Quboid wrote on May 31, 2023, 19:53:

I hope they take the setting seriously. That's the message I'm getting from them but only independent gameplay will tell. If they take it seriously then I don't give a fuck about the complaints/free publicity about how war is bad.

Exactly. As BoP said, it is unlikely it will be as sobering and impactful to be a true "Spec Ops The Line" type game about Fallujah, but that doesn't necessarily render it valueless. I would be happy if it was at least as good as Black Hawk Down.

thestryker wrote on May 31, 2023, 18:55:

fujiJuice wrote on May 31, 2023, 17:52:

thestryker wrote on May 31, 2023, 14:33:
It would be like playing a game set in 1993 Mogadishu.

Delta Force: Black Hawk Down

I feel like I own this somewhere.

Specificity matters and I didn't look up the name of the engagement like I should have entirely my bad. I should have looked it up and said Battle of Mogadishu which is what I actually meant. The game you linked is a more than just that singular battle it's part of the narrative not the entire thing.

So you're referring to the scope of the game, rather than the subject material? I didn't get that at first so my reaction was the same as Prez's.

Delta Force: Black Hawk Down (loved that game!) wasn't just the battle of Mogadishu, but it was such a central point to the game that if it had been called Delta Force: The Battle of Mogadishu no one would feel short changed playing it. This game might be the same. Or they've figured out a structure that works in this limited scope, I'm sure that's possible. But most likely, it's just really short.

I hope they take the setting seriously. That's the message I'm getting from them but only independent gameplay will tell. If they take it seriously then I don't give a fuck about the complaints/free publicity about how war is bad.

jdreyer wrote on May 31, 2023, 18:53:

Jim wrote on May 31, 2023, 18:13:
LOL 14 years for "Early Access"

Star Citizen has entered the chat.

Yes, but do I still get the mount promised when I preordered this at Egghead Games?

fujiJuice wrote on May 31, 2023, 17:52:

thestryker wrote on May 31, 2023, 14:33:
It would be like playing a game set in 1993 Mogadishu.

Delta Force: Black Hawk Down

I feel like I own this somewhere.

Specificity matters and I didn't look up the name of the engagement like I should have entirely my bad. I should have looked it up and said Battle of Mogadishu which is what I actually meant. The game you linked is a more than just that singular battle it's part of the narrative not the entire thing.

Jim wrote on May 31, 2023, 18:13:
LOL 14 years for "Early Access"

Star Citizen has entered the chat.

LOL 14 years for "Early Access"

fujiJuice wrote on May 31, 2023, 17:52:

thestryker wrote on May 31, 2023, 14:33:
It would be like playing a game set in 1993 Mogadishu.

Delta Force: Black Hawk Down

I feel like I own this somewhere.

Thank you. I didn't want to address the obvious flaw in his argument. A lot of good trying to be diplomatic did me ...

thestryker wrote on May 31, 2023, 14:33:
It would be like playing a game set in 1993 Mogadishu.

Delta Force: Black Hawk Down

I feel like I own this somewhere.

Deleted

This comment was edited on May 31, 2023, 17:47.

Burrito of Peace wrote on May 31, 2023, 15:14:

thestryker wrote on May 31, 2023, 14:33:
I've never understood why anyone would want to make a game about Fallujah. It would be like playing a game set in 1993 Mogadishu.

Yet we have had games, too few, about Vietnam. No one celebrates Vietnam because it is the largest military clusterfuck in US history but it is an important part of US history nonetheless. The vets of it are dying off now and those voices, at least those willing to speak, who can teach us about it beyond the approved, sanitized curriculum and propaganda are disappearing.

I think games can be a powerful teaching and informing medium and to shy away from hard or controversial topics is a disservice to the medium. I don't think most people are going to celebrate Fallujah. But knowing the truth about it, experiencing it through simulation, and better understanding it? Hopefully that in part informs several generations so that we don't repeat the mistakes of Vietnam and Afghanistan in the future.

They absolutely can be, but this is more like if someone made a game about Khe Sanh rather than one set in/about the Vietnam War. When you limit yourself to a specific battle, especially in this case, you're limiting the scope of what you can do. The war in Iraq was far bigger than anything that happened in Fallujah which was ugly but cut and dried. Fallujah was all about kicking in doors and hoping to not die which led to increasing civilian deaths as it went on. This is all the game appears to be which I don't find to be a worthwhile or compelling use of history.

It's about time, only been waiting for this game forever.

thestryker wrote on May 31, 2023, 14:33:
I've never understood why anyone would want to make a game about Fallujah. It would be like playing a game set in 1993 Mogadishu.

Yet we have had games, too few, about Vietnam. No one celebrates Vietnam because it is the largest military clusterfuck in US history but it is an important part of US history nonetheless. The vets of it are dying off now and those voices, at least those willing to speak, who can teach us about it beyond the approved, sanitized curriculum and propaganda are disappearing.

I think games can be a powerful teaching and informing medium and to shy away from hard or controversial topics is a disservice to the medium. I don't think most people are going to celebrate Fallujah. But knowing the truth about it, experiencing it through simulation, and better understanding it? Hopefully that in part informs several generations so that we don't repeat the mistakes of Vietnam and Afghanistan in the future.

