Morning Esports & Competitions

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23.
 
Re: Morning Esports & Competitions
Dec 1, 2023, 19:53
23.
Re: Morning Esports & Competitions Dec 1, 2023, 19:53
Dec 1, 2023, 19:53
 
Sepharo wrote on Nov 28, 2023, 14:35:
Razumen wrote on Nov 28, 2023, 01:29:
That's literally what the discussion is about...
Think about it... is Valve indie? Do they make Indie games?

Yes, they do, and the moment you argue they're not, is the moment you admit your own definition has no clear boundaries, because there is no clear delineation you can point at and say A is indie, but B isn't because X.

That's not how language works.
... but it is a common mistake that people make.

Yes it is, and it's exactly why we have definitions for words and terms.
22.
 
Re: Morning Esports & Competitions
Nov 29, 2023, 11:10
Prez
 
22.
Re: Morning Esports & Competitions Nov 29, 2023, 11:10
Nov 29, 2023, 11:10
 Prez
 
To bring this discussion back around to "Dave the Diver", it 100% feels like an indie game to me, way more than Half-Life or Baldur's Gate 3 do. So, should the definition just be "you'll know it when you play it"? It's the only one that completely satisfies me for whatever that's worth.
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21.
 
Re: Morning Esports & Competitions
Nov 28, 2023, 14:35
21.
Re: Morning Esports & Competitions Nov 28, 2023, 14:35
Nov 28, 2023, 14:35
 
Razumen wrote on Nov 28, 2023, 01:29:
Sepharo wrote on Nov 27, 2023, 21:56:
Razumen wrote on Nov 27, 2023, 21:20:
Cutter wrote on Nov 27, 2023, 20:55:
Razumen wrote on Nov 27, 2023, 19:47:
eRe4s3r wrote on Nov 27, 2023, 19:16:
It has to go by budget as you say, because if you define it as GPT does (or as matter of fact, a dictionary) then it goes by attachment to a larger entity and obviously that is pretty absurd if when you can put games like BG3 in that bracket too.

That's not absurd, because Larian was and still is an independent studio. Team size and budget are not the defining factors of what makes a studio indie, and being successful doesn't mean they're no longer indie either.

I'd disagree with that assessment. I think most people would agree that indie virtually always means small to no real budget to speak of. A few people in a garage or someone's basement making XYZ product. I hate when some of these terms get co-opted by marketing/big biz. Like "craft" beer. Sounds like maybe one or a few people making small batches of different and interesting beer. No, it includes any company that sells up to 6 million barrels of beer per year. 6 million? Craft? I'd personally put that at 100 barrels at most as a definition of "craft". The leather belt I bought in Florence when I was last in Italy. One man in his small shop making his own handcrafted leather goods. Now that's artisan, or indie, as the case may be.

That hasn't been the accepted definition since...ever. Indie literally COMES from the word independent, and even the most annoying hipster would have to agree that that independence is a core factor of what Indie means. It doesn't matter how small your team or budget is when you don't have the independence to do what you want, and no artisan is going to refuse money that comes with no-strings attached.

That's literally what the discussion is about...
Think about it... is Valve indie? Do they make Indie games?

Yes, they do, and the moment you argue they're not, is the moment you admit your own definition has no clear boundaries, because there is no clear delineation you can point at and say A is indie, but B isn't because X.

That's not how language works.
... but it is a common mistake that people make.
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20.
 
Re: Morning Esports & Competitions
Nov 28, 2023, 13:52
20.
Re: Morning Esports & Competitions Nov 28, 2023, 13:52
Nov 28, 2023, 13:52
 
Hardline Mike wrote on Nov 28, 2023, 13:13:
Prez wrote on Nov 28, 2023, 08:04:
But the bottom line is that you can't have a category for an award without a definition of what the category is. I mean you can, but it would be just another reason to not take the awards seriously.

