Go away.

COME ON! Everybody get naked! Come on! It's going to be great!

Well why not! This party's just GETIING STARTED!

Hmm, are there any females around? I'd hate to get that kind of thing started in an all-male place.

The official shipping date (No need for an unofficial one) is July 23rd [Hahahaha, juvenile joke, twenty-turd!]

The date it's supposed to be in stores is July the 26th [Can't thinkof immature humor for this one] in North America.

You guys are nuts. I can't even bear to read the entire conversation. I'll cut the fat and ask: Does anyone know an (un)official ship date? I want to tell all my friends so I might be the cool kid on the block.

Yes, Jar-Jar no like Romero!

Um... k.

I am going to keep this thread alive by talking to myself, okay?

I'd hate to see that John Romero thing get on top.

I wouldn't call that "imaginary copy" vaporware.

You could still play it (in your mind)!

I am playing Max Payne right now! (In my mind)

Vaaaaaaapoooorwaaaaare

Ooops!

I guess nobody will be getting that imaginary copy after all.

Shame on you!

Oh, and I'll attempt to post a message on July 20 at 20:20.

If only I could make it, goddammit!

Better yet, first to post on July 20 at 20:20 will win an imaginary copy of Max Payne.

Already done on my part. I'm satisfied.
Since he answered in part on topic and with a sensible point and arguments [The Max Payne part], I think we're all done.

Aren't we, 216.86?

My last post answered the non-Payne part of his post, and I don't think he had any problem with it, so we are done.

If he wants to pursue this about "the general state of the gaming industry" I'll do so, but we'll take it outside, as I have no intention of annoying bystanders anymore.

I guess that duel has made everyone uneasy and edgy, it would be a good time to call it quits.

If anyone wants to resume this with Max Payne related stuff, please do so.

Dear anon@24.203 & anon@216.86,

Call a truce, please. Thank you.

BeastOfBurden

**"You have been doing something equally inappropriate."**
Am I to assume that what I said was true? If it is, then you recognized your fault and there is no point in going on aside from steering this topic back to where it is supposed to be.

Luckily, you salvaged your last post by saying something about Max Payne.
**"Let me make my position clear, once and for all.

I think Max Payne will be a good, fun game. I think Max Payne will be relatively bug free. I don't know that Max Payne will be good or bug free because I have never played it, seen it played, or know anyone that has played it. Thus I won't buy Max Payne until I read some reviews of the game. If Max Payne is as great as people are claiming, that will bear out in the reviews and I will buy it."**

If you say that the previous quote is out of context, then your idea of "quoting" and "context" are very wrong.
That is the point I have been trying to make. For the review part I answered you TWO times already.

"Yet in your replies you call me a Max Payne hater". If you really think what you just said, then you are completely delusional and are just making my last post more true. I don't see your name anywhere in that post. Do you? I don't even know your name. Not even your nickname. There's not even "anon@216.86". I know how you will answer this. Do something thoughtful: spare me your response to this, as I know what it will be and that kind of comment is as pointless as the fact that it doesn't resolve anything.

**"Max Payne is crappy because it is a 3rd person shooter or it didn't have multiplayer or something. "**
I know I never talked about "3rd person shooter", so it probably was multiplayer. That was in answer to SOMEONE ELSE. Get it? I was NOT talking to you.

**"You are the one taking the giant leap of logic by writing responses to claims that were never made in this forum."** I seriously think you should look at what you say before posting atrocities like that one.

"You have done all these things, to myself and other posters." First off I have assumed that what everyone had posted was in direct relation with the subject, Max Payne. And I don't feel that anyone else but you has felt threatened by any of my posts. Go ahead. Ask, who was offended by my posts.

I won't dignify the rest of your comments with a response, as you have done exactly what I have been talking about, and are continuing in that same direction with the first part of your post.

I grow weary of this squabble, as you simply won't stop, are not going anywhere, and are just saying these things to rattle cages and try to offend me. Mission failed. I told you already, I am not getting dragged into this any more than I am, and you managed to drag me up to my neck in this mess.

If I am replying, I am not attacking back, simply trying to fend you off. You are not talking about Max Payne, are not trying to repair anything and only attemp to attack me further.

You want to to talk about the general state of the gaming industry, find some place else to do it. Here we talk about Max Payne. Max Payne in its gold state more precisely.

I realize I may have had something to do with this by talking about the large publishers but it's too late to turn back now, and I am sorry for saying these [true] things and disrupting everyone's thread and, most of all cause you to start all this commotion.

The only way this can be ended is by deleting about a dozen posts back, as at this point I do not think the damage you have done can be repaired any other way.

You have been doing something equally inappropriate. I make statements relating to the state of PC gaming in general. You take those statements, and construe these statements as negative comments about Max Payne. I respond saying no, I am not saying this about Max Payne, I am saying this about PC games in general. Yet in your replies you call me a Max Payne hater and continue to accuse me of trying to bash 3DRealms, which I am not trying to do. You said I stated Max Payne is crappy because it is a 3rd person shooter or it didn't have multiplayer or something. I never did.

