Yeah you make good points, mate. My analogies were lazy.

Anyway, this is about as much as I can care for Denuvo.

For those who are bummed out by Callisto Protocol being meh and the new Marvel game having its flaws too, maybe Hubris will be an interesting game this month? It's for the VR crowd, but it looks stellar. Release is come 7th.

Quinn wrote on Dec 5, 2022, 02:23:
As for the philosophical aspect: Isn't this analogous to those things put on items in stores, that trigger an alarm at the exit if not removed or scanned properly at the cash register? I mean, we don't go "this store thinks I'm a thief". Or at customs, where we as honest travelers have to sometimes wait hours on end? There, we don't go "These assholes think I'm a terrorist!", and yet it severly impacts our experience. Like the other examples, isn't Denuvo a necessity because society has to move as slow as the slowest person?

Not quite the same. Didn't the store where I bought the game check my credit card?

To take your scenarios a step further it would be if the store installed alarms in your house and set them to check the item every time you lifted it up off the shelf. Keep in mind you can't take it off the shelf until it is checked. It is fast, and you probably won't notice the delay, but its there.

Customs doesn't hide in your bag and go on vacation with you.

The fact that they usually patch it out should be proof enough it causes issues somewhere. There would never be any reason or desire to remove it otherwise.

Thanks for replying to my request to elaborate on Denuvo, guys! Personally, I'm with RogueSix in that I've never had issues with Denuvo and more often than not don't even know a game has Denuvo or not. Then again, I've never done a 1-on-1 comparison. I wouldn't go so far as to say those YouTubers who did were fakers.

As for the philosophical aspect: Isn't this analogous to those things put on items in stores, that trigger an alarm at the exit if not removed or scanned properly at the cash register? I mean, we don't go "this store thinks I'm a thief". Or at customs, where we as honest travelers have to sometimes wait hours on end? There, we don't go "These assholes think I'm a terrorist!", and yet it severly impacts our experience. Like the other examples, isn't Denuvo a necessity because society has to move as slow as the slowest person?

Acleacius wrote on Dec 4, 2022, 20:39:

Quinn wrote on Dec 4, 2022, 08:52:
Can someone please tell me wtf is wrong with Denuvo, lol!? Afaik most games have it?

Just ignore him, clearly a troll comment. At best 10%, probably less have the crapware and there's tons of evidence of it's hindrance.

What? You're telling people to ignore me and that I'm a troll for asking about Denuvo? If that's so, get yourself checked. Wtf is up with that?

RedEye9 wrote on Dec 4, 2022, 21:16:
Ah, the "denuvo ate my baby" crowd is out in full force.

This isn't productive and you know it.

deleted.

This comment was edited on Dec 4, 2022, 23:55.

Ah, the "denuvo ate my baby" crowd is out in full force.

Quinn wrote on Dec 4, 2022, 08:52:
Can someone please tell me wtf is wrong with Denuvo, lol!? Afaik most games have it?

Just ignore him, clearly a troll comment. At best 10%, probably less have the crapware and there's tons of evidence of it's hindrance.

Like I said, not getting into the performance debate. My reasons are plenty reason enough.

Overon wrote on Dec 4, 2022, 11:33:
There are videos on youtube with evidence comparing loading times and fame rates rates before Denuvo and after Denuvo gets removed. The summary is this: The biggest most consistent impact is loading times. Without Denuvo game content loads faster, with it slower. That is reason enough it to hate Denuvo as it makes the paying player experience worse. Sometimes it also affects framerates making them worse than without Denuvo but this effect is not as consistent as the slower loading times. And philosophically, I think Prez is right.

Yep... and as we all know: If there is a YouTube video then it must be true because YouTube is THE LAW .

Seriously, don't believe all the crap you see on YT. Who knows who paid for those videos? There is a long history of attempts to discredit Denuvo (like how it destroys SSDs with massive write activity which was proven to be 100% bullshit).

