASUS z790 gaming motherboard features DirectStorage support and PCIe lanes for storage devices. However, I was not fully utilizing these motherboard features because Horizon Forbidden West was installed on an external USB SSD.

Exactly, you said the key-word I forgot in my first post, USB.

Over the USB port none of that matters, your CPU is probably the USB host controller in this situation, which is why it is effecting everything so badly. If you put the SSD inside the computer via "proper" drive connection, I highly suspect the game would behave just fine.
You're telling me to do something that I already figured out and corrected. I was simply reporting the results. I was also saying all this nonsense could have been avoided had Sony simply included the SSD read speed in the PC specs.

You are not understanding me. I am saying the issue is not likely the drive speed. It is the fact that had that drive going through a USB port, requiring your CPU to handle everything with regards to getting the data off the drive and into memory, clogging resources and throwing everything horribly off. This is what is likely causing the horrible issue, not the fact that the drive is a bit slower. The idea of bypassing the USB port and testing it on the drive was only a intellectual curiosity for you suggestion to verify this hypothesis.
I am free of all prejudice. I hate everyone equally.
- W. C. Fields
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13.
 
Re: OotB: Happy Passover
Apr 24, 2024, 10:27
13.
Re: OotB: Happy Passover Apr 24, 2024, 10:27
Apr 24, 2024, 10:27
 
Madoc Owain wrote on Apr 24, 2024, 09:18:
I remember back in the day when I unplugged every USB device and disabled the bus to save an extra 5-10% CPU to get extra frames out of games like TIE Fighter. How times have changed!
All you need to do now to save an extra 5-10% CPU and get extra frames is NOT use an intel 13th or 14th generation core processor. Wink
"I expect death to be nothingness and by removing from me all possible fears of death, I am thankful to atheism." Isaac Asimov
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12.
 
Re: OotB: Happy Passover
Apr 24, 2024, 09:18
12.
Re: OotB: Happy Passover Apr 24, 2024, 09:18
Apr 24, 2024, 09:18
 
I remember back in the day when I unplugged every USB device and disabled the bus to save an extra 5-10% CPU to get extra frames out of games like TIE Fighter. How times have changed!
11.
 
Re: OotB: Happy Passover
Apr 23, 2024, 21:31
Kxmode
 
11.
Re: OotB: Happy Passover Apr 23, 2024, 21:31
Apr 23, 2024, 21:31
 Kxmode
 
Enahs wrote on Apr 23, 2024, 20:59:
Kxmode wrote on Apr 23, 2024, 20:42:
Enahs wrote on Apr 23, 2024, 15:43:
Kxmode wrote on Apr 23, 2024, 13:45:


My $700 ASUS z790 gaming motherboard features DirectStorage support and PCIe lanes for storage devices. However, I was not fully utilizing these motherboard features because Horizon Forbidden West was installed on an external USB SSD.

Exactly, you said the key-word I forgot in my first post, USB.

Over the USB port none of that matters, your CPU is probably the USB host controller in this situation, which is why it is effecting everything so badly. If you put the SSD inside the computer via "proper" drive connection, I highly suspect the game would behave just fine.
You're telling me to do something that I already figured out and corrected. I was simply reporting the results. I was also saying all this nonsense could have been avoided had Sony simply included the SSD read speed in the PC specs.
"Listen, Peter... with great horsepower comes... the sickest drifts..." - source
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10.
 
Re: OotB: Happy Passover
Apr 23, 2024, 20:59
Enahs
 
10.
Re: OotB: Happy Passover Apr 23, 2024, 20:59
Apr 23, 2024, 20:59
 Enahs
 
Kxmode wrote on Apr 23, 2024, 20:42:
Enahs wrote on Apr 23, 2024, 15:43:
Kxmode wrote on Apr 23, 2024, 13:45:

It is probably not the speed of the SSD and probably has more to do with your MB/CPU and that there might not be any dedicated IO and thus everything has to go through the CPU to even get to memory, would be my guess.

My $700 ASUS z790 gaming motherboard features DirectStorage support and PCIe lanes for storage devices. However, I was not fully utilizing these motherboard features because Horizon Forbidden West was installed on an external USB SSD.

Exactly, you said the key-word I forgot in my first post, USB.

Over the USB port none of that matters, your CPU is probably the USB host controller in this situation, which is why it is effecting everything so badly. If you put the SSD inside the computer via "proper" drive connection, I highly suspect the game would behave just fine.
I am free of all prejudice. I hate everyone equally.
- W. C. Fields
Avatar 15513
9.
 
