Verno wrote on Jan 19, 2023, 11:42:
4 day work weeks are ideal for many industries, you generally get people using their time more effectively and they waste a lot less of it in meetings and email. Better work life balance makes for happier employees and less staff turnover. There are some challenges with coverage and increased staffing costs though. There are also industries where it's a poor fit or just not feasible at all.

The benefits of a 4-day work week for both the employees AND the employers have been proven time and time again in several trials and transitions. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvBs-izBjtQ

Laughing Man wrote on Jan 19, 2023, 15:35:

Beamer wrote on Jan 19, 2023, 15:26:

Laughing Man wrote on Jan 19, 2023, 15:20:

Sepharo wrote on Jan 18, 2023, 16:25:

Laughing Man wrote on Jan 18, 2023, 15:56:

RogueSix wrote on Jan 18, 2023, 10:50:

Laughing Man wrote on Jan 18, 2023, 10:44:
We installed cameras at our work site because of employees complaining about work and we found they actually spent hours of the day not even working. After firing those employees' productivity increased and we started working less hours.

Employees are usually their own worst enemies.

Must be in the USA?

If you would even begin to propose installing cameras for work supervision here in Germany, well, I hope you have made your last will .

No privacy here.

They put a camera above my buddy's desk and he and the only other dispatcher both quit. The owner of the company had to come in and do the logistics... and obviously couldn't work both shifts (he had these two doing essentially 12 hour shifts and badly needed to hire a 3rd and 4th dispatcher but never would).
Likely losing millions since it's a oil/fuel delivery company that takes stuff from the refineries and delivers to gas stations. Big money to fuck around with by disrespecting KEY employees.

Who gives a fuck about an employee. Even highly skilled can be replaced in less than a week. That man was an idiot who didn't bother to cross train employees. Honestly one of the biggest mistakes companies make.

Highly skilled can be replaced in less than a week?
On what planet?

Just opening a job req takes over a week in most places. Then you need to have onboarding calls with Talent Acquisition so they understand what you need. Then they make the posts. A week later they come to you with 10 resumes and you immediately nix all 10 for not being really what you need, which breaks TAs heart a bit as they had a screener with this one candidate they thought would be perfect and he would be so great. Two weeks later you finally have 3 candidates that have passed the screener and fit your needs. You interview all 3, and they're dolts. TA found 5 other candidates that are perfect, but three aren't looking at the moment, 2 want too much money, and 1 won't relocate. A month later you cut your requirements and finally get someone you like well enough. Only she wants to give 4 weeks notice to her firm, because her bonus gets paid in 3 and she doesn't want to jeopardize that, and she wants to take 3 weeks between jobs to rest and reset. When she finally gets in the door it still takes her 6 months to figure out the organization and who she works with. It takes 2 years to build the kind of trust and relationships the person she replaced had, where everyone knows who she is, what and when to go to her, and thinks it's weird if she's not in a meeting.

no one is reading that or cares

So, you've never hired anyone. Got it.

Laughing Man wrote on Jan 19, 2023, 15:20:

Sepharo wrote on Jan 18, 2023, 16:25:

Laughing Man wrote on Jan 18, 2023, 15:56:

RogueSix wrote on Jan 18, 2023, 10:50:

Laughing Man wrote on Jan 18, 2023, 10:44:
We installed cameras at our work site because of employees complaining about work and we found they actually spent hours of the day not even working. After firing those employees' productivity increased and we started working less hours.

Employees are usually their own worst enemies.

Must be in the USA?

If you would even begin to propose installing cameras for work supervision here in Germany, well, I hope you have made your last will .

No privacy here.

They put a camera above my buddy's desk and he and the only other dispatcher both quit. The owner of the company had to come in and do the logistics... and obviously couldn't work both shifts (he had these two doing essentially 12 hour shifts and badly needed to hire a 3rd and 4th dispatcher but never would).
Likely losing millions since it's a oil/fuel delivery company that takes stuff from the refineries and delivers to gas stations. Big money to fuck around with by disrespecting KEY employees.

