But it’s cool that Twitter pushes hate speech and extremist content into ‘For You’ pages… I guess, because it’s American? https://wapo.st/40Xov3T

Beamer wrote on Apr 1, 2023, 14:30:
You're really frustrating.
I repeatedly say the algorithms are the true problem. You ignore that and call me insane.

I also say the difference is that the Chinese government has heavy influence over the TikTok algorithm, and that their motivations can rightfully be questioned.

At this point, I don't think you have a clue what is being discussed, and you just want to call names and be angry at something being banned.

May I suggest you go play a rousing game of lawn darts? Or do some heroin? Since banning things is bad. Freedom and capitalism!

Such a compelling argument. LOL

I did not call you insane, unless you self-identify as your argument.

Lawn darts were banned because pointy things stab people to death. See, that is called a reason for banning something.

fujiJuice wrote on Mar 31, 2023, 18:03:

FloodAnxiety wrote on Mar 31, 2023, 14:22:
"offer a counter to it". You seem to think in terms of controlling people, rather than people controlling what they consume with the choices they make. I do not choose to watch Fox News, because it is blatantly corrupt.

Like I said before, it is real simple, if this isn't about fearmongering, then they can point to facts and pass laws that will apply to all media companies equally. Fearmongering in order to pass a law to give a branch of the government near unfettered control is the path to authoritarianism. You sir, may have fallen into an echo chamber of fear if you are on the side of banning a company for no reason other than FUD.

Perhaps we just treat all threats to national security the same...

You are acting as if China is a good faith participant on the world stage. Everything they do (as a nation) should be treated as if it is a current or future threat. In my opinion if you do not feel that way then you haven't been paying attention to their activities.

Once they open up their own country then they can get unfettered access to other markets. How about that?

You haven't given a reason why China should just be trusted.

You are acting like China runs TikTok. If I understand correctly, TikTok is a private company, and like most private companies, there is a board. And I believe China has a single seat on that board. Your hypothesis is that this single seat gives China the control they need to convince the rest of the bytedance board to run TikTok like a spy agency?

Rather than ask for evidence to support your hypothesis (that I won't receive), I'm going to suggest to you that you articulate what you fear they are going to do with TikTok. Explain what is the potential harm that you are afraid the Chinese Government will inflict upon the United States via TikTok? If you are able to articulate it, then I propose we find a solution that addresses that fear and apply it equally to all social media companies and/or all governments (especially our own).

FloodAnxiety wrote on Apr 1, 2023, 14:27:

Beamer wrote on Mar 31, 2023, 14:45:

Mr. Tact wrote on Mar 31, 2023, 14:41:
So, it is okay for every American company to track the living shit out of us, but if someone outside the US is going to do, that is when we need to be concerned? Got it. I'm being somewhat sarcastic -- basically any app capable of tracking the device should not be allowed on a government owned device unless it has been vetted. But if idiot Americans wants to give up their information, who are we to stop them?

I don't quite think this is "much ado about nothing", there is a very small kernel of legitimate concern -- but the coverage has blown things way out of proportion.

Again, I don't pay attention to coverage, and read my edit.

Like I've said a few times on this topic - my issue is never privacy, but the algorithms, and how algorithms have radicalized and divided. Meta does this. YouTube does this. Twitter does this. Virtually all social media does this.

The difference with TikTok is that TikTok is significantly more used and influential amongst teenagers and people under 24, to a degree I think many here really underestimate (your average HSer spends more time on TikTok than all other social outlets combined), that there's actually even less oversight, and that China has ownership and the one thing I trust less than corporations looking to make a buck is a foreign government looking to make a buck.

I think the root cause is the algorithms, and I think we need a solution for them. But, in the short term, TikTok is much more detrimental to us than the others are due to scale and ownership. Scope does matter. People accuse Twitter or Facebook of having a bias against Trump for banning him for doing something that a random account with 5 followers also does, without considering that the scale and scope matter as much as the crime. Someone with 50 million followers is of course going to be banned before someone with 5 followers. Same applies to TikTok. It's the 50 million followers compared to Facebook's, I dunno, 500,000.

