RedEye9 wrote on May 23, 2023, 12:12:
Did anyone see the JayzTwoCents 4060ti review he took down, Or have a link to it? As the younger generation will come to learn - ze Internet never forgets.
My response to our failed 4060Ti video

Gamers Nexus trashes it

I didn't see it before it was taken down, but kudos to Jay for fessing up to it. He had to let a couple of guys from his shop do the review while he's home recovering from surgery, and he sounds like shit in that apology video.

However, Jay has earned such respect over the years that most of the comments for the video were very supportive.

thestryker wrote on May 23, 2023, 16:54:
It's only 15% at 1080p though...

And it's only 15% in a few games. Most of the time it's much lower, even approaching a margin of error, and sometimes it's even slower than the 3060ti.

I started watching the review after watching the review by Hardware Unboxed (so I knew the card was meh) and stopped watching halfway through. They kept comparing the 4060ti to the 2060 and how it was much faster and ignored that the 4060ti was only 8% faster or equal to the 3060ti for the same money.

Jayz2cents didnt do the review himself because he's recovering from an operation so his 2 team members did the review.

My guess is they took the Nvidia review guide a little bit too litteral and didn't notice the bad value.

My feeling is that it was an honest mistake.

thestryker wrote on May 23, 2023, 22:43:
Whereas being in the console market has turned out to be very beneficial to AMD.

As I said, I'm not even sure it has been that beneficial to AMD. Right now it is, yes, because any income (even low margin one) is better than no income. But in the ~2019 - 2022 timeframe? Nope. Not likely.

During the mining and CoVid craze, AMD could have used every single wafer to sell more GPUs (mining, datacenter) and CPUs (datacenter, PCs, laptops which were in high demand due to CoVid) for much higher margins. Without being held down by the allocation of console SoC wafers, AMD could have likely made (more of) a killing.

This situation already has and it will get better over time for AMD because the console SoCs are made on 7nm while most of the CPU/APU/GPU stuff has moved on to 5nm but if a PS5 Pro or XSX Pro moves on to 5nm then AMD is back to being constrained by their console contracts as soon as the economy recovers and as soon as TSMC capacities go back to being a scarce resource. Fulfilling the console contracts is non-negotiable so AMD always loses out on potential high margin contingents.

The console contracts are great when the chip economy is shitty like right now but they are a liability and a handicap when everyone is fighting over TSMC's tight capacities. You don't want to be forced to produce low margin console SoCs when the actual party is happening in other areas.
I'm sure that nVidia is glad they can 100% focus on the high margin stuff and business is currently going exceptionally well for them in the AI datacenter business (which more than makes up for the slump in consumer GPUs).

RogueSix wrote on May 23, 2023, 18:52:

thestryker wrote on May 23, 2023, 18:04:
It's disingenuous to compare a chip from 2015 which nv inevitably makes tiny margins on to those found in PS/XB.

That being said I don't really think they care about the console market given the limited margin possibilities due to longevity of generations.

Welp, you nVidia haters need to make up your minds: Is nVidia pissed that they did not get the tiny margin PS5/Xbox business or are they greedy margin-above-all assholes?

I'm also not sure if it's "disingenuous" to state (inconvenient for you haters) facts. Do I have to apologize because someone claimed that all console business belongs to AMD when that is simply factually wrong?

Besides, I'm very sure that nVidia is many things but not pissed. TSMC has limited capacities and capabilities which were even more limited during the whole mining and CoVid era. nVidia is a huge customer of TSMC but I would bet real money that Huang went "striiiiiiiiiiiiiike" like Al Bundy multiple times over the past few years when he was able to allocate ALL of nVidia's capacity down to the last wafer to high margin areas like datacenter, AI and mining without being hampered by pesky low margin console deals with obligatory delivery contracts.

Before someone points out a contradiction because of the Switch and Tegra stuff: The Tegra X1 is manufactured on 16nm to 20nm nodes. It does not cut into nVidia's high margin capacities on leading edge nodes at all. It's a separate thing entirely.

I'm also very sure that between 2019 and 2022 AMD wasn't happy about their console contracts either because they could have built and sold so many more Ryzens and Epycs and GPUs instead of being forced to allocate precious wafer resources for low margin console crap SoCs while consoles sold (or got built, respectively) slower than molasses because of other external factors like CoVid lockdowns, missing substrates, supply chain shortages, yada, yada... it was a burden and a liability for AMD and nothing else.

Things are a little different now that the consumer CPU business has collapsed massively. AMD's client CPU (Ryzen) business has nosedived by 65% YoY while gaming (consoles) kinda saved their asses. Well, AMD still made a loss in Q1/2023 but without consoles the loss would have been even higher.

I'm not sure why you felt the need to rant, because I literally said I don't think nvidia cares about the console market. I was just pointing out that being in the switch doesn't mean anything to them. Whereas being in the console market has turned out to be very beneficial to AMD.

welp forget what i said last week. if you can at all afford it and don't care about RT, get a 6800xt. best card you can buy for $500.

it should be criminal that they're charging more for a card with a worse memory system than a 3060 12gb.

