Frame generation is a gimmick. It's just a fancier version of frame interpolation, with all the artifacts and lag you get from it. You're not getting more frames that accurately reflect the game's changing environment or allow you to react more quickly.

It's a shame that cards these days are relying on technology like this to achieve decent framerates instead of actually giving us faster cards.

IgWannA wrote on Aug 26, 2023, 07:05:
Because in the stage presentation he expressly said it would work across all DX11 and 12 games at a driver level. No dev implementation required. Per Euro gamer article: "AMD Fluid Motion Frames (AFMF), which is a driver-level frame generation option for all DirectX 11 and DirectX 12 titles". He also said it would work with "thousands of games". Also, I'm reading conflicting articles where some say it will be available on 5000 series radeon and above, and also RTX 2000 and above, so not limited to 7000 series radeon.

There are two different things they're talking about. AFMF is the driver level implementation for AMD cards in the HYPR-RX driver package.

FSR 3 is the superior implementation and it has to be done at the per game level. This is the one which will work on any vendor card.

IgWannA wrote on Aug 26, 2023, 07:05:

RogueSix wrote on Aug 25, 2023, 21:46:
I'm still not sure what is giving you the idea that it (FG) will simply work on all DX11/DX12 games? It won't. Not even on RX 7000 cards.

Because in the stage presentation he expressly said it would work across all DX11 and 12 games at a driver level. No dev implementation required. Per Euro gamer article: "AMD Fluid Motion Frames (AFMF), which is a driver-level frame generation option for all DirectX 11 and DirectX 12 titles". He also said it would work with "thousands of games". Also, I'm reading conflicting articles where some say it will be available on 5000 series radeon and above, and also RTX 2000 and above, so not limited to 7000 series radeon.

OK, so AMD is writing nVidia drivers now where they magically make their AFMF technology work "at a driver level" on RTX 2000 cards?

Oh well, I'm not going to watch the live presentation so I will have to take your word for it that they really announced it like that. It is strange, however, that none of the articles based on this presentation has actually cited what you claim because that would indeed be pretty big news if it just worked magically across every DX11/DX12 game in existence without any per game implementation (which would imo be impossible but what do I know...).

All in all, I personally think that there might be some misunderstanding on your part, i.e. the AMD guy probably meant that AFMF can potentially be made to work on all DX11/DX12 IF the developer decides to implement the tech for a certain game. But how would it just work without any in-game implementation? I don't get it. But if the AMD guy said so then they must have invented some kind of magic. That's cool.

It makes me wonder though why the rollout is so slow then? Why will it only be supported in Flopspoken and Aveum at first? If it is this magic technology that works across all games at a driver level then why would it be limited to Flopspoken + Aveum (+ 10 more games at a later date)? Call me crazy but to me this sounds a lot like it requires per game implementation.

However, if the AMD guy said it will simply work globally and magically on any DX11 and DX12 game then I guess that overrides everything else (including AMD's own footnotes on their presentation article). We'll just have to wait and see, I guess.

RogueSix wrote on Aug 25, 2023, 21:46:
I'm still not sure what is giving you the idea that it (FG) will simply work on all DX11/DX12 games? It won't. Not even on RX 7000 cards.

Because in the stage presentation he expressly said it would work across all DX11 and 12 games at a driver level. No dev implementation required. Per Euro gamer article: "AMD Fluid Motion Frames (AFMF), which is a driver-level frame generation option for all DirectX 11 and DirectX 12 titles". He also said it would work with "thousands of games". Also, I'm reading conflicting articles where some say it will be available on 5000 series radeon and above, and also RTX 2000 and above, so not limited to 7000 series radeon.

most of that was from AI sales. gaming GPU sales for both nvidia and AMD were at historic lows before that bounce.

1badmf wrote on Aug 25, 2023, 22:09:
overall sales of GPUs are at an all time low so all that pandemic pricing just isn't viable anymore.

Might be true for AMD but nVidia is in another universe at the moment. The billions upon billions just keep piling up as they head from one record quarter to another.

NVIDIA (NASDAQ: NVDA) today reported revenue for the second quarter ended July 30, 2023, of $13.51 billion, up 101% from a year ago and up 88% from the previous quarter. GAAP earnings per diluted share for the quarter were $2.48, up 854% from a year ago and up 202% from the previous quarter. Non-GAAP earnings per diluted share were $2.70, up 429% from a year ago and up 148% from the previous quarter.

Their guidance says $16bn next quarter. That's right: SIXTEEN BILLION. QUARTERLY REVENUE.

And it's not just datacenter that's been heading north. Gaming saw a more modest but still a substantial increase, all of which is very impressive when considering the current economic climate...

Second-quarter revenue [Gaming] was $2.49 billion, up 11% from the previous quarter and up 22% from a year ago.

i'm shocked by the prices. the 6800xt still sells for around $500. so the 7800xt for the same price is a no brainer. i was certain they'd go with $600 greed pricing, but this is the way to gain market share. overall sales of GPUs are at an all time low so all that pandemic pricing just isn't viable anymore.

