Orogogus wrote on Sep 18, 2023, 11:41:

HorrorScope wrote on Sep 18, 2023, 10:43:
I own quite a few of these myself, with this Wizardry game the one thing that turns me off is the pop-up enimies on top of what looks like always the same background. That yells mobile game to me.

That design element is a lot older than mobile gaming. The original 1981 game (originally written in Pascal) is an overlay option for this remake, so it's definitely not a mobile thing here. It's just how dungeon crawlers were for 7 Wizardries, 3 Bard's Tales and 2 Might & Magics. I think Dungeon Master in 1987 was the first crawler where monsters were on the map, but it didn't become standardized until Might & Magic 3 and Eye of the Beholder, both in 1991. Wizardry 7 in 1992 was probably the last major game with random encounters out of nowhere, except for games from Japanese developers, who seem to have really liked the old formula.

You are correct, but when I see it in 2023 I think mobile trash.

HorrorScope,
"My two favorites in the genre are MMX and Bards IV.", exactly like me.

Operencia begins modestly enough for a while, but then gets more and more elaborated to surprising effect.
It has *optional* VR, and played on the Q2 it was quite the unique experience.

As for The Quest, couldn't play it though I tried:
Sadly to my loss, I must have 3D and good graphics in grid dungeons, so, no 2D fixed barely shaken sprite foes will do the credibility trick for me.

*double post, grrr*

HorrorScope wrote on Sep 18, 2023, 10:43:
I own quite a few of these myself, with this Wizardry game the one thing that turns me off is the pop-up enimies on top of what looks like always the same background. That yells mobile game to me.

That design element is a lot older than mobile gaming. The original 1981 game (originally written in Pascal) is an overlay option for this remake, so it's definitely not a mobile thing here. It's just how dungeon crawlers were for 7 Wizardries, 3 Bard's Tales and 2 Might & Magics. I think Dungeon Master in 1987 was the first crawler where monsters were on the map, but it didn't become standardized until Might & Magic 3 and Eye of the Beholder, both in 1991. Wizardry 7 in 1992 was probably the last major game with random encounters out of nowhere, except for games from Japanese developers, who seem to have really liked the old formula.

I own quite a few of these myself, with this Wizardry game the one thing that turns me off is the pop-up enimies on top of what looks like always the same background. That yells mobile game to me. Not that others do it, but if they were naturally placed in the same world and didn't just pop-up, I'd for sure get it.

My two favorites in the genre are MMX and Bards IV, those are AA quality, nearly/if not AAA for this genre. Grimrocks are quality to, but I do hold similar thoughts to what was shared here about them. I haven't got to Operencia, what are your thoughts on that? Liked Fall of the Dungeon Guardians, liked the mouselook-grid movement, this is taking the old formula and modernizing it some.

One that wasn't listed but I have way up there, really fun and smartly developed: Heroes of a Broken Land (Not 2) and I also liked The Quest.

And yes Wiz8 has the best overall formula, real-time mouselook movement while exploring with TB combat that isn't grid, but real world and non-adjusted wysiwyg. I don't know of another game that presents itself like this and to me, there should be many. We need these.

Saboth wrote on Sep 17, 2023, 17:39:

WannaLogAlready wrote on Sep 17, 2023, 14:42:
Fan of grid movement dungeon crawlers, bring it on !

Legend of Grimrock I & II - II has puzzles too complicated
Might & Magic X Legacy +expansion - epic
Operencia The Stolen Sun - VR support
The fall of the dungeon guardians
Vaporum 1 & 2
The Bard's Tale IV Barrows Deep - can be played grid or normal.
Heroes of the Monkey Tavern - very good more combat than puzzles
Arakion Book One - *Early Access* but good
Starcrawlers
7 Mages - hard but good, finished thanks to cheat engine
Dungeon Kingdom Sign of the Moon

Dungeon Hero - cute
Dungeon Of Dragon Knight
Dungeons of Legend Cast Within
KryptCrawler - hard, has a guide in Steam - played with cheat engine

( Coldfire Keep
(( The Keep - console port, mmm
(( Ruzar The Life Stone, meh, uninstalled - buggy when played
(( Crystal Rift - too buggy by far, couldn´t finish it
((( The Deep Paths Labyrinth Of Andokost - poor and too hard,playable only with
CE table by Marc

Lol, pretty much 90% of these are in my library. The only thing I dislike with games like this is puzzles that are too complicated or not intuitive (or there are just too many of them, slowing down progress) or where you have classes that are tanks, but the enemies hit so hard even your tanks are no good, so you just have to "square dance" and try and hit enemies before they can hit you.

Same.

I'm backed up on my queue and have limited time but I'm sorely temped to but it just to support the devs. I love the Wizardry line.

WannaLogAlready wrote on Sep 18, 2023, 04:56:
BoP, I finished Legend of Grimrock II thanks to a puzzle walkthrough or I wouldn't have, one every few meters.
I play games to explore and enjoy the world creation.

My lazy ass hates puzzles in any game really, only do them to progress.

Though in the office I resolved abstruse viral puzzle challenges including a few no one else could, one or two even when I explained them to the whole bunch.
True, there the alternative was working, so anything was preferable ...

Strangely enough, programming solutions, wich I loved and loved getting paid for it, is a kind of puzzle resolving.

Same here. if I want to play a puzzle game, I'll go play a puzzle game. I don't mind a few puzzles in my RPGs, and I know many of them have a history of puzzles, but they really slow down progress and fun imo. Grimrock 2 had some kind of puzzle (graveyard, maybe) that made no sense at all. Even after reading the hint online, I thought "That makes no sense at all...I would never have gotten that." Puzzles rely a lot on either memory or note taking and I have no memory and hate taking notes.

ehushagen wrote on Sep 17, 2023, 13:49:
I'll be keeping a close eye on this one. I absolutely loved the Wizardry series and just recently beat 1, 2, and 3 again. I've watched a couple people streaming this and it definitely needs a little more time in the oven - it's still a little rough around the edges. Looks suuuuper promising, though!