Re: OotB: Happy Passover
Apr 23, 2024, 20:42
Kxmode
 
9.
Re: OotB: Happy Passover Apr 23, 2024, 20:42
Apr 23, 2024, 20:42
 Kxmode
 
Enahs wrote on Apr 23, 2024, 15:43:
Kxmode wrote on Apr 23, 2024, 13:45:

It is probably not the speed of the SSD and probably has more to do with your MB/CPU and that there might not be any dedicated IO and thus everything has to go through the CPU to even get to memory, would be my guess.

My $700 ASUS z790 gaming motherboard features DirectStorage support and PCIe lanes for storage devices. However, I was not fully utilizing these motherboard features because Horizon Forbidden West was installed on an external USB SSD.
"Listen, Peter... with great horsepower comes... the sickest drifts..." - source
Avatar 18786
8.
 
Re: OotB: Happy Passover
Apr 23, 2024, 20:01
8.
Re: OotB: Happy Passover Apr 23, 2024, 20:01
Apr 23, 2024, 20:01
 
Jim wrote on Apr 23, 2024, 18:38:
I recently was having stutter and loading issues when my games were on hard drive. No real reason for it, IMO. Other better looking more textured games did not have this problem. Moving it to SSD solved the issue to a ridiculous degree. The claim then is "well, the games were built for SSD". That just seems like a BS excuse, where the game is probably thrashing/shortening the life of my SSD so they can use it for storage bullshit instead of the 64GB of ram I have. Because shitty consoles can have SSD but their ram is going to be extremely limited, and for that reason PC owners have to put up with BS.

I'm not going to "well actually" you but you are incorrect. I'll give you what I know from the hardware side and what little I have gleaned from the software side.

There are some factors at play here that you are either unaware of or are, perhaps, mistaken about.

Let's talk about seek times because that's the first part in the data loading chain (the data being loaded is irrelevant). On an HDD, I have to wait for the platter with the information to spin round to the magnetic head to catch the first cluster the data is stored on and, if the data is not contiguously laid out. I then have to wait for the platter to spin around again and hope that the head doesn't have to move very far either. Rotational sync is a thing but that's for a different topic and goes balls deep in to hard drive firmware programming, timing, charge rate, and density.

Now I assume you are using NTFS and its default 4K block size. Since Windows is a schizophrenic mess to this day, I am also going to assume that your data is not contiguously laid out on the platters of your disk. So let's say that I want to load in a 40MB texture file. Just that one texture. The average HDD seek time is 9ms. Do the math and I am looking at ~3 seconds to load a 40MB file. There's some variance there, naturally, as part of the data probably is contiguous and not scattered all over Hell's half-acre. That also assumes you are not running a shingled magnetic disc (SMR) AND that you are not running some 20TB monstrosity with a track density that would make Sir Mix-A-Lot horny. Because if you were, seek times would be even slower, especially if the data was further out on the platter.

SSDs and NVMes aren't hindered by the same latency problems because, one, they're not mechanical and there is little to no wait required to read a cell, just whatever it takes to read the data out of the cells as indicated by the file system journal. Two, the pci express bus is much, much faster than what your SATA controller can handle. Because that SATA controller also has a latency since it is handling multiple disk channels simultaneously because it is a serial connection. Now, you can bypass some of that latency with native command queuing but you'll never eliminate it entirely. Even if you only have one disk attached to a SATA controller, it still assumes that those other channels might just get plugged in at some point so it checks them anyway. You also have to understand that your 6GB/s throughput is theoretical. You, personally, are never going to hit that. Ever. Your system is running a bunch of processes in the background, doing logging, your OS is polling devices, dog knows whatever background apps you have running that are also doing their own thing. ALL of it takes of disk time. All of it.

But that's just one file and there are thousands of files you are probably loading at startup and then streaming in to a buffer during play. Every one of those files is going to have a seek latency inherent to them. And that latency stacks. It also doesn't help that your buffer queue isn't that large onboard a hard disk anyway so most of it is dumped in to a RAM cache until it meets the threshold for being marked as cold and dumped out of the cache. "Great! I have loads of RAM! We can just use that!"

Yeah...no. Because that cache is volatile. It is therefore subject to interrupts, dumps, and cosmic particles (really). It's also a very busy and chaotic place. Seriously, throw an analyzer on your I2C pins (if your motherboard has them) and watch what happens to RAM. It's like crackheads and tweakers seeing who can bounce off the walls the fastest. There is also the problem that you do not have enough RAM. No, not even at 64GB (which is a total waste for a desktop unless you're doing really RAM intensive shit like DBs, VMs, containers, video editing, rendering, or running a RAM drive, for just a few examples). Because all 64GB isn't available to you to use. I also have 64GB in my system and I am not doing a damn thing right now except I have two Firefox windows open and 29 tabs open between them. My "available" memory is 46.2GB. The rest is lost to background processes, the OS, and other tasks. That "free" ram is going to change dynamically as I use the system. That's no bueno for when your program expects a constant state.

