Denuvo on DRM's Performance Impact

An interview on Ars Technica titled "Denuvo wants to convince you its DRM isn’t "evil'" chats with Steeve Huin, COO of Irdeto, owner of the Denuvo DRM software. The conversation acknowledges the distrust the gaming community has for Denuvo, but ignores the complaints of legitimate users and blames pirates. "In the pirating/cracking community, we're seen as evil because we're helping DRM exist" Huin explains. "And we're ensuring people make money out of games." Ars notes the truth of the latter point: "Despite the very public performance concerns, major game publishers have continued to support Denuvo over the years for a very simple reason: It delays the release of piracy-enabling cracks—and sometimes stops them completely." Legitimate customers counter this by complaining that they are being punished for the misdeeds of others. The thrust of the interview is to reassure gamers that Denuvo DRM has zero impact. When confronted with examples where game performance demonstrably improved after Denuvo was dropped, Huin says this is comparing apples to oranges, saying "gamers [almost] never get access to the same version of [a game] protected and unprotected. There might be over the lifetime of the game a protected and unprotected version, but these are not comparable because these are different builds over six months, many bug fixes, etc., which could make it better or worse." The solution he proposes is to allow "independent benchmarks" using a test case Denuvo will supply:
After years of public uproar over Denuvo's alleged performance impact, though, Huin said he knows much of the gaming community won't take him at his word. "Our voice is unfortunately not sufficient to convince people because we're not trusted in their mind as a starting point in that debate," he said.

To get around that mistrust, Huin said Irdeto is working on a program that would provide two nearly identical versions of a game to trusted media outlets: one with Denuvo protection and one without. After that program rolls out, hopefully sometime in the next few months, Huin hopes independent benchmarks will allow the tech press to "see for yourself that the performance is comparable, identical... and that would provide something that would hopefully be trusted by the community."
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Re: Denuvo on DRM's Performance Impact
Jul 8, 2023, 12:02
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Re: Denuvo on DRM's Performance Impact Jul 8, 2023, 12:02
Jul 8, 2023, 12:02
 
then why are the cracked versions faster? like for like build wise....
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
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Re: Denuvo on DRM's Performance Impact
Jul 8, 2023, 12:09
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Re: Denuvo on DRM's Performance Impact Jul 8, 2023, 12:09
Jul 8, 2023, 12:09
 
And scientists hired by the tobacco industry got paid to say cigarettes were harmless, for years.
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Re: Denuvo on DRM's Performance Impact
Jul 8, 2023, 12:25
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Re: Denuvo on DRM's Performance Impact Jul 8, 2023, 12:25
Jul 8, 2023, 12:25
 
Armengar wrote on Jul 8, 2023, 12:02:
then why are the cracked versions faster? like for like build wise....

Read the news post? Huin literally says why .

I have never had a single issue with Denuvo and I'm glad it helps protect games during the critical release window at least 9/10 times. Unfortunately, whatever test case Huin & co. are going to bring forward, the thieves will not trust it and they will continue to spread their FUD so I think it's a waste of resources but good on them for at least trying...
-=Threadcrappeur Extraordinaire=-
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Re: Denuvo on DRM's Performance Impact
Jul 8, 2023, 12:43
Prez
 
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Re: Denuvo on DRM's Performance Impact Jul 8, 2023, 12:43
Jul 8, 2023, 12:43
 Prez
 
Or course Denuvo isn't evil. And often the performance problems are artificially amplified by the internet blood-in-the-water effect. I am not a fan of any DRM, but given the choice between online-only garbage that ensures a game disappears from existence once the arbitrary and unnecessary central server is shut down or Denuvo, I will choose Denuvo every time as long as they are true to their word and remove it once the DRM is inevitably cracked. They have done this on many games, so credit to them. I would like 100% of single player games to be DRM free but we don't live in an ideal world. Denuvo is by far the lesser of 2 evils.
"The assumption that animals are without rights, and the illusion that our treatment of them has no moral significance, is a positively outrageous example of Western crudity and barbarity. Universal compassion is the only guarantee of morality."
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Re: Denuvo on DRM's Performance Impact
Jul 8, 2023, 13:00
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Re: Denuvo on DRM's Performance Impact Jul 8, 2023, 13:00
Jul 8, 2023, 13:00
 
Steeve Huin said nothing about Denuvo eating babies, that's proof positive it Om Nom Noms those little crotch goblins.
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Re: Denuvo on DRM's Performance Impact
Jul 8, 2023, 13:03
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Re: Denuvo on DRM's Performance Impact Jul 8, 2023, 13:03
Jul 8, 2023, 13:03
 
Maybe they should just do what they said and then report on the facts, instead of saying everyone else is wrong before the facts are in.
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Re: Denuvo on DRM's Performance Impact
Jul 8, 2023, 13:22
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Re: Denuvo on DRM's Performance Impact Jul 8, 2023, 13:22
Jul 8, 2023, 13:22
 