My favorite was Wiz8, which I still have. Played it through from start to finish twice. The earlier Wiz games were fine, but the tech was hobbled when they were released (I was likely heavily into Amigas those years.)

BoP, I finished Legend of Grimrock II thanks to a puzzle walkthrough or I wouldn't have, one every few meters.
I play games to explore and enjoy the world creation.

My lazy ass hates puzzles in any game really, only do them to progress.

Though in the office I resolved abstruse viral puzzle challenges including a few no one else could, one or two even when I explained them to the whole bunch.
True, there the alternative was working, so anything was preferable ...

Strangely enough, programming solutions, wich I loved and loved getting paid for it, is a kind of puzzle resolving.

WannaLogAlready wrote on Sep 17, 2023, 14:42:
Legend of Grimrock I & II - II has puzzles too complicated

....huh? LoG I & II had simple puzzles since they were lifted straight off of Dungeon Master I & II as both games are spiritual remakes of both DM games.

Now OG Eye of the Beholder II had some brutal puzzles.

MoreLuckThanSkill wrote on Sep 17, 2023, 14:46:
At least for me, I think this particular branch of technologically limited game development should die, regardless of how much nostalgia love it triggers in people.

Congrats though, to people who want another one of these.

any actual... reason... you think "this particular branch of technologically limited game development should die"? Since it's apparently not even limited particular branch of technologically limited games in general, but just this particular branch.

Like... sincerely... why?
Do you hate it? Do you find it boring and thus don't think people should have access to it? Do you think there's no learning to be had via deconstructive analysis of a genre's progenitor? Do you think it's holding development back?

All of those possibilities are baffling. So I'm curious...

... why?

You chose to share the opinion. You chose to specify "this particular branch." Legit curious.

Au contraire, I find the puzzles in most of these games mindless and pointless. I like it when a game requires actual critical thinking like Grimrock.

WannaLogAlready wrote on Sep 17, 2023, 14:42:
Fan of grid movement dungeon crawlers, bring it on !

Legend of Grimrock I & II - II has puzzles too complicated
Might & Magic X Legacy +expansion - epic
Operencia The Stolen Sun - VR support
The fall of the dungeon guardians
Vaporum 1 & 2
The Bard's Tale IV Barrows Deep - can be played grid or normal.
Heroes of the Monkey Tavern - very good more combat than puzzles
Arakion Book One - *Early Access* but good
Starcrawlers
7 Mages - hard but good, finished thanks to cheat engine
Dungeon Kingdom Sign of the Moon

Dungeon Hero - cute
Dungeon Of Dragon Knight
Dungeons of Legend Cast Within
KryptCrawler - hard, has a guide in Steam - played with cheat engine

( Coldfire Keep
(( The Keep - console port, mmm
(( Ruzar The Life Stone, meh, uninstalled - buggy when played
(( Crystal Rift - too buggy by far, couldn´t finish it
((( The Deep Paths Labyrinth Of Andokost - poor and too hard,playable only with
CE table by Marc

Lol, pretty much 90% of these are in my library. The only thing I dislike with games like this is puzzles that are too complicated or not intuitive (or there are just too many of them, slowing down progress) or where you have classes that are tanks, but the enemies hit so hard even your tanks are no good, so you just have to "square dance" and try and hit enemies before they can hit you.

Bill Borre wrote on Sep 17, 2023, 14:24:
Just yesterday I was thinking how cool it would be if someone redid Ultima's 1-9 in a single Unreal 5 game.

Since 1-3 barely had any story, better start with 4. Thats when the whole Avatar-Virtue thing started.

At least for me, I think this particular branch of technologically limited game development should die, regardless of how much nostalgia love it triggers in people.

Congrats though, to people who want another one of these.

Fan of grid movement dungeon crawlers, bring it on !

Legend of Grimrock I & II - II has puzzles too complicated
Might & Magic X Legacy +expansion - epic
Operencia The Stolen Sun - VR support
The fall of the dungeon guardians
Vaporum 1 & 2
The Bard's Tale IV Barrows Deep - can be played grid or normal.
Heroes of the Monkey Tavern - very good more combat than puzzles
Arakion Book One - *Early Access* but good
Starcrawlers
7 Mages - hard but good, finished thanks to cheat engine
Dungeon Kingdom Sign of the Moon

Dungeon Hero - cute
Dungeon Of Dragon Knight
Dungeons of Legend Cast Within
KryptCrawler - hard, has a guide in Steam - played with cheat engine

( Coldfire Keep
(( The Keep - console port, mmm
(( Ruzar The Life Stone, meh, uninstalled - buggy when played
(( Crystal Rift - too buggy by far, couldn´t finish it
((( The Deep Paths Labyrinth Of Andokost - poor and too hard,playable only with
CE table by Marc

Just yesterday I was thinking how cool it would be if someone redid Ultima's 1-9 in a single Unreal 5 game.

I'll be keeping a close eye on this one. I absolutely loved the Wizardry series and just recently beat 1, 2, and 3 again. I've watched a couple people streaming this and it definitely needs a little more time in the oven - it's still a little rough around the edges. Looks suuuuper promising, though!

I wonder if it will have the same bugs as the original Apple II version. Anyone remember hitting "Identify #9" until they got a million EXP so they could change the class of their character into Ninja?

Oh nice, the original was a bit before my time, but love some blobbers and dungeon crawlers.