AMD really needs to come out with a 7800xt for $550 though. that would entirely annihilate the enthusiast market and embarrass nvidia.

jdreyer wrote on May 23, 2023, 17:06:
Weren't there $200 cards several years ago with 8GB of RAM?

Not sure about $200, but the GTX1070 I bought when they came out six years ago was an 8gb card that released at the same price as the 4060ti.

If you're not pushing resolutions higher than 1080p and/or using RTX, I don't think it actually matters that much for anything that's out now. Hard to say if that stays true as UE5 games begin to roll out, though... if it actually starts getting implemented regularly, DLSS3+framegen might make enough of a difference performance-wise that these cards stay relevant for a fair amount of time even at 8gb of VRAM. It's just as likely that these become the black sheep of Nvidia's already rocky 4000 gen cards and they skip to something that solves that problem as quick as they can, though, especially if these have trouble selling after today's Chernobyl-esque glowing reception.

thestryker wrote on May 23, 2023, 18:04:
It's disingenuous to compare a chip from 2015 which nv inevitably makes tiny margins on to those found in PS/XB.

That being said I don't really think they care about the console market given the limited margin possibilities due to longevity of generations.

Welp, you nVidia haters need to make up your minds: Is nVidia pissed that they did not get the tiny margin PS5/Xbox business or are they greedy margin-above-all assholes?

I'm also not sure if it's "disingenuous" to state (inconvenient for you haters) facts. Do I have to apologize because someone claimed that all console business belongs to AMD when that is simply factually wrong?

Besides, I'm very sure that nVidia is many things but not pissed. TSMC has limited capacities and capabilities which were even more limited during the whole mining and CoVid era. nVidia is a huge customer of TSMC but I would bet real money that Huang went "striiiiiiiiiiiiiike" like Al Bundy multiple times over the past few years when he was able to allocate ALL of nVidia's capacity down to the last wafer to high margin areas like datacenter, AI and mining without being hampered by pesky low margin console deals with obligatory delivery contracts.

Before someone points out a contradiction because of the Switch and Tegra stuff: The Tegra X1 is manufactured on 16nm to 20nm nodes. It does not cut into nVidia's high margin capacities on leading edge nodes at all. It's a separate thing entirely.

I'm also very sure that between 2019 and 2022 AMD wasn't happy about their console contracts either because they could have built and sold so many more Ryzens and Epycs and GPUs instead of being forced to allocate precious wafer resources for low margin console crap SoCs while consoles sold (or got built, respectively) slower than molasses because of other external factors like CoVid lockdowns, missing substrates, supply chain shortages, yada, yada... it was a burden and a liability for AMD and nothing else.

Things are a little different now that the consumer CPU business has collapsed massively. AMD's client CPU (Ryzen) business has nosedived by 65% YoY while gaming (consoles) kinda saved their asses. Well, AMD still made a loss in Q1/2023 but without consoles the loss would have been even higher.

RogueSix wrote on May 23, 2023, 17:40:

jdreyer wrote on May 23, 2023, 17:13:

theglaze wrote on May 23, 2023, 12:28:
TechSpot:

There is speculation that Nvidia had initially planned only to release the RTX 4060 Ti with 8GB, but after backlash from the gaming community and issues arising with recently released games on 8GB cards, it seems they reconsidered. In discussions with Nvidia, they attempted to justify their decision, stating that most gamers own 8GB cards and thus developers need to cater to these users. However, this argument falls short when considering the future of gaming and the increased demand for higher VRAM capacities from developers to provide a premium gaming experience.

Wow, that's incredulous. 'Gamers only have 8GB cards that we've forced into the market, therefore, change your game design and artwork to fit into our artificial limitation'

They are still pissed that AMD got all the console business.

Except they didn't.

Over 125 million Switches were sold. Every single one with nVidia Tegra on board.

It's disingenuous to compare a chip from 2015 which nv inevitably makes tiny margins on to those found in PS/XB.

That being said I don't really think they care about the console market given the limited margin possibilities due to longevity of generations.

Steele Johnson wrote on May 23, 2023, 17:36:
1080p gaming for all! NVIDIA is so cool when they go retro!

Right? My res has been 3440x1440 for...Uh...*calculates in head* almost ten years? I'd do 4K, but I really love the ultra-wide format for PC gaming.

jdreyer wrote on May 23, 2023, 17:13:

theglaze wrote on May 23, 2023, 12:28:
TechSpot:

There is speculation that Nvidia had initially planned only to release the RTX 4060 Ti with 8GB, but after backlash from the gaming community and issues arising with recently released games on 8GB cards, it seems they reconsidered. In discussions with Nvidia, they attempted to justify their decision, stating that most gamers own 8GB cards and thus developers need to cater to these users. However, this argument falls short when considering the future of gaming and the increased demand for higher VRAM capacities from developers to provide a premium gaming experience.

Wow, that's incredulous. 'Gamers only have 8GB cards that we've forced into the market, therefore, change your game design and artwork to fit into our artificial limitation'

They are still pissed that AMD got all the console business.

Except they didn't.

Over 125 million Switches were sold. Every single one with nVidia Tegra on board.