I'm baffled. This is legit an insane argument. You acknowledge that TikTok is not unique, except with respect to their popularity, and then argue that their popularity is the reason why they need to be singled out and banned.

I mean, if you don't see how insane that is... I'm not sure what I can say. Normally, I would be trying to get you to admit to those points, in the hopes that you would see how hypocritical that position is. But you just flat out said it.

Where does one even start with a person so hopeless that they will spell out their bias in front of you and make an argument, "it is popular, therefore we should ban it". That has literally never been, and will literally never be, a valid argument for banning anything.

You're really frustrating.
I repeatedly say the algorithms are the true problem. You ignore that and call me insane.

I also say the difference is that the Chinese government has heavy influence over the TikTok algorithm, and that their motivations can rightfully be questioned.

At this point, I don't think you have a clue what is being discussed, and you just want to call names and be angry at something being banned.

May I suggest you go play a rousing game of lawn darts? Or do some heroin? Since banning things is bad. Freedom and capitalism!

FloodAnxiety wrote on Apr 1, 2023, 14:09:

Beamer wrote on Mar 31, 2023, 14:40:

FloodAnxiety wrote on Mar 31, 2023, 14:22:

Beamer wrote on Mar 30, 2023, 16:13:

FloodAnxiety wrote on Mar 30, 2023, 13:45:

China's involvement in TikTok is massively overhyped due to typical political fearmongering.

Are you sure about that?
I've spent a lot of time with TikTok. I've been to their headquarters, I've been out to dinners with their leadership, I was just with them earlier this week, etc., and I'm not convinced at all that it's massively overhyped.

At the very least, there's an algorithm serving news and information to Americans under 24 without us knowing what or how. The average American under 24 spends somewhere between 75 and 95 minutes a day on TikTok - more than they spend watching TV. Would you have been ok with China buying ABC, or CNN, or the NYT, and now controlling the news, except without anyone seeing what they're broadcasting and being able to offer a counter to it?

"offer a counter to it". You seem to think in terms of controlling people, rather than people controlling what they consume with the choices they make. I do not choose to watch Fox News, because it is blatantly corrupt.

Like I said before, it is real simple, if this isn't about fearmongering, then they can point to facts and pass laws that will apply to all media companies equally. Fearmongering in order to pass a law to give a branch of the government near unfettered control is the path to authoritarianism. You sir, may have fallen into an echo chamber of fear if you are on the side of banning a company for no reason other than FUD.

There are counters to Fox News, though. You can go many other places and get different news biases. There are literal substitutes.
That is not true for TikTok.

I really don't think you understand how it's used. Are you a user of it, currently? Do you talk to people that use it? Regularly?

The government controls what we consume, very literally. Can you still buy Coca-Cola with cocaine? Does 7-Up still have lithium? No. More importantly, for things they do not control, they still mandate we have the full information on what is in it. None of this is true for TikTok.

Sorry, buck-o, I also am not "brainwashed" or "mind-controlled," though I find it interesting that you accuse me of such since that's what I'm concerned about TikTok facilitating. I have not read articles or think pieces on this. I am, instead, extremely familiar with TikTok as a product and as an organization. Again, I've spent hours upon hours with their executives and in their headquarters. My opinion comes not from what I've heard or read, but from what I personally know of the organization and its influence on young Americans.

I guess I'll end with a question - have you paid attention to the Jordan Petersons or Andrew Tates of the world? Do you know how they've built a following? Do you know how many young men have gone from reasonable and rational thinkers to completely radicalized by morons such as those two? Do you not see how algorithms mostly fueled that, and how someone could rig the algorithm to spread the influence of people like that to audiences they know are more susceptible? Because TikTok knows are kids better than Facebook does, and while Facebook is a heaping pile of garbage, it has exponentially less influence on our youth, more oversight, and isn't run by a country that considers itself to be in a race against us.

