RogueSix wrote on Jun 28, 2023, 11:22:
Starfield is a different story in so far as AMD is not adding something extra (they're not) but instead they are specifically BRIBING Bethesda to NOT implement DLSS. AMD are paying Bethesda to piss off 84% of the dGPU market by excluding a competitor's technology. That's why a lot of people aren't too happy with this move (see Steam forums which are on fire).

There's no evidence that AMD is paying Bethesda not to support DLSS. Further, FSR is a multi-vendor solution whereas DLSS is vendor exclusive. If developers had to pick one implementation, then it should always be the one with the widest support (though obviously the best case would be for FSR, DLSS and XeSS to all be supported).

I think it's hilarious to see so many adults throwing their toys out the pram when we have next to no information about how the game performs, what upscaling solutions are supported, or whether the game is even any good. I also sincerely doubt that anyone really interested in the game is really going to skip a huge release like this - it's just hollow virtue-signalling.

I'm an nVidia owner and still don't see what all this fuss is about. DLSS isn't as impressive as some of you make out.

thestryker wrote on Jun 28, 2023, 21:57:

Razumen wrote on Jun 28, 2023, 19:46:

Prez wrote on Jun 28, 2023, 11:07:
This wouldn't be the first time. Remember Phys-X? If you didn't have an Nvidia card you missed out on some amazing physics in games. I first encountered it in Arkham Asylum I think.

Not even the same, Physx did not force devs to not include other physics options.

There's no evidence to support AMD forcing no DLSS support anymore than there is nvidia forcing no FSR support. When the two companies sponsor a game they do a lot of work on their scaling technique for the game which to no surprise means they're not going to do the work for a competing technology. At that point it's up to the game developer to support the other techniques and a lot have obviously chosen to not do that work.

I will say I find it very interesting how many people immediately jumped to this "AMD is screwing us" conclusion despite zero evidence and yet there's nary a cry when games support DLSS but not FSR.

Except there is, pretty much every game that nvidia sponsors supports dlss and fsr. Almost every game that amd sponsors DOESN'T doesn't feature dlss. I think AMD has sponsored only 4 games that also have dlss.

And regardless of that, my comment still stands, because because things like Phsyx didn't require developers to exclude other features, like they are claiming it did.

Razumen wrote on Jun 28, 2023, 19:46:

Prez wrote on Jun 28, 2023, 11:07:
This wouldn't be the first time. Remember Phys-X? If you didn't have an Nvidia card you missed out on some amazing physics in games. I first encountered it in Arkham Asylum I think.

Not even the same, Physx did not force devs to not include other physics options.

There's no evidence to support AMD forcing no DLSS support anymore than there is nvidia forcing no FSR support. When the two companies sponsor a game they do a lot of work on their scaling technique for the game which to no surprise means they're not going to do the work for a competing technology. At that point it's up to the game developer to support the other techniques and a lot have obviously chosen to not do that work.

I will say I find it very interesting how many people immediately jumped to this "AMD is screwing us" conclusion despite zero evidence and yet there's nary a cry when games support DLSS but not FSR.

Prez wrote on Jun 28, 2023, 11:07:
This wouldn't be the first time. Remember Phys-X? If you didn't have an Nvidia card you missed out on some amazing physics in games. I first encountered it in Arkham Asylum I think.

Not even the same, Physx did not force devs to not include other physics options.

RogueSix wrote on Jun 28, 2023, 11:22:
Starfield is a different story in so far as AMD is not adding something extra (they're not) but instead they are specifically BRIBING Bethesda to NOT implement DLSS. AMD are paying Bethesda to piss off 84% of the dGPU market by excluding a competitor's technology. That's why a lot of people aren't too happy with this move (see Steam forums which are on fire).

There's no evidence to support AMD is paying to keep DLSS off of anything. One of the prior posts had a list which included other games they've had paid exclusives for that had DLSS as well. The most likely situation is that AMD is doing the heavy lifting on the FSR implementation and if DLSS doesn't end up in the game it will likely be due to Bethesda choosing to not spend their own developers time on it.

RogueSix wrote on Jun 28, 2023, 16:45:
That very much depends on one's definition of "adequate" ... [snip]

You're not wrong.

Nullity wrote on Jun 28, 2023, 12:51:

RogueSix wrote on Jun 27, 2023, 17:13:
Microsoft is giving zero fucks about the PC. It is all about Xbox for them.

This absolutely used to be the case, but in all fairness, it hasn't been for a several years now. I have no doubt that MS prioritizes Xbox, but they've turned things around and have been giving PC gaming adequate attention.

That very much depends on one's definition of "adequate" .

The only thing I'm reasonably happy about is/was the return of Microsoft Flight Simulator. Unfortunately, they have now broken their promise of 10 year long support so they have flushed the very seedlings of my reborn trust right down the toilet again.

Age of Empires IV was forgettable and did not do the venerable franchise any justice. That game should have come with way more attention to detail down to individual UI designs for each civilization, MUCH more unit variety based on historical accuracy and... and... and...

Anyway, everything that Microsoft is doing has one goal: GamePass. Xbox GamePass. That is also why they have broken their promise of decade long support for MSFS. They want MSFS 2024 as a new SKU on GamePass. They don't care about PC gamers.
GamePass is the epitome of the Xboxification of the PC. GamePass games are UWP apps. No modding, no access to the game files even, tons of restrictions, everything is a nicely walled garden within GamePass, exactly as Microsoft likes it, and how they envision the future of the PC (also see the current news about their cloud plans for desktop PCs).