Who gives a fuck about an employee. Even highly skilled can be replaced in less than a week. That man was an idiot who didn't bother to cross train employees. Honestly one of the biggest mistakes companies make.

LOL, my company had a retirement in September. Even though they found a highly qualified candidate relatively quickly, the hiring processes took three months before the person was able to come on board:
- resume search
- candidate identified
- application submitted
- sample application built to demonstrate technical ability
- first round of interviews
- benefit research
- in person skill test
- second round of interviews
- third round of interviews
- background check
- drug test
- offer
- counteroffer
- salary agreement
- paperwork
- start date determined (must align with pay period)
- resignation at current company submitted

So I got the job, and I'm very happy at my new company.

Beamer wrote on Jan 19, 2023, 15:26:

Laughing Man wrote on Jan 19, 2023, 15:20:

Sepharo wrote on Jan 18, 2023, 16:25:

Laughing Man wrote on Jan 18, 2023, 15:56:

RogueSix wrote on Jan 18, 2023, 10:50:

Laughing Man wrote on Jan 18, 2023, 10:44:
We installed cameras at our work site because of employees complaining about work and we found they actually spent hours of the day not even working. After firing those employees' productivity increased and we started working less hours.

Employees are usually their own worst enemies.

Must be in the USA?

If you would even begin to propose installing cameras for work supervision here in Germany, well, I hope you have made your last will .

No privacy here.

They put a camera above my buddy's desk and he and the only other dispatcher both quit. The owner of the company had to come in and do the logistics... and obviously couldn't work both shifts (he had these two doing essentially 12 hour shifts and badly needed to hire a 3rd and 4th dispatcher but never would).
Likely losing millions since it's a oil/fuel delivery company that takes stuff from the refineries and delivers to gas stations. Big money to fuck around with by disrespecting KEY employees.

Who gives a fuck about an employee. Even highly skilled can be replaced in less than a week. That man was an idiot who didn't bother to cross train employees. Honestly one of the biggest mistakes companies make.

Highly skilled can be replaced in less than a week?
On what planet?

Just opening a job req takes over a week in most places. Then you need to have onboarding calls with Talent Acquisition so they understand what you need. Then they make the posts. A week later they come to you with 10 resumes and you immediately nix all 10 for not being really what you need, which breaks TAs heart a bit as they had a screener with this one candidate they thought would be perfect and he would be so great. Two weeks later you finally have 3 candidates that have passed the screener and fit your needs. You interview all 3, and they're dolts. TA found 5 other candidates that are perfect, but three aren't looking at the moment, 2 want too much money, and 1 won't relocate. A month later you cut your requirements and finally get someone you like well enough. Only she wants to give 4 weeks notice to her firm, because her bonus gets paid in 3 and she doesn't want to jeopardize that, and she wants to take 3 weeks between jobs to rest and reset. When she finally gets in the door it still takes her 6 months to figure out the organization and who she works with. It takes 2 years to build the kind of trust and relationships the person she replaced had, where everyone knows who she is, what and when to go to her, and thinks it's weird if she's not in a meeting.

no one is reading that or cares

It's honestly sickening how useless the majority of workers are. Run your own business for a decade and you develop a serious disdain for employees in general and learn to appreciate those who still take pride in their work. Those people are few and far between in this day and age.

They still need to be monitored as people in general are terrible and will do anything they think they can get away with.

Laughing Man wrote on Jan 19, 2023, 15:20:

Sepharo wrote on Jan 18, 2023, 16:25:

Laughing Man wrote on Jan 18, 2023, 15:56:

RogueSix wrote on Jan 18, 2023, 10:50:

Laughing Man wrote on Jan 18, 2023, 10:44:
We installed cameras at our work site because of employees complaining about work and we found they actually spent hours of the day not even working. After firing those employees' productivity increased and we started working less hours.

Employees are usually their own worst enemies.

Must be in the USA?

If you would even begin to propose installing cameras for work supervision here in Germany, well, I hope you have made your last will .

No privacy here.