Your obsession with "counters" is frankly a little weird. It is more than a little creepy the way you talk about people. If you are so extremely familiar with TikTok, explain what evidence there is that they are doing something illegal? This is all I have been asking for, because when you fail to provide it, then my point is proven. Let me say that again. When you fail to provide support for your argument, then your argument is bad. Saying "the government controls other things already" as if that is an argument for them banning TikTok is silly because it ignores the fact that there may be REASONS for those other things. So give me the reason why TikTok and not others need to be banned.

Why do you think Jordan Petersons or Andrew Tates is a problem exclusive to TikTok? Why target TikTok specifically when you know those problems aren't specific to TikTok?

What you seem to fail to understand, is that people make the choice to use an app. Often times, that choice is because of how well they find the algorithm works for them. If the algorithm feeds them stuff they don't want, they are likely not going to come back. Now, what do you think happens if a government manipulates the algorithm to show people something they don't want? You seem to think that they will be like "oh, I actually wanted this after all, thank you for brain washing me". No, people will be like "wtf is the algorithm shit lately. Keeps giving me stupid propaganda. If it keeps up I'll ditch this platform.". So what is the concern really? And does your concern have any evidence to back it up? And is the evidence about TikTok and not some other social media app?

1) it doesn't need to be illegal to be banned.

2) "Counters" seem to be a concept you misunderstand.

3) I didn't say it was exclusive to TikTok. In fact, I repeatedly say the opposite


Listen, if you're both going to repeatedly misunderstand or misrepresent what I say, and if you can't see why China almost exclusively controlling the information our youth consumes, this is a pointless discussion

Beamer wrote on Mar 31, 2023, 14:45:

Mr. Tact wrote on Mar 31, 2023, 14:41:
So, it is okay for every American company to track the living shit out of us, but if someone outside the US is going to do, that is when we need to be concerned? Got it. I'm being somewhat sarcastic -- basically any app capable of tracking the device should not be allowed on a government owned device unless it has been vetted. But if idiot Americans wants to give up their information, who are we to stop them?

I don't quite think this is "much ado about nothing", there is a very small kernel of legitimate concern -- but the coverage has blown things way out of proportion.

Again, I don't pay attention to coverage, and read my edit.

Like I've said a few times on this topic - my issue is never privacy, but the algorithms, and how algorithms have radicalized and divided. Meta does this. YouTube does this. Twitter does this. Virtually all social media does this.

The difference with TikTok is that TikTok is significantly more used and influential amongst teenagers and people under 24, to a degree I think many here really underestimate (your average HSer spends more time on TikTok than all other social outlets combined), that there's actually even less oversight, and that China has ownership and the one thing I trust less than corporations looking to make a buck is a foreign government looking to make a buck.

I think the root cause is the algorithms, and I think we need a solution for them. But, in the short term, TikTok is much more detrimental to us than the others are due to scale and ownership. Scope does matter. People accuse Twitter or Facebook of having a bias against Trump for banning him for doing something that a random account with 5 followers also does, without considering that the scale and scope matter as much as the crime. Someone with 50 million followers is of course going to be banned before someone with 5 followers. Same applies to TikTok. It's the 50 million followers compared to Facebook's, I dunno, 500,000.

I'm baffled. This is legit an insane argument. You acknowledge that TikTok is not unique, except with respect to their popularity, and then argue that their popularity is the reason why they need to be singled out and banned.

I mean, if you don't see how insane that is... I'm not sure what I can say. Normally, I would be trying to get you to admit to those points, in the hopes that you would see how hypocritical that position is. But you just flat out said it.

Where does one even start with a person so hopeless that they will spell out their bias in front of you and make an argument, "it is popular, therefore we should ban it". That has literally never been, and will literally never be, a valid argument for banning anything.