I would advise utmost caution and not to be blinded just because M$ have brought (back) a few games to Steam. It's pretty clear what Microsoft's long term goals are like. They are still dreaming of walled gardens and of private users forced to rely 100% on their cloud services so that they can finally spy on our files, images, videos and e-mails and everything else without any limits whatsoever.

Properly implemented, it can be on par with DLSS. So what’s the fuss?

Lord Tea wrote on Jun 28, 2023, 12:42:

RogueSix wrote on Jun 28, 2023, 11:22:
AMD are paying Bethesda to piss off 84% of the dGPU market by excluding a competitor's technology.

Why would they? FSR runs just fine on most Nv hardware. Something that can’t be said about DLSS running on AMD hardware due to Nv‘s decision to make is Nv only.

Sure, it runs on Nvidia hardware, but it's wholly inferior to DLSS2/3.

RogueSix wrote on Jun 27, 2023, 17:13:
Microsoft is giving zero fucks about the PC. It is all about Xbox for them.

This absolutely used to be the case, but in all fairness, it hasn't been for a several years now. I have no doubt that MS prioritizes Xbox, but they've turned things around and have been giving PC gaming adequate attention.

RogueSix wrote on Jun 28, 2023, 11:22:
AMD are paying Bethesda to piss off 84% of the dGPU market by excluding a competitor's technology.

Why would they? FSR runs just fine on most Nv hardware. Something that can’t be said about DLSS running on AMD hardware due to Nv‘s decision to make is Nv only.

Prez wrote on Jun 28, 2023, 11:07:
This wouldn't be the first time. Remember Phys-X? If you didn't have an Nvidia card you missed out on some amazing physics in games. I first encountered it in Arkham Asylum I think.

Well, the difference is that PhysX gave you something extra. nVidia has had a lot of that stuff in the past like Hairworks in The Witcher 3 or their special shadows technology like the PCSS shadows in some games or HBAO+ and so on... all that stuff that they have marketed and advertised under the "nVidia Gameworks" label. It was always an EXTRA though. You did not need it. AMD users did not really lose anything.
AMD did the same with their own TressFX technology by the way which was AMD's version of Hairworks that sometimes only worked with AMD GPUs. Again: This was always something extra, a bonus.

Starfield is a different story in so far as AMD is not adding something extra (they're not) but instead they are specifically BRIBING Bethesda to NOT implement DLSS. AMD are paying Bethesda to piss off 84% of the dGPU market by excluding a competitor's technology. That's why a lot of people aren't too happy with this move (see Steam forums which are on fire).

Oh well, I got my refund from GMG in the meantime and gonna spend it on some other tasty game(s) in the future. Good riddance to Starfield. Cya when you're €20 (max) on sale for the GOTY or Galactic Edition or whatever lame unoriginal name Bethesda is gonna slap on this fucker...

I have to laugh at people stating "Hurrrrr AMD is alienating 84% of the market". No, they're not. They don't give a fuck about PC scrubs outside of lip service.

They own the console market, lock, stock, and barrel, and Starfield was designed for the console market first and foremost. Every video showcasing it has someone with an Xbox controller in their hand. Yes, they are a Microsoft studio now but they also know where the bread is buttered and those will be console sales.PS5 and Xbox sales will absolutely dwarf whatever numbers PC sales put up.

This wouldn't be the first time. Remember Phys-X? If you didn't have an Nvidia card you missed out on some amazing physics in games. I first encountered it in Arkham Asylum I think.

Nice. Niiiice. Niiiiiice.

We'll see what actually happens on the PC user side, but I did build an all AMD system a year and a half ago.

AMD's FSR or whatever does not seem to have near the adoption rate of DLSS, I hope that changes, or these fuckers all start using an open standard.

Lord Tea wrote on Jun 28, 2023, 03:13:
This is wonderful news! I’m absolutely delighted about AMD/Bethesda showing Nv the well deserved middle finger on their proprietary, much hated DLSS. This will ensure we (ALL, AMD and Nv users alike) will get full focus on one technology- that is FSR 2 (and maybe even 3 in the future). I’m really tempted to preorder Starfield because of this.

Hahaha, this place is always good for laughs. DLSS is not much hated at all.

There's a modder currently making 5 figures a month on Patreon to add DLSS support to games which don't have it... This will be a BIG payday for them. Already committed to releasing DLSS3 within the early access period.

This is wonderful news! I’m absolutely delighted about AMD/Bethesda showing Nv the well deserved middle finger on their proprietary, much hated DLSS. This will ensure we (ALL, AMD and Nv users alike) will get full focus on one technology- that is FSR 2 (and maybe even 3 in the future). I’m really tempted to preorder Starfield because of this.

Simon Says wrote on Jun 27, 2023, 18:48:
Hint: Nvidia is doing it too.

Always remember, corporations aren't your friends, they don't care.

Bingo
QFT

It's foolish to think there will be any real performance difference on amd/nvidia/intel hardware other than the baseline differences that exist. It is entirely possible that developers used AMD's assistance to put in AMD centric technologies, but that's something nvidia has done as well.

From what I recall there has been a handful of games sponsored by each company to carry the others upscaling, but most don't. I'd say the reason for the ones who don't is likely that they didn't want to dedicate their own developers time to the feature.