They put a camera above my buddy's desk and he and the only other dispatcher both quit. The owner of the company had to come in and do the logistics... and obviously couldn't work both shifts (he had these two doing essentially 12 hour shifts and badly needed to hire a 3rd and 4th dispatcher but never would).
Likely losing millions since it's a oil/fuel delivery company that takes stuff from the refineries and delivers to gas stations. Big money to fuck around with by disrespecting KEY employees.

Who gives a fuck about an employee. Even highly skilled can be replaced in less than a week. That man was an idiot who didn't bother to cross train employees. Honestly one of the biggest mistakes companies make.

Highly skilled can be replaced in less than a week?
On what planet?

Just opening a job req takes over a week in most places. Then you need to have onboarding calls with Talent Acquisition so they understand what you need. Then they make the posts. A week later they come to you with 10 resumes and you immediately nix all 10 for not being really what you need, which breaks TAs heart a bit as they had a screener with this one candidate they thought would be perfect and he would be so great. Two weeks later you finally have 3 candidates that have passed the screener and fit your needs. You interview all 3, and they're dolts. TA found 5 other candidates that are perfect, but three aren't looking at the moment, 2 want too much money, and 1 won't relocate. A month later you cut your requirements and finally get someone you like well enough. Only she wants to give 4 weeks notice to her firm, because her bonus gets paid in 3 and she doesn't want to jeopardize that, and she wants to take 3 weeks between jobs to rest and reset. When she finally gets in the door it still takes her 6 months to figure out the organization and who she works with. It takes 2 years to build the kind of trust and relationships the person she replaced had, where everyone knows who she is, what and when to go to her, and thinks it's weird if she's not in a meeting.

Sepharo wrote on Jan 18, 2023, 16:25:

Laughing Man wrote on Jan 18, 2023, 15:56:

RogueSix wrote on Jan 18, 2023, 10:50:

Laughing Man wrote on Jan 18, 2023, 10:44:
We installed cameras at our work site because of employees complaining about work and we found they actually spent hours of the day not even working. After firing those employees' productivity increased and we started working less hours.

Employees are usually their own worst enemies.

Must be in the USA?

If you would even begin to propose installing cameras for work supervision here in Germany, well, I hope you have made your last will .

No privacy here.

They put a camera above my buddy's desk and he and the only other dispatcher both quit. The owner of the company had to come in and do the logistics... and obviously couldn't work both shifts (he had these two doing essentially 12 hour shifts and badly needed to hire a 3rd and 4th dispatcher but never would).
Likely losing millions since it's a oil/fuel delivery company that takes stuff from the refineries and delivers to gas stations. Big money to fuck around with by disrespecting KEY employees.

Who gives a fuck about an employee. Even highly skilled can be replaced in less than a week. That man was an idiot who didn't bother to cross train employees. Honestly one of the biggest mistakes companies make.

4 day work weeks are ideal for many industries, you generally get people using their time more effectively and they waste a lot less of it in meetings and email. Better work life balance makes for happier employees and less staff turnover. There are some challenges with coverage and increased staffing costs though. There are also industries where it's a poor fit or just not feasible at all.

jdreyer wrote on Jan 18, 2023, 19:27:

Beamer wrote on Jan 18, 2023, 17:18:

The higher paid you are, the less anyone pays attention to what you do.
No different than Elon demanding that everyone be in the office so he can be certain they're working, while he's CEO of 3 different companies at once and spending his time tweeting idiocy at literally all hours of the night.

Blue collar job? You're going to be monitored. White collar? Depends on how many people report to you, but the more that do, the less anyone is likely to watch.
Seems inefficient.

Is this a confession? Don't you have like 120 people reporting to you now?

And I post here all day long!

Beamer wrote on Jan 18, 2023, 17:18:

The higher paid you are, the less anyone pays attention to what you do.
No different than Elon demanding that everyone be in the office so he can be certain they're working, while he's CEO of 3 different companies at once and spending his time tweeting idiocy at literally all hours of the night.

Blue collar job? You're going to be monitored. White collar? Depends on how many people report to you, but the more that do, the less anyone is likely to watch.
Seems inefficient.