Beamer wrote on Mar 31, 2023, 14:40:

FloodAnxiety wrote on Mar 31, 2023, 14:22:

Beamer wrote on Mar 30, 2023, 16:13:

FloodAnxiety wrote on Mar 30, 2023, 13:45:

China's involvement in TikTok is massively overhyped due to typical political fearmongering.

Are you sure about that?
I've spent a lot of time with TikTok. I've been to their headquarters, I've been out to dinners with their leadership, I was just with them earlier this week, etc., and I'm not convinced at all that it's massively overhyped.

At the very least, there's an algorithm serving news and information to Americans under 24 without us knowing what or how. The average American under 24 spends somewhere between 75 and 95 minutes a day on TikTok - more than they spend watching TV. Would you have been ok with China buying ABC, or CNN, or the NYT, and now controlling the news, except without anyone seeing what they're broadcasting and being able to offer a counter to it?

"offer a counter to it". You seem to think in terms of controlling people, rather than people controlling what they consume with the choices they make. I do not choose to watch Fox News, because it is blatantly corrupt.

Like I said before, it is real simple, if this isn't about fearmongering, then they can point to facts and pass laws that will apply to all media companies equally. Fearmongering in order to pass a law to give a branch of the government near unfettered control is the path to authoritarianism. You sir, may have fallen into an echo chamber of fear if you are on the side of banning a company for no reason other than FUD.

There are counters to Fox News, though. You can go many other places and get different news biases. There are literal substitutes.
That is not true for TikTok.

I really don't think you understand how it's used. Are you a user of it, currently? Do you talk to people that use it? Regularly?

The government controls what we consume, very literally. Can you still buy Coca-Cola with cocaine? Does 7-Up still have lithium? No. More importantly, for things they do not control, they still mandate we have the full information on what is in it. None of this is true for TikTok.

Sorry, buck-o, I also am not "brainwashed" or "mind-controlled," though I find it interesting that you accuse me of such since that's what I'm concerned about TikTok facilitating. I have not read articles or think pieces on this. I am, instead, extremely familiar with TikTok as a product and as an organization. Again, I've spent hours upon hours with their executives and in their headquarters. My opinion comes not from what I've heard or read, but from what I personally know of the organization and its influence on young Americans.

I guess I'll end with a question - have you paid attention to the Jordan Petersons or Andrew Tates of the world? Do you know how they've built a following? Do you know how many young men have gone from reasonable and rational thinkers to completely radicalized by morons such as those two? Do you not see how algorithms mostly fueled that, and how someone could rig the algorithm to spread the influence of people like that to audiences they know are more susceptible? Because TikTok knows are kids better than Facebook does, and while Facebook is a heaping pile of garbage, it has exponentially less influence on our youth, more oversight, and isn't run by a country that considers itself to be in a race against us.

Your obsession with "counters" is frankly a little weird. It is more than a little creepy the way you talk about people. If you are so extremely familiar with TikTok, explain what evidence there is that they are doing something illegal? This is all I have been asking for, because when you fail to provide it, then my point is proven. Let me say that again. When you fail to provide support for your argument, then your argument is bad. Saying "the government controls other things already" as if that is an argument for them banning TikTok is silly because it ignores the fact that there may be REASONS for those other things. So give me the reason why TikTok and not others need to be banned.

Why do you think Jordan Petersons or Andrew Tates is a problem exclusive to TikTok? Why target TikTok specifically when you know those problems aren't specific to TikTok?

What you seem to fail to understand, is that people make the choice to use an app. Often times, that choice is because of how well they find the algorithm works for them. If the algorithm feeds them stuff they don't want, they are likely not going to come back. Now, what do you think happens if a government manipulates the algorithm to show people something they don't want? You seem to think that they will be like "oh, I actually wanted this after all, thank you for brain washing me". No, people will be like "wtf is the algorithm shit lately. Keeps giving me stupid propaganda. If it keeps up I'll ditch this platform.". So what is the concern really? And does your concern have any evidence to back it up? And is the evidence about TikTok and not some other social media app?

