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17.
 
Re: All Access
Apr 3, 2024, 17:05
17.
Re: All Access Apr 3, 2024, 17:05
Apr 3, 2024, 17:05
 
nada
"I expect death to be nothingness and by removing from me all possible fears of death, I am thankful to atheism." Isaac Asimov
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16.
 
Re: All Access
Apr 3, 2024, 14:41
16.
Re: All Access Apr 3, 2024, 14:41
Apr 3, 2024, 14:41
 
Armengar wrote on Apr 3, 2024, 11:43:
9 out of 10 cars sold are now EVs in my country. Neighbouring ones are much the same too. We have embraced EVs but we do have cheap electricity and very good infrastructure to charge EVs (we are an energy exporter).

I read that frequently and, invariably, when you ask where that person is from they will tell you that they are from a country with a population that size of that of Georgia or Virginia with a road network that is exponentially less than that of the States.

I am not bagging on you, Armengar, but scale is a massive issue to overcome as is entrenched beliefs and mindsets.
"Just take a look around you, what do you see? Pain, suffering, and misery." -Black Sabbath, Killing Yourself to Live.

“Man was born free, and he is everywhere in chains” -Jean-Jacques Rousseau
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15.
 
Re: All Access
Apr 3, 2024, 14:37
15.
Re: All Access Apr 3, 2024, 14:37
Apr 3, 2024, 14:37
 
Beamer wrote on Apr 3, 2024, 11:32:
Yup. And not just ours. China and Europe. Car manufacturers won't keep investing in multiple ICE platforms just for the US.

They will if there is money to be made. If the mass market isn't there for EVs, those manufacturers aren't going to cede the market to other manufacturers that will meet what the market wants. They'll continue to do what they are now, offer niche products for EVholics and ICE products for everyone else.

Beamer wrote on Apr 3, 2024, 11:32:
Burrito and I have had this discussion before. The majority of pickup truck users don't use the towing capacity at all. Like, the vast majority. Over 90%. Some do. Work trucks aren't going away. Ford isn't going to drop the ICE F150 when the EV version can't do what the ICE one can. There's still work needs. And those versions will still be sold to consumers with similar needs or desires.

We have and I largely agree with you. But it isn't about actual capabilities to the suburbanites and their garage queens, it's about the desired capability. You can tell someone straight to their face "You will never tow a boat" and their immediate response is going to be "But I might want to and I want the ability to do so if I choose." The latter part is key. It's what they want versus what is their actual need. We have literal lifetimes worth of advertising selling products to people based upon what they "deserve" and "want". That mindset isn't going to change here in the US for a long, long time to come. Especially with a country that still glorifies car culture and builds everything around automobiles. Which makes sense given the vast distances within the US.

Beamer wrote on Apr 3, 2024, 11:32:
But, at some point, it's hard to imagine that the EV capabilities won't catch up or surpass. Maybe it's 2035. Maybe it's 2050. But it's coming.

Maybe and that is a moderate "maybe". ICE power has been around for more than a hundred years at this point and there have been several attempts to dethrone it. Steam, electric, turbine, and even pneumatic (Seriously, look it up sometime. It was wild) have attempted. All failed. Yes, there is absolutely a climate crises but most people don't give a fuck. Oh, they'll whine and cry about it but they won't change one single thing about their life. This on top of the fact that industry, which is far and away the largest contributor to climate change, isn't going to do a single thing if it means even one fraction of a penny will have to spent or not captured. The US Government certainly isn't coming down on industry anytime soon because that would mean that politicians would lose their bribery money.

Beamer wrote on Apr 3, 2024, 11:32:
The electronic waste, issue, though is a different concern that won't go away without government intervention that I don't see coming.

Agreed and because of the previous sentence I wrote. No government that is bought and paid for by corporations is going to pass any meaningful legislation that dries up that revenue stream.
"Just take a look around you, what do you see? Pain, suffering, and misery." -Black Sabbath, Killing Yourself to Live.

“Man was born free, and he is everywhere in chains” -Jean-Jacques Rousseau
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14.
 
Re: All Access
Apr 3, 2024, 11:43
14.
Re: All Access Apr 3, 2024, 11:43
Apr 3, 2024, 11:43
 
9 out of 10 cars sold are now EVs in my country. Neighbouring ones are much the same too. We have embraced EVs but we do have cheap electricity and very good infrastructure to charge EVs (we are an energy exporter).

Tesla may have had an initial leg up but car companies have caught up fast.