Is this a confession? Don't you have like 120 people reporting to you now?

Sepharo wrote on Jan 18, 2023, 16:25:

Laughing Man wrote on Jan 18, 2023, 15:56:

RogueSix wrote on Jan 18, 2023, 10:50:

Laughing Man wrote on Jan 18, 2023, 10:44:
We installed cameras at our work site because of employees complaining about work and we found they actually spent hours of the day not even working. After firing those employees' productivity increased and we started working less hours.

Employees are usually their own worst enemies.

Must be in the USA?

If you would even begin to propose installing cameras for work supervision here in Germany, well, I hope you have made your last will .

No privacy here.

They put a camera above my buddy's desk and he and the only other dispatcher both quit. The owner of the company had to come in and do the logistics... and obviously couldn't work both shifts (he had these two doing essentially 12 hour shifts and badly needed to hire a 3rd and 4th dispatcher but never would).
Likely losing millions since it's a oil/fuel delivery company that takes stuff from the refineries and delivers to gas stations. Big money to fuck around with by disrespecting KEY employees.

The higher paid you are, the less anyone pays attention to what you do.
No different than Elon demanding that everyone be in the office so he can be certain they're working, while he's CEO of 3 different companies at once and spending his time tweeting idiocy at literally all hours of the night.

Blue collar job? You're going to be monitored. White collar? Depends on how many people report to you, but the more that do, the less anyone is likely to watch.
Seems inefficient.

Laughing Man wrote on Jan 18, 2023, 15:56:

RogueSix wrote on Jan 18, 2023, 10:50:

Laughing Man wrote on Jan 18, 2023, 10:44:
We installed cameras at our work site because of employees complaining about work and we found they actually spent hours of the day not even working. After firing those employees' productivity increased and we started working less hours.

Employees are usually their own worst enemies.

Must be in the USA?

If you would even begin to propose installing cameras for work supervision here in Germany, well, I hope you have made your last will .

No privacy here.

They put a camera above my buddy's desk and he and the only other dispatcher both quit. The owner of the company had to come in and do the logistics... and obviously couldn't work both shifts (he had these two doing essentially 12 hour shifts and badly needed to hire a 3rd and 4th dispatcher but never would).
Likely losing millions since it's a oil/fuel delivery company that takes stuff from the refineries and delivers to gas stations. Big money to fuck around with by disrespecting KEY employees.

RogueSix wrote on Jan 18, 2023, 10:50:

Laughing Man wrote on Jan 18, 2023, 10:44:
We installed cameras at our work site because of employees complaining about work and we found they actually spent hours of the day not even working. After firing those employees' productivity increased and we started working less hours.

Employees are usually their own worst enemies.

Must be in the USA?

If you would even begin to propose installing cameras for work supervision here in Germany, well, I hope you have made your last will .

No privacy here.

Laughing Man wrote on Jan 18, 2023, 10:44:
We installed cameras at our work site because of employees complaining about work and we found they actually spent hours of the day not even working. After firing those employees' productivity increased and we started working less hours.

Employees are usually their own worst enemies.

Must be in the USA?

If you would even begin to propose installing cameras for work supervision here in Germany, well, I hope you have made your last will .

We installed cameras at our work site because of employees complaining about work and we found they actually spent hours of the day not even working. After firing those employees' productivity increased and we started working less hours.

Employees are usually their own worst enemies.

Slick wrote on Jan 18, 2023, 09:40:
What do you think of this:

- 9 hour days x 4 days = 36 hours.

Not good. It's been proven in many studies that people are way more productive when working shorter hours like 5 - 6 hour work days. I have read quite a few articles of very happy bosses with that system in place at their gig.

However, those were mostly smaller companies and it seems questionable if something like this would work for a gig of Ubi's size. In fact, there may be an additional layer of complexity because of the very different nature of labor within a gaming project.

A tools/technical/gameplay programmer who needs to solve complex issues is probably toast after 5 - 6 hours but an artist or animator who is doing very repetitive "light" work all day long might be a different story. When it comes to asset creation, there is also nothing that can replace man hours (except maybe robot hours but we're not there yet). It's like factory work.