FloodAnxiety wrote on Mar 31, 2023, 14:22:
"offer a counter to it". You seem to think in terms of controlling people, rather than people controlling what they consume with the choices they make. I do not choose to watch Fox News, because it is blatantly corrupt.

Like I said before, it is real simple, if this isn't about fearmongering, then they can point to facts and pass laws that will apply to all media companies equally. Fearmongering in order to pass a law to give a branch of the government near unfettered control is the path to authoritarianism. You sir, may have fallen into an echo chamber of fear if you are on the side of banning a company for no reason other than FUD.

Perhaps we just treat all threats to national security the same...

You are acting as if China is a good faith participant on the world stage. Everything they do (as a nation) should be treated as if it is a current or future threat. In my opinion if you do not feel that way then you haven't been paying attention to their activities.

Once they open up their own country then they can get unfettered access to other markets. How about that?

You haven't given a reason why China should just be trusted.

Mr. Tact wrote on Mar 31, 2023, 15:35:
Beamer is any politician arguing your position? ie.. the reason to ban them is the influence they do or can have, not they will give the data to China?

The idiots have always been there, it is just that modern technology has given people the ability to reach them easily. Which I would agree is a problem. But I think it is a "the cat is out of the bag", "the horse is out of the barn" problem. Even if Tiktok was banned, ignoring the fact VPNs will solve that issue, those idiots will find someone to lead them astray anyway. Whether is 4chan, social truth, whatever.... said it before, and I'll say it again now -- I am very glad I am 60 and not 20, because things are not going to get better soon.

Yup. "They are also worried that China could use TikTok’s content recommendations for misinformation"
https://archive.is/Ktbjj (NYT)

But not many. Keep in mind, The idiots overseeing this were the ones asking if it could use WiFi.

Chinese use of data has been a concern before. But they could learn a lot more from Grindr than TikTok.

I think algorithms in social media have proven very destructive as a whole. If anyone has a kid, ask them to see their TikTok FYP. Open the app new, then scroll through 10 or 20 videos. I think you'd be surprised.

If TikTok disappears, the kids will all flock to instagram, or something new. I just think it's slightly better to have an algorithm greedily giving misinformation than one intention. But only mildly so.

Beamer is any politician arguing your position? ie.. the reason to ban them is the influence they do or can have, not they will give the data to China?

The idiots have always been there, it is just that modern technology has given people the ability to reach them easily. Which I would agree is a problem. But I think it is a "the cat is out of the bag", "the horse is out of the barn" problem. Even if Tiktok was banned, ignoring the fact VPNs will solve that issue, those idiots will find someone to lead them astray anyway. Whether is 4chan, social truth, whatever.... said it before, and I'll say it again now -- I am very glad I am 60 and not 20, because things are not going to get better soon.

Mr. Tact wrote on Mar 31, 2023, 14:41:
So, it is okay for every American company to track the living shit out of us, but if someone outside the US is going to do, that is when we need to be concerned? Got it. I'm being somewhat sarcastic -- basically any app capable of tracking the device should not be allowed on a government owned device unless it has been vetted. But if idiot Americans wants to give up their information, who are we to stop them?

I don't quite think this is "much ado about nothing", there is a very small kernel of legitimate concern -- but the coverage has blown things way out of proportion.

Again, I don't pay attention to coverage, and read my edit.

Like I've said a few times on this topic - my issue is never privacy, but the algorithms, and how algorithms have radicalized and divided. Meta does this. YouTube does this. Twitter does this. Virtually all social media does this.

The difference with TikTok is that TikTok is significantly more used and influential amongst teenagers and people under 24, to a degree I think many here really underestimate (your average HSer spends more time on TikTok than all other social outlets combined), that there's actually even less oversight, and that China has ownership and the one thing I trust less than corporations looking to make a buck is a foreign government looking to make a buck.