I don't think it's particularly essential for an awards ceremony to have strictly defined categories. After all, many prestigious awards generally rely on creators to choose which category to submit for. The penalty for poorly choosing which category to submit for is that you might not get a nomination or award because you're competing against others that much better fit the category in the minds of the people picking the winner.

For example, The Bear keeps getting nominated as a Comedy show. It's incredibly not a comedy. It has funny moments, but far less than heavy drama moments. But it's 30 minutes long, and historically, dramas only win when they're 60 minutes, so it gets nominated as a comedy.
19.
 
Re: Morning Esports & Competitions
Nov 28, 2023, 13:13
NKD
19.
Re: Morning Esports & Competitions Nov 28, 2023, 13:13
Nov 28, 2023, 13:13
NKD
 
Prez wrote on Nov 28, 2023, 08:04:
But the bottom line is that you can't have a category for an award without a definition of what the category is. I mean you can, but it would be just another reason to not take the awards seriously.

I don't think it's particularly essential for an awards ceremony to have strictly defined categories. After all, many prestigious awards generally rely on creators to choose which category to submit for. The penalty for poorly choosing which category to submit for is that you might not get a nomination or award because you're competing against others that much better fit the category in the minds of the people picking the winner.
Do you have a single fact to back that up?
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18.
 
Re: Morning Esports & Competitions
Nov 28, 2023, 09:00
18.
Re: Morning Esports & Competitions Nov 28, 2023, 09:00
Nov 28, 2023, 09:00
 
In a real sense, Indie could mean Self-Developed-Published, which would qualify both Valve and Larian.
I started to add Obsidian but that ship has sailed but shockingly m$ does seem interested in quality teamed developers.
So it's possible, they intend to keep Obsidian, Rocking and Rolling, unlike *hit stained ea who only wants IPs, then dismantles teams.
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17.
 
Re: Morning Esports & Competitions
Nov 28, 2023, 08:04
Prez
 
17.
Re: Morning Esports & Competitions Nov 28, 2023, 08:04
Nov 28, 2023, 08:04
 Prez
 
That is at the crux of the matter isn't it. The best way to identify indie games is by feel. You just know when you're playing Cult of the Lamb that you are playing an indie game; and when you're playing BF2042 you know that you definitely are not. Where it always gets messy is when you dive deeper into the minute details to pinpoint exactly when a game goes from 'indie' to... something else. A detailed definition only needs to exist if you're going to have a game awards category. Undoubtedly people will take umbrage with the definition for this reason or that. Every time I try to set a definition for 'indie' I then start plugging different games into it and invariably one fits that feels wrong. But the bottom line is that you can't have a category for an award without a definition of what the category is. I mean you can, but it would be just another reason to not take the awards seriously.
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
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16.
 
Re: Morning Esports & Competitions
Nov 28, 2023, 06:51
16.
Re: Morning Esports & Competitions Nov 28, 2023, 06:51
Nov 28, 2023, 06:51
 
Hardline Mike wrote on Nov 28, 2023, 06:32:
Oh come on. We all know what people are talking about when they refer to "indie games" and what types of games that phrase brings to mind, and what types of games it doesn't.

I completely agree. It's more a broad classification of game than of studio.

Was Gears of War an indie game? Was it more indie than Dave the Diver?
15.
 
Re: Morning Esports & Competitions
Nov 28, 2023, 06:32
NKD
15.
Re: Morning Esports & Competitions Nov 28, 2023, 06:32
Nov 28, 2023, 06:32
NKD
 
Oh come on. We all know what people are talking about when they refer to "indie games" and what types of games that phrase brings to mind, and what types of games it doesn't.
Do you have a single fact to back that up?
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14.
 