Prez wrote on May 31, 2023, 14:44:

thestryker wrote on May 31, 2023, 14:33:
I've never understood why anyone would want to make a game about Fallujah. It would be like playing a game set in 1993 Mogadishu. Terrible combat which didn't need to happen caused by inept leadership that damaged both sides badly along with civilians. Something with a wider focus could work just as effectively from a gameplay and storytelling perspective.

With Spec Ops The Line they were able to tell a powerful story without dragging real history into it. I think it's unfortunate that we haven't seen more combat games that tell stories focused on people. A replayability focused procedurally generated coop shooter is not what comes to mind when I think of storytelling though.

I will never, ever subscribe to this logic. A battle such as this would not be off limits for a book or a movie. But someone wants to make a game about it, them all of a sudden it's off limits. People largely treat movies and books as entertainment , yet allow for thoughtful and nuanced explorations of actual tragic events constantly. It's almost like people accept that those mediums can handle the subject with enough care and dedication to an honest portrayal that it isn't an immediate no-go. Yet we'll lose our shit about games because we have a singular, wrongheaded view that we have to absolutely enjoy and consume without any thought or maturity.
That's not to say that it looks like they are being mature and careful with the portrayal of this particular game, but to declare it off limits for a game is narrow-minded and wrong-headed in my opinion. How many movies were made about 9/11?

At no point did I say they shouldn't be allowed to make the game nor that it should be off limits. Perhaps try actually reading before getting on your soapbox. I said it doesn't make sense to make a game about the battle and they'd be better served by widening the focus. This does not preclude them from including the battle. I don't see what's compelling about making a game set in the confines of a singular atrocious urban battle.

The Spec Ops example was to make the point that they didn't need history to make a compelling game and that this game does not appear to be that.

thestryker wrote on May 31, 2023, 14:33:
I've never understood why anyone would want to make a game about Fallujah. It would be like playing a game set in 1993 Mogadishu. Terrible combat which didn't need to happen caused by inept leadership that damaged both sides badly along with civilians. Something with a wider focus could work just as effectively from a gameplay and storytelling perspective.

With Spec Ops The Line they were able to tell a powerful story without dragging real history into it. I think it's unfortunate that we haven't seen more combat games that tell stories focused on people. A replayability focused procedurally generated coop shooter is not what comes to mind when I think of storytelling though.

I will never, ever subscribe to this logic. A battle such as this would not be off limits for a book or a movie. But someone wants to make a game about it, them all of a sudden it's off limits. People largely treat movies and books as entertainment , yet allow for thoughtful and nuanced explorations of actual tragic events constantly. It's almost like people accept that those mediums can handle the subject with enough care and dedication to an honest portrayal that it isn't an immediate no-go. Yet we'll lose our shit about games because we have a singular, wrongheaded view that we have to absolutely enjoy and consume without any thought or maturity.
That's not to say that it looks like they are being mature and careful with the portrayal of this particular game, but to declare it off limits for a game is narrow-minded and wrong-headed in my opinion. How many movies were made about 9/11?

I've never understood why anyone would want to make a game about Fallujah. It would be like playing a game set in 1993 Mogadishu. Terrible combat which didn't need to happen caused by inept leadership that damaged both sides badly along with civilians. Something with a wider focus could work just as effectively from a gameplay and storytelling perspective.

With Spec Ops The Line they were able to tell a powerful story without dragging real history into it. I think it's unfortunate that we haven't seen more combat games that tell stories focused on people. A replayability focused procedurally generated coop shooter is not what comes to mind when I think of storytelling though.

I’d rather play “A Friend Fire Incident - Fallujah 2004”. You can choose to play as marines in dress uniform who show up to tell loved ones a lie, or the parents who fight for decades to get the truth out of the US government.

It was the worst Marine-on-Marine friendly fire incident in modern history. But it's not in the history books. An explosion in Fallujah, Iraq left three dead, a dozen wounded, and – for high-ranking officials – a dilemma. So, why were the families of the deceased lied to? Why did the reports mysteriously disappear? And why do survivors still have to wonder about what happened on the worst day of their lives? Taking Cover, an NPR investigative series from the Embedded podcast, isn't just a show about unraveling blue-on-blue tragedy during the Iraq war. It's about what happens when we send our young to war. It's a story of betrayal, brotherhood, and what's owed – to families, the wounded and to the American public.

https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510368/taking-cover

Glad Blue provided a synopsis, as I was thinking "Didn't this come out a decade ago?"

Prez wrote on May 31, 2023, 12:15:
I know this will be a mess of controversy. It has been every time it has been mentioned thus far. I am just interested if it's a good game and not a cynical cash grab and portrays all involved parties accurately and fairly. If it's just another "America! Fuck yeah!!!" type game that portrays the adversary as faceless evil people then they can fuck off. I am looking for a modern day 'Spec Ops the Line.'

I'd love another like Spec Ops: The Line but, sadly, I don't think we'll see it for exactly the reason you mentioned. Few people want to play a nuanced, accurate sim. They wanna be the hatefuck lovechild of GI Joe and Rambo.

I know this will be a mess of controversy. It has been every time it has been mentioned thus far. I am just interested if it's a good game and not a cynical cash grab and portrays all involved parties accurately and fairly. If it's just another "America! Fuck yeah!!!" type game that portrays the adversary as faceless evil people then they can fuck off. I am looking for a modern day 'Spec Ops the Line.'