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32.
 
Re: Quoteworthy
Nov 29, 2023, 10:34
32.
Re: Quoteworthy Nov 29, 2023, 10:34
Nov 29, 2023, 10:34
 
everything has pros and cons.. news at 11

also be careful what you read? always spend time before buying something (unless you have "f***" you money like Joe Rogan).

Last many people are FOMO. You don't have to play the game at launch, you definitely don't have to play game at pre-launch state.
“I am not a Mac user unless under duress.” - John Carmack
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31.
 
Re: Quoteworthy
Nov 29, 2023, 09:45
Prez
 
31.
Re: Quoteworthy Nov 29, 2023, 09:45
Nov 29, 2023, 09:45
 Prez
 
It should be almost exclusively used by small developers, but I did agree that a larger developer like Larian used it pretty well for BG3.
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
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30.
 
Re: Quoteworthy
Nov 29, 2023, 08:42
30.
Re: Quoteworthy Nov 29, 2023, 08:42
Nov 29, 2023, 08:42
 
Prez wrote on Nov 29, 2023, 08:34:
From a developer's perspective (the actual good ones, not the scammers), the obvious benefit is having early access funds continue to help fund the ongoing development of your game. That's not a benefit to the consumer in any way, except it might help a game they love come to fruition that might not have otherwise. I used to use Early Access for this purpose, but just like with Kickstarter I was made very aware that I was more likely than not throwing good money away for nothing. Overall, Early Access is just not a good deal for the end user, even if it helps the occasional decent developer to bring their project to life.


This really is the reason it was invented - to provide access to capital for small devs that otherwise couldn't afford the lengthy dev cycle, at least without going to a publisher or otherwise giving up some stake or creative control, while also giving immediate feedback on decisions and offering a form of playtesting to devs too small to access it otherwise.

That, of course, isn't how it's always used.

For me, personally, I see no real value as a consumer. I don't play most games multiple times, so I'd rather play it when it's feature complete than play something that's 40%-70% there.
29.
 
Re: Quoteworthy
Nov 29, 2023, 08:34
Prez
 
29.
Re: Quoteworthy Nov 29, 2023, 08:34
Nov 29, 2023, 08:34
 Prez
 
From a developer's perspective (the actual good ones, not the scammers), the obvious benefit is having early access funds continue to help fund the ongoing development of your game. That's not a benefit to the consumer in any way, except it might help a game they love come to fruition that might not have otherwise. I used to use Early Access for this purpose, but just like with Kickstarter I was made very aware that I was more likely than not throwing good money away for nothing. Overall, Early Access is just not a good deal for the end user, even if it helps the occasional decent developer to bring their project to life.
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
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28.
 
Re: Quoteworthy
Nov 29, 2023, 06:42
28.
Re: Quoteworthy Nov 29, 2023, 06:42
Nov 29, 2023, 06:42
 
If you game only has one player online as measured by SteamDB, then you failed.

The great majority of early access titles I have bought into had extremely little improvement from the time they started early access and when they eventually went gold, so low SteamDB numbers is usually a pretty good gage of game quality.

What these guys are complaining about is that without Early Access, they hope to sell enough copies on release (100% based on hype) to recoupe expenses before reality sets in and early adopters drop it for the turkey it is. Early Access tend to work against this. If you release crap in early access, it is going to get flagged as crap.
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride! - HT
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27.
 
Re: Quoteworthy
Nov 29, 2023, 02:57
27.
Re: Quoteworthy Nov 29, 2023, 02:57
Nov 29, 2023, 02:57
 
RedEye9 wrote on Nov 28, 2023, 12:39:
a small minority of extremely vocal gamers (...) has never bothered to read what Early Access means.
It's precisely because gamers think they're getting a playable game that they buy EA. Without it, no one would buy and it would be a failure.

The fault lies with the developers, who play on gamers' expectations and don't hesitate to make them believe that the EA is equivalent to the game's release.

I quote from Chet Faliszek's LinkedIn bio:

Chet Faliszek
2nd degree connection2nd
Chief Executive Officer at Stray Bombay Company a Seattle Based developer working on Co-op games. - The Anacrusis is out - play it!

"The Anacrusis is out - play it!" <= See?

That said, having tried his game, it's pretty mediocre, and if he screws up, it's probably not because of the way the players are counted.
26.
 
Re: Quoteworthy
Nov 28, 2023, 23:35
26.
Re: Quoteworthy Nov 28, 2023, 23:35
Nov 28, 2023, 23:35
 
Burrito of Peace wrote on Nov 28, 2023, 16:58:
WannaLogAlready wrote on Nov 28, 2023, 16:20:
Bought tons of early access, very satisfied with the results.

I know some will be duds, so what, choose them by types I definitely like to enjoy for an hour or more, and surprised and gratified if I get more.