I don't appreciate having my statements being misconstrued. I don't like it when people say I am taking a position I am not. You have done all these things, to myself and other posters. No one in this whole discussion has said "Max Payne is buggy." No one in this whole discussion has said "3DRealms, Remedy, and GODgames can't make a fun game." Yet you have accused myself and others of saying this when all anybody has done has excersized a little (IMO healthy) skepticism because they have been burned by bad PC games before, and they want to be careful. Not because of anything they may have heard about Max Payne, 3DRealms, or whoever. Due of your false accusations, you, sir, are completely out of line. You are the one taking the giant leap of logic by writing responses to claims that were never made in this forum. You did so to vilify anybody who dared make a statement short of proclaiming the pure perfection of Max Payne. I can't find one negative comment in this thread about the game specifically, except for the guy who said it wasn't really his type of game.

Let me make my position clear, once and for all.

I think Max Payne will be a good, fun game. I think Max Payne will be relatively bug free. I don't know that Max Payne will be good or bug free because I have never played it, seen it played, or know anyone that has played it. Thus I won't buy Max Payne until I read some reviews of the game. If Max Payne is as great as people are claiming, that will bear out in the reviews and I will buy it.

I can't make my position any more clear than that.

I think I have tolerated this long enough now.

I see what you are trying to do, and I am not very pleased by it.

Each time I have answered you, you have tried steering the discussion in another direction, the direction you wanted.
Before you accuse me of relating everything you say to Max Payne, maybe you should read the subject, perhaps this will refresh your memory.
Max Payne.

Steering this whole thread in an inappropriate direction, such as what you have been trying to do, is nothing I will take part of. Or reducing it to vulgarity and personal insults, which you so eloquently managed to put forward.

Somehow you remind me of these funny americans I met when I crossed the border to eat in a certain fast food restaurant. Believing that a restaurant from such a known chain would certainly give me better rates for my money, I paid with the currency of my country. Huge mistake, for you see, they believe that if one of my dollars was worth 60% of theirs, theirs would be worth 140% of mine. Luckily, mathematics have always been very clear for me, and I quickly saw the flawed logic.

You have been trying to do the very same thing. Using flawed logic to build upon flawed logic until the whole is an unintelligible mess.

Now unless you fall back to the subject at hand and continue to exchange in a civilized manner, I wanted to inform you that you are completely out of line.

Attempting to find personal insults in a message clear of them to fuel your savage, vicious and senseless attacks in a simple desire of victory is nothing to be proud of.

I will discontinue this unless you stand back to a reasonable position, take a deep breath, realize that we are talking about Max Payne, forget what you said and start over in the right subject.

Apparently you aren't reading what I wrote, or you're selectively reading everything I write as a dig on 3DRealms et al in general. It's impossible to talk to someone like that. I've noticed it's becoming more common in public discourse to discredit someone by taking a statement and reading something into it that isn't there.
Example: Person A: "I don't like rap music."
Person B: "Person A doesn't like rap music! That must be because he doesn't like black people! Racist!"
Thus, I am "pre"futing the accusations you will make in parentheses.

The PR mess I am referring to is the general view among people that PC games are released in a buggy condition. This statement wasn't specific to 3DRealms. This statement didn't even imply 3DRealms contributed to this view. You're taking it as such. I can't help you there. (no, this does not mean I'm saying 3DRealms is a company that releases buggy games, or that I'm saying 3DRealms is the only company that releases buggy games, or that Max Payne will be buggy, or any other ridiculous fucking misconstruance of the statement you will make)

I have had plenty of problems returning games, because most places think you've burned a copy the moment you leave the store. Or at least copied the CD Key. And not everyone lives in a place where they have dozens of stores to choose where they can buy their games, so they don't have that "shop around" option.

I NEVER said Max Payne isn't my style of game, nor did I EVER say that if it wasn't my style of game, that makes it a bad game. I personally don't care for a hardcore flight sim, but I can appreciate why people like them. But you imply that I said "Max Payne is a 3rd person shooter and it sucks," which I never did.

A lot of people bought Quake 2 for multiplayer (I was one of the early adopters). Multiplayer wasn't too great right out of the box. I don't know the business dynamics between Activision and id, but I don't think Carmack & co. just greased up and bent over for them. Publishers only bitchslap developers who live on the brink of bankruptcy, not a solid industry player like id. It's not like they'd have problems finding another publisher for the most anticipated game of the day if push really came to shove. Hell, Carmack told MICROSOFT where to go with Direct3D vs OpenGL a few years back, and the entire Windows software industry is terrified of them.

The reason I want to see independent reviews is that EVERY developer says their game is stable when they release it. I ask you to find me ONE CASE where ANY DEVELOPER said, "Yes, we released this game in a buggy unplayable state. Expect patches soon." One of these days, your favorite developer X is going to disappoint you. (in your next post, will you read X as Scott Miller? or will X be read as Broussard?) There were lots of Molyneux fans who preordered B&W based on the quality of his previous games and were disappointed. Of course, he said his game was in a good state. Just like Romero fans got burned with Daikatana. And Garriott fans got burned with Ultima IX. Even the BEST developers can lay a turd every once in a while. (no, this does not mean I'm saying Max Payne is a turd. How can I know? I've never played the game. But that won't stop you from saying I said so. Whatever)

The reviews will come out, and my guess from what I hear and read and 3DRealm's general reputation is that Max Payne will be as stable and as fun as Broussard et al are saying. But I want to know for sure before $50. (no, this does not mean I'm saying Max Payne is a buggy, not fun game, so spare me the unfounded accusation).