Denuvo themselves admit to a negligible very minor performance impact in the very low single digit percentages (CPU usage). It has become en vogue among gamers who want to steal a game to blame the performance issues on Denuvo instead of bad optimization.

In the case of Callisto Protocol it is crystal clear that the initial massive stuttering was 100% caused by the amateur devs forgetting to include shader compilation. How fucking dumb do you have to be? Seriously.
If there are still performance issues then the chances are 100% that it's still some spaghetti code by these amateur clowns and not Denuvo.

Finally and anecdotally, I have never had a single issue with a Denuvo protected title in my life. I have played many games and did not even know they had Denuvo. I just don't care because it is such a non-issue. I'm glad Denuvo exists and how it helps to protect the games during the critical release window. Rock on, Denuvo. May the thieves of the world continue wailing in desperation while you stand strong like a valiant knight in shining armor against the forces of evil!

jdreyer wrote on Dec 4, 2022, 16:16:

WaltSee wrote on Dec 4, 2022, 09:39:

Quinn wrote on Dec 4, 2022, 08:52:
Can someone please tell me wtf is wrong with Denuvo, lol!? Afaik most games have it?

Mainly, it's the principle that paying customers--$60-$70 retail paying customers--are treated like thieves and pirates by having a Denuvo layer interposed between the game and their OS to stop them from pirating the game. It's penalizing paying customers, which I find very wrong--which is why I buy from GOG whenever possible, or wait until the Denuvo layer is removed by the game dev. FYI, it is interesting to note that most if not all Denuvo games at some point have their Denuvo layer removed by the devs in a subsequent patch.

The second reason is sometimes as compelling: in some games, the additions of the copy protection layer can cause performance problems and/or game bugs that wouldn't be present sans the Denuvo layer. That could be the very root of the current problems with CP. In my opinion, people who bootleg games were never potential paying customers in the first place.

I hope this answers your question...;)

Bravo Walt. Not only do I agree, but this was well-thought out and succinct.

Its even more insulting when they dump Denuvo on the game at the last few days before release. Mainly after many have already pre-purchased the game. That is what drives up the anger to the point where it gets.

That is just very shady bullshit from the publisher to pull that on their paying customers knowing that Denuvo is going to have a hevey backlash.

The last and final game I bought with Denuvo was Lords Of The Fallen (2014).
Oddly, it still has Denuvo on Steam but you can get it from GoG drm-free?

I paid twice for a game (on steep sales), sure. But now I have the game free and clear of authentication crap, possible performance issues due to Denuvo, developer whims to add further crap, licensing issues that remove content, etc. You get the idea.

Cutting the cord and having control of my purchased single player games is important to me. My only concern is if I'm too stupid to backup the offline installers. Hint: I'm not.

WaltSee wrote on Dec 4, 2022, 09:39:

Quinn wrote on Dec 4, 2022, 08:52:
Can someone please tell me wtf is wrong with Denuvo, lol!? Afaik most games have it?

Mainly, it's the principle that paying customers--$60-$70 retail paying customers--are treated like thieves and pirates by having a Denuvo layer interposed between the game and their OS to stop them from pirating the game. It's penalizing paying customers, which I find very wrong--which is why I buy from GOG whenever possible, or wait until the Denuvo layer is removed by the game dev. FYI, it is interesting to note that most if not all Denuvo games at some point have their Denuvo layer removed by the devs in a subsequent patch.

The second reason is sometimes as compelling: in some games, the additions of the copy protection layer can cause performance problems and/or game bugs that wouldn't be present sans the Denuvo layer. That could be the very root of the current problems with CP. In my opinion, people who bootleg games were never potential paying customers in the first place.

I hope this answers your question...;)

Bravo Walt. Not only do I agree, but this was well-thought out and succinct.