IgWannA wrote on Aug 25, 2023, 20:39:

RogueSix wrote on Aug 25, 2023, 18:53:

IgWannA wrote on Aug 25, 2023, 13:59:
The biggest take away from all this is that AMD are promising frame generation / interpolation for every DX 11 and 12 game, across ALL graphics cards. Coming 1Q24 apparently. Frame generation is currently only available on Nvidia 40xx cards and with a very limited number of games.

What?

FSR 3 still needs to be supported per game, of course, and it will certainly not just magically work with every DX11/12 game.

I corrected myself above regarding FG (not FSR 3), which will work on all DX 11 and 12 games but only with Radeon 7000+ series cards. I didn't touch on FSR 3, which will work on all cards but, as you say, only with games that support it.

I'm still not sure what is giving you the idea that it (FG) will simply work on all DX11/DX12 games? It won't. Not even on RX 7000 cards.
The AMD article mentions "supported games" several times and the support needs to be implemented, of course, as the footnotes also mention "requires developer integration" several times.

Adoption will be very slow. When nVidia introduced FG last year, AMD countered that with the prospect of having FSR 3 available in early 2023. It is now August and FSR 3 is still nowhere to be seen. Many people expected Starfield to be the first game with FSR 3 because of the huge AMD sponsorship but that turned out to be a no-show.

Instead, the first two games that will receive FSR 3-FG later this fall are the "blockbusters" Flopspoken and Immortals of Aveum, while a whopping (or not), 10 games will follow later. At least they are planning on an UE5 plugin so that's good news for AMD users for once.

FSR 3, by AMD's own admission, and similar to nVidia's DLSS 3 about a year ago, is pretty much all about FG as they have barely touched the upscaling algorithm. Here:

The key enhancement in AMD FSR 3 over FSR 2 is the addition of frame generation.
[...]
However, our focus with FSR 3 has been on creating high-performance, high-quality frame generation technology that works across a broad range of products.

RogueSix wrote on Aug 25, 2023, 18:53:

IgWannA wrote on Aug 25, 2023, 13:59:
The biggest take away from all this is that AMD are promising frame generation / interpolation for every DX 11 and 12 game, across ALL graphics cards. Coming 1Q24 apparently. Frame generation is currently only available on Nvidia 40xx cards and with a very limited number of games.

What?

FSR 3 still needs to be supported per game, of course, and it will certainly not just magically work with every DX11/12 game.

I corrected myself above regarding FG (not FSR 3), which will work on all DX 11 and 12 games but only with Radeon 7000+ series cards. I didn't touch on FSR 3, which will work on all cards but, as you say, only with games that support it.

IgWannA wrote on Aug 25, 2023, 13:59:
The biggest take away from all this is that AMD are promising frame generation / interpolation for every DX 11 and 12 game, across ALL graphics cards. Coming 1Q24 apparently. Frame generation is currently only available on Nvidia 40xx cards and with a very limited number of games.

What?

FSR 3 still needs to be supported per game, of course, and it will certainly not just magically work with every DX11/12 game. Instead of a flagship AMD-sponsored game such as Starfield, AMD has chosen to launch FSR 3 with these two awesome games: Flopspoken and Immortals of Aveum. Yeah, I lol'ed, too.

There is also a reason why DLSS 3 FG is only available on RTX 4000 cards. The so called optical flow accelerator on the RTX 4000 series is magnitudes more capable than the OFA on previous gens and that power is needed to achieve good results according to nVidia. I would say that this is easy to believe given the not entirely problem-free nature of FG. Depending on the individual game and its implementation, there are issues sometimes. nVidia Reflex support is pretty much a must-have for FG.

I personally have not needed FG much yet (RTX 4090) but my experience with FG has only been positive so far. I tried it in MSFS and in The Witcher 3 Remastered. I was especially surprised at the excellent responsiveness of TW3. nVidia Reflex really seemed to help a lot. Evading, parrying, rolling was just as smooth as w/o FG. I could not tell a difference.

Overon wrote on Aug 25, 2023, 13:04:
Am I just an old guy yelling at clouds and get off my lawn?

Yes.

Timmeh wrote on Aug 25, 2023, 12:19:

El Pit wrote on Aug 25, 2023, 12:08:
While it is good to see AMD launch its own Frame Generation thing, I am just not a huge fan of it (neither Nvidia's DLSS). If the power of the GPU is so limited that it needs to downscale and then AI upscale and use "fake" frames and so on, it often shows. I have watched a friend playing Cyperpunk 2077 on a 4090 with DLSS and I think FG was turned on, too, and it just did not look good very often. Ghosting, and sometimes a sort of shimmering effect on e.g. fences and a sort of "bleeding" colors effect... I know, Nvidia and AMD (and most likely Intel) are working on improvements of their solutions but up to now, their solutions still have many obvious problems.
So - right now, no thank you. But good luck improving them and once they look as good as the original image, I will try this on my 7900XT.

I have a 4080 and i play cyberpunk a lot. You can max out the settings, i mean MAX them out at 4K with path tracing and psyco reflections if you use frame generation and DLSS set to QUALITY and get close to 80-100 FPS. You can get 130 FPS if you play at 1440.