EV is here to stay and will continue. Maybe not in the US for a while but the US is large enough to keep an ICE market at home.
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
13.
 
Re: All Access
Apr 3, 2024, 11:32
13.
Re: All Access Apr 3, 2024, 11:32
Apr 3, 2024, 11:32
 
Prez wrote on Apr 3, 2024, 10:45:
.

To add one more observation, when Beamer declared that EV's are happening (paraphrasing) I took it to mean that the change will eventually be a legal mandate rather than a shifting of personal preferences over time.

Yup. And not just ours. China and Europe. Car manufacturers won't keep investing in multiple ICE platforms just for the US.

Burrito and I have had this discussion before. The majority of pickup truck users don't use the towing capacity at all. Like, the vast majority. Over 90%. Some do. Work trucks aren't going away. Ford isn't going to drop the ICE F150 when the EV version can't do what the ICE one can. There's still work needs. And those versions will still be sold to consumers with similar needs or desires.

But, at some point, it's hard to imagine that the EV capabilities won't catch up or surpass. Maybe it's 2035. Maybe it's 2050. But it's coming.

The electronic waste, issue, though is a different concern that won't go away without government intervention that I don't see coming.


12.
 
Re: All Access
Apr 3, 2024, 10:45
Prez
 
12.
Re: All Access Apr 3, 2024, 10:45
Apr 3, 2024, 10:45
 Prez
 
Really? That is very surprising. I suppose that "they want you to think so" part is working 100% on me because I have continued under the assumption for a long time now that they are, without question, market leaders. I appreciate you taking the time to correct me. I don't care about the business aspect (one market leader is as good/bad as the next), but I care about being correct, which includes correcting my erroneous beliefs. So again, thanks.

To add one more observation, when Beamer declared that EV's are happening (paraphrasing) I took it to mean that the change will eventually be a legal mandate rather than a shifting of personal preferences over time. I have no opinion on that, but I thought it was a different perspective than the one implied by the 2023 lists you posted based solely on consumer preference, so I thought I would at least toss it into the ring.

This comment was edited on Apr 3, 2024, 10:57.
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
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11.
 
Re: All Access
Apr 3, 2024, 10:38
11.
Re: All Access Apr 3, 2024, 10:38
Apr 3, 2024, 10:38
 
Prez wrote on Apr 3, 2024, 08:06:
...yet Apple is clearly the market leader...

Except that they're not. They certainly want you to think so, and spend a significant amount on marketing to project that they are, but they're not.

Apple controls ~28.5% of the total market share globally. Android overwhelmingly dominates with ~70.8%. The remaining percentage is split among Windows (LOL) and other niche phone OSes. Source.

/---\

As for EVs, EVholics like to scream that the electrification of vehicles is inevitable and it's just not. They'll use intentionally misleading or nebulous talking points to "prove" that it is, with phrases like "EV registrations are up X% since this time last year" or talking points equivalent to that. However, the numbers don't really back up their claims of inevitability. I did a bit of a deep dive on this elsewhere a week ago and this is what I found out. Let's start with the undisputed king of vehicle sales, the Ford F-150. In the US, no other model outsells the F-150. You have sites like Electrek screaming "FORD SOLD 113% MORE LIGHTNINGS! GREATEST SALES RECORDS EVAR!" Yet you dig in to the numbers and Ford sold....4,393 units for that month. Counter to that, Ford sold 35,526 ICE F-150s in the same time period. So, a little less than 10 times the amount of EV trucks. Those are real units sold, not deliberately nebulous percentages. Trucks and SUVs are huge sellers in the US because that is what America wants. What people "ought" to buy is irrelevant in the face of actual sales. I see a lot of EVholics using hopeful prognostication phrases as if they are actual facts that almost always begin with "there will be" or "they are going to". But those are not facts in evidence. Those are hopeful wishes.

If we look at the top 10 selling vehicles in the US for 2023, we see exactly one EV*. The Tesla Model Y. The other 9 are all ICE vehicles. Here they are if you are curious:

1. Ford F-150 (750,789 units sold)
2. Chevy Silverado (543,319 units sold)
3. RAM 1500 (444,926 units sold)
4. Toyota RAV4 (434,943 units sold)
5. Tesla Model Y (385,900 units sold - estimated since Tesla is vague on its sales numbers, even on earnings calls)
6. Honda CR-V (361,457 units sold)
7. GMC Sierra (295,737 units sold)
8. Toyota Camry (290,649 units sold)
9. Nissan Rogue (271,458 units sold)
10. Jeep Grand Cherokee (244,595 units sold)

Of that list, only one is an EV and only one is a car. The other 8 are trucks and SUVs and 9 of them are ICE vehicles. America has spoken with its wallet and it has overwhelmingly still come out in favor of ICE vehicles. We can argue about it, but those are the real numbers from 2023.