Re: Morning Esports & Competitions
Nov 28, 2023, 01:29
14.
Re: Morning Esports & Competitions Nov 28, 2023, 01:29
Nov 28, 2023, 01:29
 
Sepharo wrote on Nov 27, 2023, 21:56:
Razumen wrote on Nov 27, 2023, 21:20:
Cutter wrote on Nov 27, 2023, 20:55:
Razumen wrote on Nov 27, 2023, 19:47:
eRe4s3r wrote on Nov 27, 2023, 19:16:
It has to go by budget as you say, because if you define it as GPT does (or as matter of fact, a dictionary) then it goes by attachment to a larger entity and obviously that is pretty absurd if when you can put games like BG3 in that bracket too.

That's not absurd, because Larian was and still is an independent studio. Team size and budget are not the defining factors of what makes a studio indie, and being successful doesn't mean they're no longer indie either.

I'd disagree with that assessment. I think most people would agree that indie virtually always means small to no real budget to speak of. A few people in a garage or someone's basement making XYZ product. I hate when some of these terms get co-opted by marketing/big biz. Like "craft" beer. Sounds like maybe one or a few people making small batches of different and interesting beer. No, it includes any company that sells up to 6 million barrels of beer per year. 6 million? Craft? I'd personally put that at 100 barrels at most as a definition of "craft". The leather belt I bought in Florence when I was last in Italy. One man in his small shop making his own handcrafted leather goods. Now that's artisan, or indie, as the case may be.

That hasn't been the accepted definition since...ever. Indie literally COMES from the word independent, and even the most annoying hipster would have to agree that that independence is a core factor of what Indie means. It doesn't matter how small your team or budget is when you don't have the independence to do what you want, and no artisan is going to refuse money that comes with no-strings attached.

That's literally what the discussion is about...
Think about it... is Valve indie? Do they make Indie games?

Yes, they do, and the moment you argue they're not, is the moment you admit your own definition has no clear boundaries, because there is no clear delineation you can point at and say A is indie, but B isn't because X.
13.
 
Re: Morning Esports & Competitions
Nov 28, 2023, 01:02
13.
Re: Morning Esports & Competitions Nov 28, 2023, 01:02
Nov 28, 2023, 01:02
 
Speaking of the game awards.... fun how the controversial wizard game from earlier this year that caused all the fuss is not even on the nomination lists. Ohhhh my how spicey!
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12.
 
Re: Morning Esports & Competitions
Nov 27, 2023, 23:30
12.
Re: Morning Esports & Competitions Nov 27, 2023, 23:30
Nov 27, 2023, 23:30
 
When you have different "departments" for your studio - art, code, marketing, finance, etc. - you really don't qualify as "indie" anymore regardless of what the textbook definition of independent is. "Indie" is more about a type of status - low rent - than a hard definition. When you go to indie music events like SXSW to see indie bands you don't see the likes of U2 or the Rolling Stones showing up.
"While playing golf today I hit two good balls. I stepped on a rake." - Henny Youngman
11.
 
Re: Morning Esports & Competitions
Nov 27, 2023, 22:34
Prez
 
11.
Re: Morning Esports & Competitions Nov 27, 2023, 22:34
Nov 27, 2023, 22:34
 Prez
 
Think about it... is Valve indie? Do they make Indie games?

Technically they could. But Valve is not generally accepted as an independent developer, but I have actually heard definitions under which they could qualify. Which is why I say don't pay attention to the developer; rather pay attention to the game. I tend to think that defining indie to the satisfaction of most people involves separating the game from the developer. It seems to me that would be the way to go to get a usable definition for the game awards category at any rate.
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
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10.
 
Re: Morning Esports & Competitions
Nov 27, 2023, 21:56
10.
Re: Morning Esports & Competitions Nov 27, 2023, 21:56
Nov 27, 2023, 21:56
 
Razumen wrote on Nov 27, 2023, 21:20:
Cutter wrote on Nov 27, 2023, 20:55:
Razumen wrote on Nov 27, 2023, 19:47:
eRe4s3r wrote on Nov 27, 2023, 19:16:
It has to go by budget as you say, because if you define it as GPT does (or as matter of fact, a dictionary) then it goes by attachment to a larger entity and obviously that is pretty absurd if when you can put games like BG3 in that bracket too.