Prez wrote on Dec 4, 2022, 09:48:
Technically, Denuvo arguably has negative effects on performance. I'll let other people debate that. Personally I will not support a developer who refuses to accept that piracy has an overall negligible effect on a games sales so essentially they are adding something in that will only negatively effect the paying customer.

You're impression that many games use it is partially true. By and large developers remove it once a game is cracked and available on pirate sites. There are some who don't, in which case I only buy a game once I have a verified-working pirated copy. I will not be at the mercy of someone else when I pay for a game.

BTW, in case it comes up, yes, Steam is DRM. Almost every game (except for it's shovelware) has a downloadable third-pary executable however that guarantees that I will still be able to play the vast majority of games of my Steam library regardless of what Valve does.

There are videos on youtube with evidence comparing loading times and fame rates rates before Denuvo and after Denuvo gets removed. The summary is this: The biggest most consistent impact is loading times. Without Denuvo game content loads faster, with it slower. That is reason enough it to hate Denuvo as it makes the paying player experience worse. Sometimes it also affects framerates making them worse than without Denuvo but this effect is not as consistent as the slower loading times. And philosophically, I think Prez is right.

Technically, Denuvo arguably has negative effects on performance. I'll let other people debate that. Personally I will not support a developer who refuses to accept that piracy has an overall negligible effect on a games sales so essentially they are adding something in that will only negatively effect the paying customer.

You're impression that many games use it is partially true. By and large developers remove it once a game is cracked and available on pirate sites. There are some who don't, in which case I only buy a game once I have a verified-working pirated copy. I will not be at the mercy of someone else when I pay for a game.

BTW, in case it comes up, yes, Steam is DRM. Almost every game (except for it's shovelware) has a downloadable third-pary executable however that guarantees that I will still be able to play the vast majority of games of my Steam library regardless of what Valve does.

Quinn wrote on Dec 4, 2022, 08:52:
Can someone please tell me wtf is wrong with Denuvo, lol!? Afaik most games have it?

Mainly, it's the principle that paying customers--$60-$70 retail paying customers--are treated like thieves and pirates by having a Denuvo layer interposed between the game and their OS to stop them from pirating the game. It's penalizing paying customers, which I find very wrong--which is why I buy from GOG whenever possible, or wait until the Denuvo layer is removed by the game dev. FYI, it is interesting to note that most if not all Denuvo games at some point have their Denuvo layer removed by the devs in a subsequent patch.

The second reason is sometimes as compelling: in some games, the additions of the copy protection layer can cause performance problems and/or game bugs that wouldn't be present sans the Denuvo layer. That could be the very root of the current problems with CP. In my opinion, people who bootleg games were never potential paying customers in the first place.

I hope this answers your question...;)

Ugh, I'm not even sure the removal of Denuvo and some shader patches are going to fix this game. In depth descriptions of the combat in Steam reviews make it sound like the basic systems of the game are terribly designed. Melee focus, with terrible design ideas about dodging and enemy composition. Too bad there are dozens of Dark Souls and Dark Souls clone games that do that far better.

All these fuckers had to do was remake Dead Space with a new storyline and better graphics, and it would have sold millions. Now all we'll really get I guess, is the Dead Space 1 and eventually Dead Space 2 remakes.

Can someone please tell me wtf is wrong with Denuvo, lol!? Afaik most games have it?

Now that it's fixed, when Denuvo gets removed I'll give it a try. Not enough sci-fi horror in media

Overon wrote on Dec 4, 2022, 04:41:
It never occurred to them to precompile their shaders so that the first time player experience isn't full of stuttering. It's not a new idea, there are other games on PC which have done so.

It's the default for UE4, which is the engine they're using.

They took something the engine does by default to improve the gameplay experience and removed it, which caused the main issue reviewers and players were complaining about. Then they added it back in.

Also, they call it an app and not a game...

It never occurred to them to precompile their shaders so that the first time player experience isn't full of stuttering. It's not a new idea, there are other games on PC which have done so.

this bums me out.. Love Glen Schofield.