To be fair though, until recently, you were purchasing those games for literal pennies on the US dollar. If you had to pay full USD pricing, I think you would feel a little different than "so what".
Sir, I'll have you know that since the change from peso to USD I've already bought 2 (two) games for a total of less than 2 dollars, loved them though

My country also upped taxes to 150% of dollar sales Shame

This comment was edited on Nov 28, 2023, 23:45.
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25.
 
Re: Quoteworthy
Nov 28, 2023, 22:37
25.
Re: Quoteworthy Nov 28, 2023, 22:37
Nov 28, 2023, 22:37
 
I've notice that some people seem to specifically pick out early access games just so they can throw hysterical whiny crying fits about them. Pretty much 24/7.

I think it says more about these types of people than it does about the games.
24.
 
Re: Quoteworthy
Nov 28, 2023, 22:29
24.
Re: Quoteworthy Nov 28, 2023, 22:29
Nov 28, 2023, 22:29
 
I've bought quite a few early access games and I have been quite happy with the vast majority of them.
23.
 
Re: Quoteworthy
Nov 28, 2023, 21:33
Prez
 
23.
Re: Quoteworthy Nov 28, 2023, 21:33
Nov 28, 2023, 21:33
 Prez
 
I understand that Early Access has a purpose even if I don't like it. I think reviews are absolutely valid if they are charging money, but I think current reviews should be erased when a new iteration of the game comes out. If you are frequently updating your early access game as you absolutely should be, you should never have a negative review on your game up for very long.
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
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22.
 
Re: Quoteworthy
Nov 28, 2023, 19:43
22.
Re: Quoteworthy Nov 28, 2023, 19:43
Nov 28, 2023, 19:43
 
PHJF wrote on Nov 28, 2023, 17:29:
Reviews are not for feedback. Reviews are there to influence potential buyers. If you are asking money for your game, your game should have reviews. Steam isn't a kickstarter.
Is it actually a review if the product is incomplete?
If Russia stops fighting, the war ends. If Ukraine stops fighting, Ukraine ends. Slava Ukraini!
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21.
 
Re: Quoteworthy
Nov 28, 2023, 17:29
PHJF
 
21.
Re: Quoteworthy Nov 28, 2023, 17:29
Nov 28, 2023, 17:29
 PHJF
 
Reviews are not for feedback. Reviews are there to influence potential buyers. If you are asking money for your game, your game should have reviews. Steam isn't a kickstarter.
Steam + PSN: PHJF
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20.
 
Re: Quoteworthy
Nov 28, 2023, 17:16
20.
Re: Quoteworthy Nov 28, 2023, 17:16
Nov 28, 2023, 17:16
 
Steele Johnson wrote on Nov 28, 2023, 16:22:
You kind of wonder why reviews are even enabled for incomplete games. But I suppose since the devs are asking for money, there's not much choice. I guess that's the risk the developer has to take if they're looking for money from gamers rather than investors. I've supported several Early Access games in the past, with some finishing and doing well while others seem to run off with the money and abandon the game. Now I just put EA games on my wishlist and wait. If it seems they're taking too long, I delete after a while
Agree, it shouldn't be a "review." It should be a "Feedback comment" or something with no score, thumbs up, or whatever.
If Russia stops fighting, the war ends. If Ukraine stops fighting, Ukraine ends. Slava Ukraini!
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19.
 
Re: Quoteworthy
Nov 28, 2023, 17:15
19.
Re: Quoteworthy Nov 28, 2023, 17:15
Nov 28, 2023, 17:15
 
Cutedge wrote on Nov 28, 2023, 15:50:
I don't really fully understand Chet's complaints here. Yes, it's true that people will weaponize your player counts and post "dead gaem" on every steam update but I mean that's everything. You just have to grow some thicker skin. As one of my community managers used to say, devs shouldn't read the forums.

The thing about the counts being inaccurate is where I'm really confused. I do unpaid dev on a game I worked on a decade and a half ago because it was just sitting there humming away online and I know the current owners (who basically work elsewhere in the industry now). It's essentially a dead game outside of a hardcore fanbase. It has a concurrency that hasn't broken 100 in 9 years. And since I started working on it, I've been watching the numbers and they seem pretty accurate. The idea that these stats don't update unless you have tens of thousands of concurrent users is patently untrue. Then again, if the concurrency was above 10,000 their game would be in the top 100 in steam. Seems like he's mixing up DAU with CCU.
My thought is that he was saying he has 10,000 sales (including consoles) so a CCU of 1 was "inconceivable!". But I was confused about his complaint too.
If Russia stops fighting, the war ends. If Ukraine stops fighting, Ukraine ends. Slava Ukraini!
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18.
 
Re: Quoteworthy
Nov 28, 2023, 17:12
18.
Re: Quoteworthy Nov 28, 2023, 17:12
Nov 28, 2023, 17:12
 
Burrito of Peace wrote on Nov 28, 2023, 15:17:
I think it is a two sided problem. Are there entitled, whiny consumers? Oh Hell yes. On the flip side, I've also seen devs use EA as their own personal piggy bank with zero intention of ever releasing a 1.0 build. Steam does nothing to reign the latter in, using the fig leaf of "Well it's Early Access so fuck off, we already have your money." There seems to be no or little accountability from the devs to Valve/Steam nor from Valve/Steam to users. Hell, Valve/Steam happily hosts blatant asset flip games and does perfunctory "clean ups" to give the appearance of actually combating the problem.