1080p gaming for all! NVIDIA is so cool when they go retro!

Still rocking the 2070 super now. All the 4K games are being played on my $500 PS5 that I don't have to tweak to get to run well. Jedi Survivor, Hogwarts, Diablo IV...I like the NVidia stuff like DLSS, but I used to shell out $500 for a high-mid tier card like the 70s. Now they want almost double to make up for the loss of all that sweet, sweet crypto-mining money. Sorry, drop the price or no sale. You want to sell the 90s at $1k? Sure, it's an enthusiast card series. The 80s at $800? Sure, still limited market at enthusiast levels. But 4080s for $1200? Go butter your butthole and stick it.

YES, I know 4070s are $600 now. The SHITTY version. The TI costs $800 - 900 bucks.

phinn wrote on May 23, 2023, 14:39:

Burrito of Peace wrote on May 23, 2023, 13:22:
Nvidia is arrogant, film at 11.

I read upcoming AMD cards are also 8GB in similar price points as these so not sure what to think. Can't help but think the VRAM concern is overblown at lower resolutions. Although it's amusing to see the 3070 is faster than the 4060Ti.

Nothing wrong with 8GB, for $250. The Radeon RX 480 debuted with 8GB for $240 in 2016.

theglaze wrote on May 23, 2023, 12:28:
TechSpot:

There is speculation that Nvidia had initially planned only to release the RTX 4060 Ti with 8GB, but after backlash from the gaming community and issues arising with recently released games on 8GB cards, it seems they reconsidered. In discussions with Nvidia, they attempted to justify their decision, stating that most gamers own 8GB cards and thus developers need to cater to these users. However, this argument falls short when considering the future of gaming and the increased demand for higher VRAM capacities from developers to provide a premium gaming experience.

Wow, that's incredulous. 'Gamers only have 8GB cards that we've forced into the market, therefore, change your game design and artwork to fit into our artificial limitation'

They are still pissed that AMD got all the console business.

theglaze wrote on May 23, 2023, 12:28:
TechSpot:

There is speculation that Nvidia had initially planned only to release the RTX 4060 Ti with 8GB, but after backlash from the gaming community and issues arising with recently released games on 8GB cards, it seems they reconsidered. In discussions with Nvidia, they attempted to justify their decision, stating that most gamers own 8GB cards and thus developers need to cater to these users. However, this argument falls short when considering the future of gaming and the increased demand for higher VRAM capacities from developers to provide a premium gaming experience.

Wow, that's incredulous. 'Gamers only have 8GB cards that we've forced into the market, therefore, change your game design and artwork to fit into our artificial limitation'

"640K ought to be enough for anybody," Bill Gates, supposedly.

Weren't there $200 cards several years ago with 8GB of RAM?

The whole 40xx line up seems like shit to me. I can get 16GB of vRAM, but with a weak GPU and only on a 128 bit bus (4060ti). Or i can get a decent GPU that will handle my 1440p ultrawide monitor, but max 12GB of RAM on a 192 bit bus (worse than my current 1080ti). Or I can get 16GB of vRAM and a good GPU in the 4080 with a decent memory bus, for $1200.

Fun fact: the 4060 has about the same number of cores as my 1080ti.

Beamer wrote on May 23, 2023, 13:59:

Saboth wrote on May 23, 2023, 12:22:
I remember when the 60s were the great value/performance cards. $400 for 1080 is ridiculous. The performance is barely above last gen. As someone with a 3070, I basically have to jump up to 4070 ti or 7900 xt to get any worthwhile performance, but going from $400-$450 mid tier cards to $800 in just a few years just isn't something I care to do.

15% is decent for the same money.
Personally, I think I'd be tempted into a 16GB Arc 770 for 80% the price, but that's more because I'm an annoying contrarian. This would work better in nearly all cases and have far fewer compatibility issues, but being able to say I have an Arc sounds fun.

It's only 15% at 1080p though, and starts losing ground as you raise resolution. For $400 it should really be a 1440p card, but due to the crunched memory bus and less cache than it's higher end 40 series brethren it very much isn't.

I'm much the same as you though and would love to have Intel Arc. All of my systems are pre-rebar support though so it simply isn't an option. They recently dropped the A750 to $200, unsure if permanent, which makes it by far the best choice at its performance level so long as you can deal with the drawbacks.

RedEye9 wrote on May 23, 2023, 12:12:
Did anyone see the JayzTwoCents 4060ti review he took down, Or have a link to it? As the younger generation will come to learn - ze Internet never forgets.
My response to our failed 4060Ti video

Gamers Nexus trashes it

Preach it tech-Jesus!

nVidia simply stated a fact, and of course it is up to developers to optimize games for a broad range of system configurations when releasing a game on PC, while considering "what [user hardware] is predominantly out there?". It is not nVidia's fault that devs and publishers have gotten increasingly lazy when it comes to PC ports.
That's the fault of gamers who keep buying/preordering broken PC ports by the millions. Release now, fix (maybe) later is a valid business strategy given this consumer behavior. I wouldn't do it any other way either if I were a publisher head honcho.

Also, if anyone does not like this: Buy AMD. They can use every sale they can get.