I think the root cause is the algorithms, and I think we need a solution for them. But, in the short term, TikTok is much more detrimental to us than the others are due to scale and ownership. Scope does matter. People accuse Twitter or Facebook of having a bias against Trump for banning him for doing something that a random account with 5 followers also does, without considering that the scale and scope matter as much as the crime. Someone with 50 million followers is of course going to be banned before someone with 5 followers. Same applies to TikTok. It's the 50 million followers compared to Facebook's, I dunno, 500,000.

So, it is okay for every American company to track the living shit out of us, but if someone outside the US is going to do, that is when we need to be concerned? Got it. I'm being somewhat sarcastic -- basically any app capable of tracking the device should not be allowed on a government owned device unless it has been vetted. But if idiot Americans wants to give up their information, who are we to stop them?

I don't quite think this is "much ado about nothing", there is a very small kernel of legitimate concern -- but the coverage has blown things way out of proportion.

FloodAnxiety wrote on Mar 31, 2023, 14:22:

Beamer wrote on Mar 30, 2023, 16:13:

FloodAnxiety wrote on Mar 30, 2023, 13:45:

China's involvement in TikTok is massively overhyped due to typical political fearmongering.

Are you sure about that?
I've spent a lot of time with TikTok. I've been to their headquarters, I've been out to dinners with their leadership, I was just with them earlier this week, etc., and I'm not convinced at all that it's massively overhyped.

At the very least, there's an algorithm serving news and information to Americans under 24 without us knowing what or how. The average American under 24 spends somewhere between 75 and 95 minutes a day on TikTok - more than they spend watching TV. Would you have been ok with China buying ABC, or CNN, or the NYT, and now controlling the news, except without anyone seeing what they're broadcasting and being able to offer a counter to it?

"offer a counter to it". You seem to think in terms of controlling people, rather than people controlling what they consume with the choices they make. I do not choose to watch Fox News, because it is blatantly corrupt.

Like I said before, it is real simple, if this isn't about fearmongering, then they can point to facts and pass laws that will apply to all media companies equally. Fearmongering in order to pass a law to give a branch of the government near unfettered control is the path to authoritarianism. You sir, may have fallen into an echo chamber of fear if you are on the side of banning a company for no reason other than FUD.

There are counters to Fox News, though. You can go many other places and get different news biases. There are literal substitutes.
That is not true for TikTok.

I really don't think you understand how it's used. Are you a user of it, currently? Do you talk to people that use it? Regularly?

The government controls what we consume, very literally. Can you still buy Coca-Cola with cocaine? Does 7-Up still have lithium? No. More importantly, for things they do not control, they still mandate we have the full information on what is in it. None of this is true for TikTok.

Sorry, buck-o, I also am not "brainwashed" or "mind-controlled," though I find it interesting that you accuse me of such since that's what I'm concerned about TikTok facilitating. I have not read articles or think pieces on this. I am, instead, extremely familiar with TikTok as a product and as an organization. Again, I've spent hours upon hours with their executives and in their headquarters. My opinion comes not from what I've heard or read, but from what I personally know of the organization and its influence on young Americans.

I guess I'll end with a question - have you paid attention to the Jordan Petersons or Andrew Tates of the world? Do you know how they've built a following? Do you know how many young men have gone from reasonable and rational thinkers to completely radicalized by morons such as those two? Do you not see how algorithms mostly fueled that, and how someone could rig the algorithm to spread the influence of people like that to audiences they know are more susceptible? Because TikTok knows are kids better than Facebook does, and while Facebook is a heaping pile of garbage, it has exponentially less influence on our youth, more oversight, and isn't run by a country that considers itself to be in a race against us.

FloodAnxiety wrote on Mar 31, 2023, 14:22:

Beamer wrote on Mar 30, 2023, 16:13:

FloodAnxiety wrote on Mar 30, 2023, 13:45:

China's involvement in TikTok is massively overhyped due to typical political fearmongering.