M'kay. (No, M'kay does not mean I think Max Payne will be the worst game of 2001. But that probably won't stop you from taking statements out of context)

You aren't making this any easy, but I guess I will have to go through that again.

First off, criticizing the stability or the POSSIBLE stability of the game IS criticizing Remedy, 3DRealms and G.O.D. all at once, whether or not that is your intention.

There has been no PR mess with Max Payne. The only PR stuff I saw came directly from Petri Järvilehto, Peter Hajba, Joe Siegler, George Broussard and Scott Miller. That's it. G.O.D. has clearly stayed out of it and let 3DRealms manage the whole thing. The whole MEDIA BLACKOUT thing. So unless you joined the Max Payne crowd a month ago, you would have known there is no PR mess.

Now now, wait a minute. Most places DON'T take refunds? It is your job to find a retailer that DOES. Personally I have never had any problem returning a game (or any other program) so you might be exaggerating, and by a lot.

I thought I already made the next two points clear, but here I go again, for your reading pleasure.

Games are a highly suggestive business. So is music. So are movies. So is whether you like ketchup and mustard on your hot dog. So is if you find that pizza tastes better than ketchup on doritos. Waiting for a review is your choice: no one will voluntarily blind you to keep you from reading a review. If you know of a reviewer that has similar tastes than yours, then by all means go ahead and read the review. Couneseling is an important part of gaming, since as I said, it isn't all objective. I have said this before, right? A game can be a GOOD GAME without being YOUR KIND OF GAME (i.e. I wouldn't touch magic, fairies and spell casting games with a ten foot pole, even if they are absolutely brillant, well executed and have great stories)

How much proof do you need that there are no show-stoppers? You disbelieve anything and everything Scott Miller, George Broussard, Petri... you get the idea, have said! And they said THERE ARE NO SHOW-STOPPERS! It IS the most STABLE GAME THEY HAVE EVER DEALT WITH!
Remedy is located next to MadOnion. You think they haven't seen your hardware before? Seriously? Remedy (and it has been said) has directly benefited from its close location to MadOnion. If the makers of the most widely used benchmark and Remedy/3DRealms/G.O.D. cannot be trusted when they talk about a game THEY MADE, then I wonder who you can trust. An unbiased source, is that right. Your reviewer. That's fine, read what he says, I'll take the developer's and publisher's word for it.

Finally, Quake 2 wasn't made by Remedy or 3DRealms but by an equally respectable developer. Who was it published by? ACTIVISION. An elite team of hardcore bureaucrats. No developer, and I do mean NO developer gives to activision a "when it's done" release date.

Aside from that, I bought the very first copy of Quake 2 I could find (version 3.05 if I remember correctly). It was rock solid, as I remember it. Most of the patches for Quake 2 happened to be multiplayer oriented anyway.

There. M'kay?

anon@24.203,
No one criticized 3DRealms, Remedy, or GOD games. Nobody claimed Max Payne was buggy. I especially appreciate the fact that someone from Remedy came down to vouch for the game's stability. The unfortunate fact is 3DRealms has to deal with the PR mess other publishers have made for them. I feel sorry for the poor fools who spent their hard earned money on games like AO, WWIIOL, BC3K, etc. without doing a little research. I'm sure the people at their respective companies (with the notable exception of Derek Smart) said publically that their games were ready to go. Even worse are people who buy broken console games who have no hope for a patch. There's only one console game I ever heard of that got recalled for bugs, and that's Gran Turismo.

Buyers expected the features promised on the box and they get shafted, a lot more so than people who buy other types of products. And it's a real pain in the ass to take a game back - most places won't take refunds. Would anyone with a good conscience really advocate putting down $50 for something without seeing an independent review of the quality of the product?

Also, how do I know there isn't some show stopping bug with hardware that I own that they didn't test? There's a lot of different hardware out there, and I imagine their compatibility testing facilities are limited. I'd hate to think that I buy a game and find out later it's not compatible with my video card. The only way they can discover it is to put the game into wide release, and I wouldn't buy anything unless there is a compatibility patch already available.

Even Quake 2, made by one of the most respected companies out there, had some problems when it shipped. Didn't they coin the phrase, "when it's done?"

At last!
Am I glad to see some support. I have been yelling this ringing a bell on rooftops for a while now.

Yes those large publishers ARE the problem. Not the programmers, not the developpers, the publishers. I am glad this thread exposed that [now to be known as] fact.

Now let's see EA, Sierra and Fox fanboys ally with Max Payne and 3DRealms haters go for the kamikaze assaults. We won't get flames, we'll get maniacs with C4 strapped and nampalm on their back trying to jump us. Be prepared.