Oh well, I'm sure that Ubi will figure something out. The way it works here in Europe is that you go into these labor agreement negotiations with very bold demands. You slam down your maximum demands, knowing exactly that this will never happen, but that a compromise needs to be achieved. Then you negotiate said compromise. And everyone lives happily ever after...

I'm surprised to see this many corporate boot lickers in this thread.

For a little more than two years, my entire department has been on a "4 day" work week. But, ultimately, the measure of days is irrelevant because I don't track it. I don't track hours, either. I track completed objectives against forecasted completion dates and milestones against the same metric.

You're not slinging fries at Mickey D's. I'm paying you for your knowledge and for your ability to apply that knowledge. If that takes you all of twenty hours one week, cool. Good job on being effective and efficient!

This bizarre belief that all workers are factory workers from the 50s needs to permanently be put to rest. It undervalues the knowledge and skill of employees and serves as a means of exploitation and control.

Slick wrote on Jan 18, 2023, 09:40:
What do you think of this:

- 9 hour days x 4 days = 36 hours.
- minor pay bump to offset reduced total hours/week
- ability to work through 30 minutes of an otherwise mandatory hour lunch (so total workday is only extended by 30 minutes)

From the workers' perspective, I think that's a good work/life balance, but it's missing the other part of the equation. How do you PROVE to the company that they're getting value from this? Are there any concessions you can give to actually get them to budge on this? Especially publically traded companies with a legal fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to extract the largest profit possible.

Any bright ideas? Try seeing it from the other side, what would make you want to accept this deal if you were the company?

In the US, companies experimenting with 4 day work weeks do 4 10 hour days.
But the French work week is already 35 hours, with anything more being overtime, though someone here actually from France would be able to do a lot of explanation for why that isn't how it generally pans out - things you don't really understand if you don't live/work there.

France is weird, but the French I work with generally seem happy.

A new report on global wealth inequality by Oxfam, an international non-profit, reveals how lucrative the last two years have been for people who didn't need any more money. The report, Survival of the Richest, finds that over the last two years, "the richest 1% have captured almost two-thirds of all new wealth – nearly twice as much money as the bottom 99% of the world’s population." Since 2020, billionaire wealth has increased by $2.7 billion every day. This massive increase comes after decades of rapidly accumulating wealth for billionaires.

In other words, the last two years have been an economic windfall for the obscenely wealthy.

Today, just 81 billionaires "hold more wealth than 50% of the world combined." And while the elite enjoyed an unprecedented windfall, those with the fewest resources saw their material conditions stall or worsen. Oxfam estimates that "at least 1.7 billion workers worldwide will have seen inflation outpace their wages in 2022."

In 2022, the World Bank announced that "we will fail to meet the goal of ending extreme poverty by 2030" and "global progress in reducing extreme poverty has come to a halt." The last two years constitute "the largest setback in addressing global poverty since World War II." In 2021, "between 702 and 828 million people were affected by hunger," nearly 10% of the world's population.

Slaves Workers of the world please stay in your lane and stop trying to upset the apple cart. Those apples aren't for you.

VaranDragon wrote on Jan 18, 2023, 08:21:

Beamer wrote on Jan 18, 2023, 08:08:
I'm amazed at how some here are constantly angry at corporations, but then angry at workers for standing up to corporations

It's a dissonance that's becoming more and more common in this day and age. It's like a form of "doublethink" from Orwell's 1984. Perhaps it's necessary for them to stay sane and hold on to the values they were raised with, but which have since lost all meaning in the strange extremes of capitalist society in this day and age.

I think it's two-fold, and you've captured part of it. Part of it is absolutely "this isn't what I was brought up knowing is right, which implies what I was brought up knowing was right was wrong, and that can't be right, so therefore this must be wrong."
The other part, in my opinion, is "well, that's better than what I have, and why should anyone have better than what I have."

Both feel short sighted, as we should always be improving things, and if we improve things for one group odds are those improvements will come over to other groups if they work, but both seem to be where a lot of conservative thought comes from.