Are you sure about that?
I've spent a lot of time with TikTok. I've been to their headquarters, I've been out to dinners with their leadership, I was just with them earlier this week, etc., and I'm not convinced at all that it's massively overhyped.

At the very least, there's an algorithm serving news and information to Americans under 24 without us knowing what or how. The average American under 24 spends somewhere between 75 and 95 minutes a day on TikTok - more than they spend watching TV. Would you have been ok with China buying ABC, or CNN, or the NYT, and now controlling the news, except without anyone seeing what they're broadcasting and being able to offer a counter to it?

"offer a counter to it". You seem to think in terms of controlling people, rather than people controlling what they consume with the choices they make. I do not choose to watch Fox News, because it is blatantly corrupt.

Like I said before, it is real simple, if this isn't about fearmongering, then they can point to facts and pass laws that will apply to all media companies equally. Fearmongering in order to pass a law to give a branch of the government near unfettered control is the path to authoritarianism. You sir, may have fallen into an echo chamber of fear if you are on the side of banning a company for no reason other than FUD.

Louis Rossmann (1.76M subscribers) offered his opinion on TikTok and it's worth a watch.
"I was WRONG about banning tiktok - here's why I changed my mind" https://youtu.be/AAZLOygmR78
he was for a ban but is not anymore

Beamer wrote on Mar 30, 2023, 16:13:

FloodAnxiety wrote on Mar 30, 2023, 13:45:

China's involvement in TikTok is massively overhyped due to typical political fearmongering.

Are you sure about that?
I've spent a lot of time with TikTok. I've been to their headquarters, I've been out to dinners with their leadership, I was just with them earlier this week, etc., and I'm not convinced at all that it's massively overhyped.

At the very least, there's an algorithm serving news and information to Americans under 24 without us knowing what or how. The average American under 24 spends somewhere between 75 and 95 minutes a day on TikTok - more than they spend watching TV. Would you have been ok with China buying ABC, or CNN, or the NYT, and now controlling the news, except without anyone seeing what they're broadcasting and being able to offer a counter to it?

"offer a counter to it". You seem to think in terms of controlling people, rather than people controlling what they consume with the choices they make. I do not choose to watch Fox News, because it is blatantly corrupt.

Like I said before, it is real simple, if this isn't about fearmongering, then they can point to facts and pass laws that will apply to all media companies equally. Fearmongering in order to pass a law to give a branch of the government near unfettered control is the path to authoritarianism. You sir, may have fallen into an echo chamber of fear if you are on the side of banning a company for no reason other than FUD.

Beamer wrote on Mar 30, 2023, 16:13:

FloodAnxiety wrote on Mar 30, 2023, 13:45:
China's involvement in TikTok is massively overhyped due to typical political fearmongering.

At the very least, there's an algorithm serving news and information to Americans under 24 without us knowing what or how.

The same can be said for youtube, twitter and facebook.

FloodAnxiety wrote on Mar 30, 2023, 13:45:

China's involvement in TikTok is massively overhyped due to typical political fearmongering.

Are you sure about that?
I've spent a lot of time with TikTok. I've been to their headquarters, I've been out to dinners with their leadership, I was just with them earlier this week, etc., and I'm not convinced at all that it's massively overhyped.

At the very least, there's an algorithm serving news and information to Americans under 24 without us knowing what or how. The average American under 24 spends somewhere between 75 and 95 minutes a day on TikTok - more than they spend watching TV. Would you have been ok with China buying ABC, or CNN, or the NYT, and now controlling the news, except without anyone seeing what they're broadcasting and being able to offer a counter to it?

jdreyer wrote on Mar 26, 2023, 20:56:

FloodAnxiety wrote on Mar 24, 2023, 14:57:

fujiJuice wrote on Mar 24, 2023, 12:31:

Verno wrote on Mar 23, 2023, 15:37:

FloodAnxiety wrote on Mar 23, 2023, 14:59:
Some people are really in support of the government telling them what apps they can and cannot use eh? Or do they just not use it, and are in support of the government preventing other people from having the choice?