That's not absurd, because Larian was and still is an independent studio. Team size and budget are not the defining factors of what makes a studio indie, and being successful doesn't mean they're no longer indie either.

I'd disagree with that assessment. I think most people would agree that indie virtually always means small to no real budget to speak of. A few people in a garage or someone's basement making XYZ product. I hate when some of these terms get co-opted by marketing/big biz. Like "craft" beer. Sounds like maybe one or a few people making small batches of different and interesting beer. No, it includes any company that sells up to 6 million barrels of beer per year. 6 million? Craft? I'd personally put that at 100 barrels at most as a definition of "craft". The leather belt I bought in Florence when I was last in Italy. One man in his small shop making his own handcrafted leather goods. Now that's artisan, or indie, as the case may be.

That hasn't been the accepted definition since...ever. Indie literally COMES from the word independent, and even the most annoying hipster would have to agree that that independence is a core factor of what Indie means. It doesn't matter how small your team or budget is when you don't have the independence to do what you want, and no artisan is going to refuse money that comes with no-strings attached.

That's literally what the discussion is about...
Think about it... is Valve indie? Do they make Indie games?

This comment was edited on Nov 27, 2023, 22:20.
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9.
 
Re: Morning Esports & Competitions
Nov 27, 2023, 21:51
Prez
 
9.
Re: Morning Esports & Competitions Nov 27, 2023, 21:51
Nov 27, 2023, 21:51
 Prez
 
I might point out that dictionary definitions and what games are labeled don't have to match. Ever played an adventure game? How much adventure was in it? Regardless, I don't care if you approve of any singular definition for "indie" (nobody has agreed on one in 40 years, so it's unlikely to change); what matters is that a definition exists as far as an awards category is concerned. It doesn't have to be perfect, but it has to provide clear definition of what games can be nominated and what games can't.
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
Avatar 17185
8.
 
Re: Morning Esports & Competitions
Nov 27, 2023, 21:20
8.
Re: Morning Esports & Competitions Nov 27, 2023, 21:20
Nov 27, 2023, 21:20
 
Cutter wrote on Nov 27, 2023, 20:55:
Razumen wrote on Nov 27, 2023, 19:47:
eRe4s3r wrote on Nov 27, 2023, 19:16:
It has to go by budget as you say, because if you define it as GPT does (or as matter of fact, a dictionary) then it goes by attachment to a larger entity and obviously that is pretty absurd if when you can put games like BG3 in that bracket too.

That's not absurd, because Larian was and still is an independent studio. Team size and budget are not the defining factors of what makes a studio indie, and being successful doesn't mean they're no longer indie either.

I'd disagree with that assessment. I think most people would agree that indie virtually always means small to no real budget to speak of. A few people in a garage or someone's basement making XYZ product. I hate when some of these terms get co-opted by marketing/big biz. Like "craft" beer. Sounds like maybe one or a few people making small batches of different and interesting beer. No, it includes any company that sells up to 6 million barrels of beer per year. 6 million? Craft? I'd personally put that at 100 barrels at most as a definition of "craft". The leather belt I bought in Florence when I was last in Italy. One man in his small shop making his own handcrafted leather goods. Now that's artisan, or indie, as the case may be.

That hasn't been the accepted definition since...ever. Indie literally COMES from the word independent, and even the most annoying hipster would have to agree that that independence is a core factor of what Indie means. It doesn't matter how small your team or budget is when you don't have the independence to do what you want, and no artisan is going to refuse money that comes with no-strings attached.
7.
 
Re: Morning Esports & Competitions
Nov 27, 2023, 20:55
7.
Re: Morning Esports & Competitions Nov 27, 2023, 20:55
Nov 27, 2023, 20:55
 
Razumen wrote on Nov 27, 2023, 19:47:
eRe4s3r wrote on Nov 27, 2023, 19:16:
It has to go by budget as you say, because if you define it as GPT does (or as matter of fact, a dictionary) then it goes by attachment to a larger entity and obviously that is pretty absurd if when you can put games like BG3 in that bracket too.