I find it incredibly interesting that "the reported differences are because they are different versions of the game, and not the same." They now want to spend some time putting something together to give an "apples to apples" comparison. So, basically they are saying they can't just grab a current game, take Denuvo out of the equation, and see if it's different. Now why do you suppose they need to build something for this demonstration? Could it be because it really does affect performance, so they need time to figure out how to present something that doesn't appear to affect performance?
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Re: Denuvo on DRM's Performance Impact
Jul 8, 2023, 13:28
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Re: Denuvo on DRM's Performance Impact Jul 8, 2023, 13:28
Jul 8, 2023, 13:28
 
Armengar wrote on Jul 8, 2023, 12:02:
then why are the cracked versions faster? like for like build wise....
Citation? I'm not a fan of anything that adds extra expense and potentially performance issues to a game, but I'm somewhat sympathetic to game companies wanting to protect their investment of often tens or even hundreds of millions of dollars. And a somewhat more rigorous examination of that as suggested by Mr. Huin himself would be the most appropriate way to measure that delta:
To get around that mistrust, Huin said Irdeto is working on a program that would provide two nearly identical versions of a game to trusted media outlets: one with Denuvo protection and one without.
The question is, is that delta 10% or 1%?
If Russia stops fighting, the war ends. If Ukraine stops fighting, Ukraine ends. Slava Ukraini!
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Re: Denuvo on DRM's Performance Impact
Jul 8, 2023, 13:29
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Re: Denuvo on DRM's Performance Impact Jul 8, 2023, 13:29
Jul 8, 2023, 13:29
 
C I Systems wrote on Jul 8, 2023, 13:22:
I find it incredibly interesting that "the reported differences are because they are different versions of the game, and not the same." They now want to spend some time putting something together to give an "apples to apples" comparison. So, basically they are saying they can't just grab a current game, take Denuvo out of the equation, and see if it's different. Now why do you suppose they need to build something for this demonstration? Could it be because it really does affect performance, so they need time to figure out how to present something that doesn't appear to affect performance?
IIRC, Denuvo is integrated into the game code itself, so removing it requires some effort?
If Russia stops fighting, the war ends. If Ukraine stops fighting, Ukraine ends. Slava Ukraini!
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Re: Denuvo on DRM's Performance Impact
Jul 8, 2023, 13:49
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Re: Denuvo on DRM's Performance Impact Jul 8, 2023, 13:49
Jul 8, 2023, 13:49
 
jdreyer wrote on Jul 8, 2023, 13:28:
Armengar wrote on Jul 8, 2023, 12:02:
then why are the cracked versions faster? like for like build wise....
Citation? I'm not a fan of anything that adds extra expense and potentially performance issues to a game, but I'm somewhat sympathetic to game companies wanting to protect their investment of often tens or even hundreds of millions of dollars. And a somewhat more rigorous examination of that as suggested by Mr. Huin himself would be the most appropriate way to measure that delta:
To get around that mistrust, Huin said Irdeto is working on a program that would provide two nearly identical versions of a game to trusted media outlets: one with Denuvo protection and one without.
The question is, is that delta 10% or 1%?

you wont find official citations. it would be journaliatic suicide to start using empress cracks on games.

There have been youtubes with before and after. most have been taken down, an f1 2018 can still be found. Hitman ones are harder to find. resident evil ones can also be found.

developers have also been on record to say that is does slow down their games. Atomic heart dev being one. Apparently DLSS makes up for the shortfall....

empress released a before and after for hogwarts showing slowdowns earlier this year. The youtube is still up. no idea if this is true, i dont have the game.

yettea has a large amount of video with before and after. checkout the ghostwire tokyo results on that one. Thats the difference between playable and really not playable on a low end system.

callisto protocol reviewers have alluded to denuvo being an issue without outright saying they have compared with cracked versions....

i have not linked to the youtubes as i doubt blue wants links to cracks. It takes seconds to google them from my description.
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
11.
 
Re: Denuvo on DRM's Performance Impact
Jul 8, 2023, 14:03
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Re: Denuvo on DRM's Performance Impact Jul 8, 2023, 14:03
Jul 8, 2023, 14:03
 
The thrust of the interview is to reassure gamers that Denuvo DRM has zero impact.

oh fuck off.
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Re: Denuvo on DRM's Performance Impact
Jul 8, 2023, 14:18
12.
Re: Denuvo on DRM's Performance Impact Jul 8, 2023, 14:18
Jul 8, 2023, 14:18
 
From teh intarwebz
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Re: Denuvo on DRM's Performance Impact
Jul 8, 2023, 15:02
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Re: Denuvo on DRM's Performance Impact Jul 8, 2023, 15:02
Jul 8, 2023, 15:02
 
Pr()ZaC wrote on Jul 8, 2023, 14:18:
From teh intarwebz

Interesting, but also why would you disable hyperthreading and expect it to perform better while your computer is running multiple tasks?