Of course, government regulates many things, that's part of its purpose. We cannot trust "the free market" when this app is controlled by a foreign government and can be weaponized against us in the form of theft, manipulation, blackmail or propaganda. It has societal implications and that is why government is involved.

Bingo.

You can learn a lot about someone by tracking their time and location.

You can learn a lot about the internal workings of a building or an entire organization by tracking the times and locations of those in it.

When they want to sell us something based on that information it is invasive and annoying but when a foreign adversary does it is a national security threat.

That is just one concern. It might not even be valid in these circumstances (I don't know what TikTok tracks), I am just saying that it should be at least scrutinized because of reasons we can't even imagine yet.

As jdreyer points out, we are playing by the precedent they established.

So... you don't know anything about the circumstances but you are defending it anyways. Yikes. Thanks for your contribution?

In China, unlike here, the government doesn't need warrants to access any Chinese company's data.
In China, unlike here, companies don't fight the government when asked to release individual's data because they'll be arrested and thrown in jail.
In China, the government for years has had complete access to TikTok's servers.
Social media data can be easily weaponized. China is our chief geopolitical rival.

It is simple. Pass the proper laws and enforce them on all social media platforms equally.

If there is still a concern, try educating the citizens of the concern and let them make the informed choice as to which LEGAL product they choose to use.

This whole "ban tiktok" craze is going to get that restrict act passed and then tiktok's ban will be the least of everyone's problems.

China's involvement in TikTok is massively overhyped due to typical political fearmongering.

So it is very simple. If there is a problem, identify the problem, and pass a law that addresses the problem and enforce that law on all social media platforms. It is really that simple. If you disagree, then please explain why the executive branch needs this crazy new power to ban anything for any reason at any time without even telling us why.

FloodAnxiety wrote on Mar 24, 2023, 14:57:

fujiJuice wrote on Mar 24, 2023, 12:31:

Verno wrote on Mar 23, 2023, 15:37:

FloodAnxiety wrote on Mar 23, 2023, 14:59:
Some people are really in support of the government telling them what apps they can and cannot use eh? Or do they just not use it, and are in support of the government preventing other people from having the choice?

Of course, government regulates many things, that's part of its purpose. We cannot trust "the free market" when this app is controlled by a foreign government and can be weaponized against us in the form of theft, manipulation, blackmail or propaganda. It has societal implications and that is why government is involved.

Bingo.

You can learn a lot about someone by tracking their time and location.

You can learn a lot about the internal workings of a building or an entire organization by tracking the times and locations of those in it.

When they want to sell us something based on that information it is invasive and annoying but when a foreign adversary does it is a national security threat.

That is just one concern. It might not even be valid in these circumstances (I don't know what TikTok tracks), I am just saying that it should be at least scrutinized because of reasons we can't even imagine yet.

As jdreyer points out, we are playing by the precedent they established.

So... you don't know anything about the circumstances but you are defending it anyways. Yikes. Thanks for your contribution?

In China, unlike here, the government doesn't need warrants to access any Chinese company's data.
In China, unlike here, companies don't fight the government when asked to release individual's data because they'll be arrested and thrown in jail.
In China, the government for years has had complete access to TikTok's servers.
Social media data can be easily weaponized. China is our chief geopolitical rival.

FloodAnxiety wrote on Mar 24, 2023, 14:57:

fujiJuice wrote on Mar 24, 2023, 12:31:
That is just one concern. It might not even be valid in these circumstances (I don't know what TikTok tracks), I am just saying that it should be at least scrutinized because of reasons we can't even imagine yet.

As jdreyer points out, we are playing by the precedent they established.

So... you don't know anything about the circumstances but you are defending it anyways. Yikes. Thanks for your contribution?

I was trying to give an example of why you might not want a foreign adversary to have such information about it's citizens. And that seemingly innocuous information can be used for nefarious purposes.

If you trust China enough to not take a closer look at their operations, that is your call. I wish you the best.