Prez mentioned Starforge which is a classic example of the personal piggybank problem. Hatch Code is still behaving in the same manner to this day. However, some EA titles actually use EA for its intended purpose. KSP comes to mind as does The Last Starship. Computer Tycoon, too. That's a one man shop and he is doing his best. Providing reasonably timely updates and listening to player feedback.

If EA were meaningful, there would be no money exchanged at all (to get rid of the financial aspect) and it would be solely about player feedback on what works and does not instead of as a financing means because you don't have the capital to start and finish the product. Some games might not get made but c'est la vie. It would certainly help cut down on the "risks for thee, rewards for me" problems.
Make any game in EA refundable with no time limit. The two week window doesn't start until the actual release. That will force developers to shorten the EA window to something reasonable and release something limited, like BG3 releasing only the first chapter or whatever.
If Russia stops fighting, the war ends. If Ukraine stops fighting, Ukraine ends. Slava Ukraini!
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17.
 
Re: Quoteworthy
Nov 28, 2023, 16:58
17.
Re: Quoteworthy Nov 28, 2023, 16:58
Nov 28, 2023, 16:58
 
WannaLogAlready wrote on Nov 28, 2023, 16:20:
Bought tons of early access, very satisfied with the results.

I know some will be duds, so what, choose them by types I definitely like to enjoy for an hour or more, and surprised and gratified if I get more.

To be fair though, until recently, you were purchasing those games for literal pennies on the US dollar. If you had to pay full USD pricing, I think you would feel a little different than "so what".
"Just take a look around you, what do you see? Pain, suffering, and misery." -Black Sabbath, Killing Yourself to Live.

“Man was born free, and he is everywhere in chains” -Jean-Jacques Rousseau
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16.
 
Re: Quoteworthy
Nov 28, 2023, 16:22
16.
Re: Quoteworthy Nov 28, 2023, 16:22
Nov 28, 2023, 16:22
 
You kind of wonder why reviews are even enabled for incomplete games. But I suppose since the devs are asking for money, there's not much choice. I guess that's the risk the developer has to take if they're looking for money from gamers rather than investors. I've supported several Early Access games in the past, with some finishing and doing well while others seem to run off with the money and abandon the game. Now I just put EA games on my wishlist and wait. If it seems they're taking too long, I delete after a while
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15.
 
Re: Quoteworthy
Nov 28, 2023, 16:20
15.
Re: Quoteworthy Nov 28, 2023, 16:20
Nov 28, 2023, 16:20
 
Bought tons of early access, very satisfied with the results.

I know some will be duds, so what, choose them by types I definitely like to enjoy for an hour or more, and surprised and gratified if I get more.

Some fantastic games recently (Megasphere, played 40+ hrs, liked how it "ends" and will replay it in time even if it never is finished -used my C.E. table to allay some steep difficulty-).

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14.
 
Re: Quoteworthy
Nov 28, 2023, 15:50
14.
Re: Quoteworthy Nov 28, 2023, 15:50
Nov 28, 2023, 15:50
 
I don't really fully understand Chet's complaints here. Yes, it's true that people will weaponize your player counts and post "dead gaem" on every steam update but I mean that's everything. You just have to grow some thicker skin. As one of my community managers used to say, devs shouldn't read the forums.

The thing about the counts being inaccurate is where I'm really confused. I do unpaid dev on a game I worked on a decade and a half ago because it was just sitting there humming away online and I know the current owners (who basically work elsewhere in the industry now). It's essentially a dead game outside of a hardcore fanbase. It has a concurrency that hasn't broken 100 in 9 years. And since I started working on it, I've been watching the numbers and they seem pretty accurate. The idea that these stats don't update unless you have tens of thousands of concurrent users is patently untrue. Then again, if the concurrency was above 10,000 their game would be in the top 100 in steam. Seems like he's mixing up DAU with CCU.
13.
 
Re: Quoteworthy
Nov 28, 2023, 15:42
13.
Re: Quoteworthy Nov 28, 2023, 15:42
Nov 28, 2023, 15:42
 
You can't mention EA w/out mentioning Black Mesa, winner of the coveted "Vaporware Of The Year" award two years in a row (2009-10) before spending 5 years in early access (2015-20)
I gladly gave Crowbar Collective my hard earned money so they could continue working on the game after I saw the quality of the free 2012 mod.

I also understood that the game might never be finished and i was fine with that.
"I expect death to be nothingness and by removing from me all possible fears of death, I am thankful to atheism." Isaac Asimov
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32 Replies. 2 pages. Viewing page 1.
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