I have done tons of testing with all these settings and 4K maxed out with frame gen and DLSS set to QUALITY and you can not tell the difference at all during game play. You have to stop and examine every little detail to find a problem. The game looks stunning.

With these things turned off i cant use even close to those settings and the game does not look even close to as good.

Above post meant to quote this

Like to follow up here's a quote from an EVGA forum for someone who tried it:

Frame generation in it's current state is garbage. Without them introducing some form of asynchronous reprojection as part of the rendering pipeline to make your inputs feel better, frame generation just makes games objectively feel worse. Full stop, not up for debate: Frame generation introduces MORE input lag the more you rely on it. Even with forced on Nvidia reflex the game feels terrible with frame generation on using RT Overdrive. Everything you do feels squishy, imprecise and delayed regardless of the frame counter displaying 90-100fps. It has nothing to do with "AAA developer eye" or "3D artist" or whatever nonsense you're spouting now. The crux of the issue is and always has been the input delay forced upon you by enabling frame generation. I'd take the smaller and harder to notice visual artifacts if they could make it "feel" 1:1 with player input. As it is the tech looks good in videos so show off but the minute you start to actually play it, the facade cracks, and you realize it's not worth the compromise when the game feels like garbage to actually play.

These are not my opinions though, as I haven't tried it. I REALLY wanted to but didn't spring for a new video card when seeing stuff like this. I have a 3080 if it matters.

So that's interesting. I watched a really detailed review of DLSS 3 Frame Generation (I believe by Hardware Unboxed), and they said while the numbers looked amazing, it didn't really feel like it. Basically the game felt like you were running at the lower frame rate with input lag. So they came away from it saying it was really good for numbers but for twitchy games it didn't feel like you were getting that huge frame gain. They said for games like MS Flight Simulator that didn't require twitch reflexes it was great though.

Super high frames rates for me is all about the feel of swinging that mouse around and it FEELING smooth, so that was a real turn off for me and I didn't really look into it further. Are you saying you don't feel like this?

Simon Says wrote on Aug 25, 2023, 14:04:

IgWannA wrote on Aug 25, 2023, 13:59:
The biggest take away from all this is that AMD are promising frame generation / interpolation for every DX 11 and 12 game, across ALL graphics cards.

No, it's gonna be tied to the driver/adrenaline software and be limited to some AMD GPUs ( rumors are RDNA3 and up only ).

Only the dedicated game implementations will be compatible with all GPUs.

Oh, seems you're right about that. 7000 Radeons and above. But at least it can be used in way more games than DLSS 3. And FSR 3 is GPU-agnostic.

IgWannA wrote on Aug 25, 2023, 13:59:
The biggest take away from all this is that AMD are promising frame generation / interpolation for every DX 11 and 12 game, across ALL graphics cards.

No, it's gonna be tied to the driver/adrenaline software and be limited to some AMD GPUs ( rumors are RDNA3 and up only ).

Only the dedicated game implementations will be compatible with all GPUs.

The biggest take away from all this is that AMD are promising frame generation / interpolation for every DX 11 and 12 game, across ALL graphics cards on 7000 series Radeons. Coming 1Q24 apparently. Frame generation is currently only available on Nvidia 40xx cards and with a very limited number of games.

This comment was edited on Aug 25, 2023, 20:40.

AMD is back with the confusing pricing: 7800 XT is $500 with the 7700 XT at $450. With that small of a gap even if it does make sense from a performance standpoint the higher end one has 16GB VRAM rather than 12GB which makes it the only logical choice given the ~11% price increase for ~33% more VRAM.

Edit: I don't get frame generation at all either it's obvious in fast paced games and not necessary outside of them. Sadly DLSS, FSR and XeSS are likely to become more and more important if the initial UE5 games are any indication.

Overon wrote on Aug 25, 2023, 13:04:
Since the beginning of my gaming hobby, I have purchased graphics cards to have less blur.but modern times we get LCD monitors (vs CRT monitors) which have a tendency to increase blur, we have motion blur in games (I always turn that off, why does this exist?) and now we have DLSS3 and FSR3 which also have blur artifacts as they generate frames. What are we doing? Is this progress?

Am I just an old guy yelling at clouds and get off my lawn?

Heh, no, I am the same way. I turn off everything that creates blurriness in games. I want everything to be as crisp as possible.

Since the beginning of my gaming hobby, I have purchased graphics cards to have less blur.but modern times we get LCD monitors (vs CRT monitors) which have a tendency to increase blur, we have motion blur in games (I always turn that off, why does this exist?) and now we have DLSS3 and FSR3 which also have blur artifacts as they generate frames. What are we doing? Is this progress?

Am I just an old guy yelling at clouds and get off my lawn?

Will be interesting to see how FSR 3 competes with DLSS 3.5. So far from FSR what I've seen is it just doesn't compare to DLSS 2.4+, for just a screenshot it's not bad but in actual motion handling not great when I've tried it back to back in games.