As for myself, I do not see myself buying an EV truck for a long, long time to come. The capabilities aren't there to match what my current ICE trucks can do, the high cost of replacement batteries that are non-standardized puts me off (assuming, of course, I can even get that battery in a decade or more after the purchase of the truck), and the uncertainty of power availability in the future puts me off. I would consider an electric gator type of vehicle provided the batteries were swappable in a standard U1 size (or similar), didn't cost an arm and a leg to replace, and that I could recharge them with the ease of how I currently recharge some of my cordless tools.

*Source

Side note: Beamer, I am not calling you an EVholic or calling you out in particular, you just used a word I see far too often from actual EVholics who can't shut up about EVs.
"Just take a look around you, what do you see? Pain, suffering, and misery." -Black Sabbath, Killing Yourself to Live.

“Man was born free, and he is everywhere in chains” -Jean-Jacques Rousseau
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10.
 
Re: All Access
Apr 3, 2024, 08:06
Prez
 
10.
Re: All Access Apr 3, 2024, 08:06
Apr 3, 2024, 08:06
 Prez
 
When you rephrase it more as a brand loyalty or brand exclusion concept I have a much easier time believing it. Overall I wouldn't think the singular factor of Musk owning something as being enough of a factor to move the needle. But the overall effect, that it is in the news more because he just can't help opening his mouth, and the news is only too happy to print every controversial thing he does or says, the general zeitgeist would lessen the cool factor over time while maintaining a smaller but steadfastly loyal group who will always buy nothing but, seemingly solely out of spite. "I bought an Android because I absolutely despise Apple" is definitely something I have heard for example, yet Apple is clearly the market leader. It's almost exactly the same thing with Steam versus EGS. It's not ideally what would drive competition, but that seems to be how basic human nature dictates that it must work. I'm certainly not immune to it completely; I cannot stand Tim Sweeney. But if EGS had been first instead of Steam it's almost assured that I would be an EGS guy anyway. I'm not smarter than your average consumer, I am just brainless in a different way.
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
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9.
 
Re: All Access
Apr 3, 2024, 07:27
9.
Re: All Access Apr 3, 2024, 07:27
Apr 3, 2024, 07:27
 
Prez wrote on Apr 3, 2024, 06:47:
I'm one of those weirdos who doesn't care who owns a thing or how stupid the shit that comes out of their mouths is; I buy what is best. I'm guessing that, while people like me might not be common, the number of people who even care to learn that Musk has anything to do with Tesla whatsoever or even who the hell he even is is probably a lot smaller than you think. It seems impossible but I keep running into people who have no idea who Elon Musk is. I definitely feel that your first two points are valid though.

You're much more common, but there's a limit to everyone.
Beyond that, there's always cool factor. Cars are a very personal thing, and the difference between the objective best and a very good is often pretty close, and image comes heavily into play. People will buy a better looking car with worse performance and worse fuel economy than a lesser looking car because they like it. Or, they'll refuse to buy a Chevy because they're a Ford guy, or they'll refuse to buy a Honda because their dad had one in the 80s that they didn't like. So if the overall opinion of a company is negative, people will be less likely to buy it. Much like how Apple managed to be cool and Microsoft (or Android) less cool, so a very significant amount of people will solely buy Apple.

But also, the first two reasons in my post, haha.
8.
 
Re: All Access
Apr 3, 2024, 06:47
Prez
 
8.
Re: All Access Apr 3, 2024, 06:47
Apr 3, 2024, 06:47
 Prez
 
I'm one of those weirdos who doesn't care who owns a thing or how stupid the shit that comes out of their mouths is; I buy what is best. I'm guessing that, while people like me might not be common, the number of people who even care to learn that Musk has anything to do with Tesla whatsoever or even who the hell he even is is probably a lot smaller than you think. It seems impossible but I keep running into people who have no idea who Elon Musk is. I definitely feel that your first two points are valid though.
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
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7.
 