I'm going to be honest with you here. Programming hasn't caught up with hardware. All of us have multicore systems and few of the programs we run are truly multithreaded. Why? Because it is hard as Hell to do right. It also doesn't help that the scheduler for Windows is one of the aforementioned crackheads in the cache. So, understandably, programmers have to play it safe because no one wants an application that crashes all the time.

Next we get in to the game itself. All programs have timing. All of them. Now, I am not a code monkey and I will let one of our resident code monkeys go in to a deep dive if they want to, but just assume that a program expects X data to be loaded in Y timeframe. If Y timeframe elapses and your hardware isn't feeding the data fast enough, the program hits a wait state until the data becomes available and then proceeds. That is when you notice stutter or long load times. It's why your progress bar seems to jump forward instead of being a smooth progression.

It's latency. It's all latency. Programmers, rightfully, are shooting towards what we on the hardware side used to call MCC or Most Common Configuration. Right now, that's a quad core, 8GB of RAM, and an SSD. Only the lowliest of shitboxes being sold at Walmart come with a spinning rust disk anymore and even those are phasing out rapidly. So programmers are targeting that MCC and expecting Y latency. Your system fell outside of both the MCC and therefore the ability to delivery Y latency. The problem isn't them, it's you.

Spinning rust is cheap storage, I get it. I have about 60 hard drives in different machines and disk shelves sitting just to the right of me in my rack. But they only work well today in aggregate, i.e. a RAID setup. Being able to dump 10TB of data across a fibre connection and letting the HBAs sort out what goes where overwhelmingly provides better throughput than if I just had a handful of individual, huge drives.

Consoles weren't holding you back. You were holding your system back by hanging on to a piece of hardware that is largely archaic and not particularly suitable to modern personal computing standards.
"Just take a look around you, what do you see? Pain, suffering, and misery." -Black Sabbath, Killing Yourself to Live.

“Man was born free, and he is everywhere in chains” -Jean-Jacques Rousseau
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7.
 
Re: OotB: Happy Passover
Apr 23, 2024, 19:06
7.
Re: OotB: Happy Passover Apr 23, 2024, 19:06
Apr 23, 2024, 19:06
 
the game is probably thrashing/shortening the life of my SSD
I burn through 2 ssd’s a week playing solitaire and minesweeper.
"I expect death to be nothingness and by removing from me all possible fears of death, I am thankful to atheism." Isaac Asimov
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6.
 
Re: OotB: Happy Passover
Apr 23, 2024, 18:38
Jim
6.
Re: OotB: Happy Passover Apr 23, 2024, 18:38
Apr 23, 2024, 18:38
Jim
 
I recently was having stutter and loading issues when my games were on hard drive. No real reason for it, IMO. Other better looking more textured games did not have this problem. Moving it to SSD solved the issue to a ridiculous degree. The claim then is "well, the games were built for SSD". That just seems like a BS excuse, where the game is probably thrashing/shortening the life of my SSD so they can use it for storage bullshit instead of the 64GB of ram I have. Because shitty consoles can have SSD but their ram is going to be extremely limited, and for that reason PC owners have to put up with BS.
5.
 
Re: OotB: Happy Passover
Apr 23, 2024, 15:43
Enahs
 
5.
Re: OotB: Happy Passover Apr 23, 2024, 15:43
Apr 23, 2024, 15:43
 Enahs
 
Kxmode wrote on Apr 23, 2024, 13:45:
I discovered a significant issue on my new machine that caused long shader compilation times in Horizon Forbidden West. Initially, the game was installed on an external SanDisk SSD (1050MB/s, USB-C). The difference was staggering when I reinstalled it on an internal SAMSUNG 990 PRO M.2 SSD (Read speeds up to 7,450 MB/s). Shader compilation times that took up to 20 minutes are now reduced to just a second to continue or load a game. The shader rendering happens so quickly that there's virtually no noticeable compilation as I traverse the game's diverse land, sea, and air terrains. Further, I observed improved CPU temperatures, stabilized high FPS, very low frame times, and reduced instances of shader compilations during gameplay. This enhancement has markedly improved the overall gaming experience.