Denuvo is annoying, like all DRM. Of course it has a small percentage impact. More interesting is the linked article in that article Prozac posted, about some Intel CPUs having issues with Denuvo, as stated by Intel themselves.

If a person thinks Denuvo's performance hit is enough to not buy a game, don't buy the game. Unfortunately all people can do is vote with their wallets. Billion dollar corporations are not going to stop using DRM on video games anytime soon. Luckily most games seem to run well enough even with Denuvo integrated into them.


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Re: Denuvo on DRM's Performance Impact
Jul 8, 2023, 15:19
14.
Re: Denuvo on DRM's Performance Impact Jul 8, 2023, 15:19
Jul 8, 2023, 15:19
 
If I remember correctly, many (recent?) Denuvo-protected games that were "cracked" still have Denuvo in them. They just found a bypass mechanism. So the performance between them would be the same.
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Re: Denuvo on DRM's Performance Impact
Jul 8, 2023, 15:29
15.
Re: Denuvo on DRM's Performance Impact Jul 8, 2023, 15:29
Jul 8, 2023, 15:29
 
The question is does the developer trust his paying customers? If I've paid for a game, I would expect it to be DRM free, which is why I stick with GOG whenever possible. They won't sell DRM-ed games, period. I respect that and give them my business whenever possible because of it. Even Steam sells non-DRM-ed games, as I purchased several over the last couple of years that run right from their executables, just like Gog games run--not even requiring Steamworks (Gog games do not require Galaxy.) Valve says they leave DRM up to the dev. I have one game bought through Epic sans DRM (haven't bought much from EGS, no particular reason.) So, not all developers mistrust their paying customers. Also, Denuvo charges the publisher I'm sure on a per-copy basis, so Denuvo is costing the developer something, however much that might be. It's just sort of insulting to me as I buy my software.
It is well known that I cannot err--and so, if you should happen across an error in anything I have written you can be absolutely sure that *I* did not write it!...;)
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Re: Denuvo on DRM's Performance Impact
Jul 8, 2023, 15:53
16.
Re: Denuvo on DRM's Performance Impact Jul 8, 2023, 15:53
Jul 8, 2023, 15:53
 
Denuvo should get kickbacks from cpu makers since in some cases you can see a big difference from a quad to 6 core or maybe these days a 6 to 8 core.
17.
 
Re: Denuvo on DRM's Performance Impact
Jul 8, 2023, 16:35
Prez
 
17.
Re: Denuvo on DRM's Performance Impact Jul 8, 2023, 16:35
Jul 8, 2023, 16:35
 Prez
 
Rectal Prolapse wrote on Jul 8, 2023, 15:19:
If I remember correctly, many (recent?) Denuvo-protected games that were "cracked" still have Denuvo in them. They just found a bypass mechanism. So the performance between them would be the same.

That is probably true. Personally I am laser-focused on whether or not the DRM will prevent me from playing the game whenever I want, as long into the future as I want. Whatever they do to make that so, I am satisfied. I always say it, but I can STILL play the original Descent and Starsiege. I did so just this past week. There's a cubic fuck-ton of games that died in the last 10 years that I can't say that about.
"The assumption that animals are without rights, and the illusion that our treatment of them has no moral significance, is a positively outrageous example of Western crudity and barbarity. Universal compassion is the only guarantee of morality."
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18.
 
Re: Denuvo on DRM's Performance Impact
Jul 8, 2023, 16:43
Jim
18.
Re: Denuvo on DRM's Performance Impact Jul 8, 2023, 16:43
Jul 8, 2023, 16:43
Jim
 
WaltSee wrote on Jul 8, 2023, 15:29:
The question is does the developer trust his paying customers? If I've paid for a game, I would expect it to be DRM free, which is why I stick with GOG whenever possible.
The developer wants to have paying customers first. It is easy to "trust" customers after a game has been available for a year plus and then sure GOG makes sense.
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Re: Denuvo on DRM's Performance Impact
Jul 8, 2023, 17:17
19.
Re: Denuvo on DRM's Performance Impact Jul 8, 2023, 17:17
Jul 8, 2023, 17:17
 
Grabs chair and snacks. Popcorn
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Re: Denuvo on DRM's Performance Impact
Jul 8, 2023, 20:33
20.
Re: Denuvo on DRM's Performance Impact Jul 8, 2023, 20:33
Jul 8, 2023, 20:33
 
Prez wrote on Jul 8, 2023, 12:43:
Or course Denuvo isn't evil. And often the performance problems are artificially amplified by the internet blood-in-the-water effect. I am not a fan of any DRM, but given the choice between online-only garbage that ensures a game disappears from existence once the arbitrary and unnecessary central server is shut down or Denuvo, I will choose Denuvo every time as long as they are true to their word and remove it once the DRM is inevitably cracked. They have done this on many games, so credit to them. I would like 100% of single player games to be DRM free but we don't live in an ideal world. Denuvo is by far the lesser of 2 evils.

It's true, there ARE worse things than terrible. But... hear me out... maybe DON'T include DRM at all.
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