Re: All Access
Apr 3, 2024, 06:36
7.
Re: All Access Apr 3, 2024, 06:36
Apr 3, 2024, 06:36
 
Prez wrote on Apr 3, 2024, 06:11:
Is Tesla tanking because of Musk being a high profile, intensely unlikeable outspoken leader, or is it because the bloom has come off the electric car rose somewhat? Inquiring minds want to know. Okay, not really, but I do ponder the question occasionally, right after I get done contemplating my navel.

The hype for the electric car may have slowed in the US, but the bloom isn't really off. We're going there, and there's no real stopping it.

The issue is probably threefold:

1) Other car companies have done a lot of catching up to Tesla in the EV space, and those companies are actually well built for building cars at scale. Tesla is viewed more as a tech company, in some ways rightfully, but it's less skilled at building actual cars, and we're hitting an inflection point where being better at building cars is becoming more important than being better at tech

2) Some of the Tesla decisions are starting to piss people off. Tesla's demand to reinvent everything and push as much to the touchscreen is making many buyers wonder what was wrong with what worked, and whether Tesla's improvements are improvements are just making things a bit more difficult

3) Musk. Musk's posting has gone so far right that even moderate conservatives find him embarrassing. Tesla investors are seeing his erratic behavior as detrimental, and potential Tesla buyers are starting to call the cars the automotive equivalent of a red hat. A brand once edgy and cool is starting to be seen as teenage edgelordy and as cool as a 50 year old man in an Ed Hardy shirt drinking a $30 Captain and Coke at a South Beach bar.
6.
 
Re: All Access
Apr 3, 2024, 06:11
Prez
 
6.
Re: All Access Apr 3, 2024, 06:11
Apr 3, 2024, 06:11
 Prez
 
Is Tesla tanking because of Musk being a high profile, intensely unlikeable outspoken leader, or is it because the bloom has come off the electric car rose somewhat? Inquiring minds want to know. Okay, not really, but I do ponder the question occasionally, right after I get done contemplating my navel.
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
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5.
 
Re: All Access
Apr 3, 2024, 05:17
Prez
 
5.
Re: All Access Apr 3, 2024, 05:17
Apr 3, 2024, 05:17
 Prez
 
That's great but that would mean my controller is broken all of the time.
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
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4.
 
Re: All Access
Apr 3, 2024, 00:46
4.
Re: All Access Apr 3, 2024, 00:46
Apr 3, 2024, 00:46
 
RedEye9 wrote on Apr 3, 2024, 00:03:
NKD wrote on Apr 2, 2024, 21:27:
You mean I don't need to let a sociopathic billionaire put a killswitch in my brain?
He's gotta do something because his cars ain't selling.
Tesla sales plunge far more than expected
Tesla stock tumbled almost 5% after big Q1 delivery miss. Q1 deliveries were below Q4's total and, most surprisingly, fell compared to a year ago.

Who wants to buy poorly assembled junk from a ketamine addicted racist fascist?

<Cue weird nerds coming out of the woodwork to defend their favorite White Power Pride Boy>
"Just take a look around you, what do you see? Pain, suffering, and misery." -Black Sabbath, Killing Yourself to Live.

“Man was born free, and he is everywhere in chains” -Jean-Jacques Rousseau
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3.
 
Re: All Access
Apr 3, 2024, 00:03
3.
Re: All Access Apr 3, 2024, 00:03
Apr 3, 2024, 00:03
 
NKD wrote on Apr 2, 2024, 21:27:
You mean I don't need to let a sociopathic billionaire put a killswitch in my brain?
He's gotta do something because his cars ain't selling.
Tesla sales plunge far more than expected
Tesla stock tumbled almost 5% after big Q1 delivery miss. Q1 deliveries were below Q4's total and, most surprisingly, fell compared to a year ago.
"I expect death to be nothingness and by removing from me all possible fears of death, I am thankful to atheism." Isaac Asimov
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2.
 
Re: All Access
Apr 2, 2024, 23:58
2.
Re: All Access Apr 2, 2024, 23:58
Apr 2, 2024, 23:58
 
Did none of these people ever watch Brainstorm or Brainscan???
"Just take a look around you, what do you see? Pain, suffering, and misery." -Black Sabbath, Killing Yourself to Live.

“Man was born free, and he is everywhere in chains” -Jean-Jacques Rousseau
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1.
 
Re: All Access
Apr 2, 2024, 21:27
NKD
1.
Re: All Access Apr 2, 2024, 21:27
Apr 2, 2024, 21:27
NKD
 
You mean I don't need to let a sociopathic billionaire put a killswitch in my brain?
Do you have a single fact to back that up?
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