That's not absurd, because Larian was and still is an independent studio. Team size and budget are not the defining factors of what makes a studio indie, and being successful doesn't mean they're no longer indie either.

I'd disagree with that assessment. I think most people would agree that indie virtually always means small to no real budget to speak of. A few people in a garage or someone's basement making XYZ product. I hate when some of these terms get co-opted by marketing/big biz. Like "craft" beer. Sounds like maybe one or a few people making small batches of different and interesting beer. No, it includes any company that sells up to 6 million barrels of beer per year. 6 million? Craft? I'd personally put that at 100 barrels at most as a definition of "craft". The leather belt I bought in Florence when I was last in Italy. One man in his small shop making his own handcrafted leather goods. Now that's artisan, or indie, as the case may be.
"While playing golf today I hit two good balls. I stepped on a rake." - Henny Youngman
6.
 
Re: Morning Esports & Competitions
Nov 27, 2023, 19:47
6.
Re: Morning Esports & Competitions Nov 27, 2023, 19:47
Nov 27, 2023, 19:47
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Nov 27, 2023, 19:16:
It has to go by budget as you say, because if you define it as GPT does (or as matter of fact, a dictionary) then it goes by attachment to a larger entity and obviously that is pretty absurd if when you can put games like BG3 in that bracket too.

That's not absurd, because Larian was and still is an independent studio. Team size and budget are not the defining factors of what makes a studio indie, and being successful doesn't mean they're no longer indie either.
5.
 
Re: Morning Esports & Competitions
Nov 27, 2023, 19:16
5.
Re: Morning Esports & Competitions Nov 27, 2023, 19:16
Nov 27, 2023, 19:16
 
Prez wrote on Nov 27, 2023, 16:05:
It wasn't long after games not produced by big AAA publishers started appearing that this debate arose. Without going to into a big exploration of the different iterations of what qualifies as "indie" that have been bounced back and forth over decades, I would say that if you want your game awards show to be taken more seriously, you cannot have a category without expressly defining exactly what a game can and can't be for it to be nominated in said category. Saying "we'll just rely on the judgement of those deciding what qualifies" isn't going to cut it.

If I was making the rules as to what games qualify for the "indie" category, I would focus on actual team size and actual budget. I would not focus on whether the team is attached to a larger entity. Perhaps many would disagree, but at least it would be defined so we know that a game belongs in that category.

It has to go by budget as you say, because if you define it as GPT does (or as matter of fact, a dictionary) then it goes by attachment to a larger entity and obviously that is pretty absurd if when you can put games like BG3 in that bracket too. Should just be defined better and we'd probably take these shows a bit more serious, but hey, can't have everything. Anyhow I don't think anything will ever change, as the industry is doing what it does and that is making it a show about itself. Not about the games for the most part. And at least we can agree that the nominations for indy games are pretty decent.
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4.
 
Re: Morning Esports & Competitions
Nov 27, 2023, 16:05
Prez
 
4.
Re: Morning Esports & Competitions Nov 27, 2023, 16:05
Nov 27, 2023, 16:05
 Prez
 
It wasn't long after games not produced by big AAA publishers started appearing that this debate arose. Without going to into a big exploration of the different iterations of what qualifies as "indie" that have been bounced back and forth over decades, I would say that if you want your game awards show to be taken more seriously, you cannot have a category without expressly defining exactly what a game can and can't be for it to be nominated in said category. Saying "we'll just rely on the judgement of those deciding what qualifies" isn't going to cut it.

If I was making the rules as to what games qualify for the "indie" category, I would focus on actual team size and actual budget. I would not focus on whether the team is attached to a larger entity. Perhaps many would disagree, but at least it would be defined so we know that a game belongs in that category.
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
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