It appears that SSD speed is a significant detail that Sony does not specify in the PC specs for Horizon Forbidden West Complete Edition:

- Minimum: Storage: 150 GB SSD space
- Recommended: Storage: 150 GB SSD space
- High: Storage: 150 GB SSD space
- Very high: Storage: 150 GB SSD space

Given that not all SSDs perform equally, the specifications should ideally state:

- Minimum: Storage: 150 GB SSD space (Min Read Speed 4,000 MB/s)
- Recommended: Storage: 150 GB SSD space (Min Read Speed 5,000 MB/s)
- High: Storage: 150 GB SSD space (Min Read Speed 6,000 MB/s)
- Very High: Storage: 150 GB SSD space (Min Read Speed 7,000 MB/s)

Stating that 4,000 MB/s is the minimum storage speed ensures that everyone will experience good storage performance.

As a best practice, publishers of any game that relies heavily on shader compilation should include the minimum SSD read speed in the official specs. This information ensures gamers can enjoy game performance.

It is probably not the speed of the SSD and probably has more to do with your MB/CPU and that there might not be any dedicated IO and thus everything has to go through the CPU to even get to memory, would be my guess.
I am free of all prejudice. I hate everyone equally.
- W. C. Fields
Avatar 15513
4.
 
Re: OotB: Happy Passover
Apr 23, 2024, 15:22
4.
Re: OotB: Happy Passover Apr 23, 2024, 15:22
Apr 23, 2024, 15:22
 
FTC votes to ban noncompete agreements.
"I expect death to be nothingness and by removing from me all possible fears of death, I am thankful to atheism." Isaac Asimov
Avatar 58135
3.
 
Diabetes
Apr 23, 2024, 13:52
3.
Diabetes Apr 23, 2024, 13:52
Apr 23, 2024, 13:52
 
Low-carb diets do not work for the simple reason that most people find it impossible to stick to one. If they were good at dieting, they wouldn't have Type 2 diabetes in the first place. Taking an occasional shot or pill is far easier for many to manage.
2.
 
Re: OotB: Happy Passover
Apr 23, 2024, 13:45
Kxmode
 
2.
Re: OotB: Happy Passover Apr 23, 2024, 13:45
Apr 23, 2024, 13:45
 Kxmode
 
I discovered a significant issue on my new machine that caused long shader compilation times in Horizon Forbidden West. Initially, the game was installed on an external SanDisk SSD (1050MB/s, USB-C). The difference was staggering when I reinstalled it on an internal SAMSUNG 990 PRO M.2 SSD (Read speeds up to 7,450 MB/s). Shader compilation times that took up to 20 minutes are now reduced to just a second to continue or load a game. The shader rendering happens so quickly that there's virtually no noticeable compilation as I traverse the game's diverse land, sea, and air terrains. Further, I observed improved CPU temperatures, stabilized high FPS, very low frame times, and reduced instances of shader compilations during gameplay. This enhancement has markedly improved the overall gaming experience.

It appears that SSD speed is a significant detail that Sony does not specify in the PC specs for Horizon Forbidden West Complete Edition:

- Minimum: Storage: 150 GB SSD space
- Recommended: Storage: 150 GB SSD space
- High: Storage: 150 GB SSD space
- Very high: Storage: 150 GB SSD space

Given that not all SSDs perform equally, the specifications should ideally state:

- Minimum: Storage: 150 GB SSD space (Min Read Speed 4,000 MB/s)
- Recommended: Storage: 150 GB SSD space (Min Read Speed 5,000 MB/s)
- High: Storage: 150 GB SSD space (Min Read Speed 6,000 MB/s)
- Very High: Storage: 150 GB SSD space (Min Read Speed 7,000 MB/s)

Stating that 4,000 MB/s is the minimum storage speed ensures that everyone will experience good storage performance.

As a best practice, publishers of any game that relies heavily on shader compilation should include the minimum SSD read speed in the official specs. This information ensures gamers can enjoy game performance.
"Listen, Peter... with great horsepower comes... the sickest drifts..." - source
Avatar 18786
1.
 
Re: OotB: Happy Passover
Apr 23, 2024, 12:22
1.
Re: OotB: Happy Passover Apr 23, 2024, 12:22
Apr 23, 2024, 12:22
 
going good until he skipped the part about the spark plugs
Umm, maybe he was referring to diesel engines. Yeah, that's it, diesel engines. Idea
,.,.,.,.,,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,,.,.,.,
That pocket portable key casting doohickey was sweet. But w/the fragility of those casts I'd squirt some "Lock-ease" Graphited Lock Fluid into the lock while making the casting.
"I expect death to be nothingness and by removing from me all possible fears of death, I am thankful to atheism." Isaac Asimov
Avatar 58135
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