Burrito of Peace wrote on Nov 13, 2022, 17:10:

Acleacius wrote on Nov 13, 2022, 16:22:
Possibly, except I can't see a reason for society, without women being the foundation.
It's certainly worthy debate but the problem is, the ego of man. Is it possible they could accept women are more important?

I don't think it is fair to say that one sex is more contributory than the other when it comes to the foundational elements of human society. We're looking at ~12,000+ years of human history and pretty much every single thing we do as humans today has its roots in our paleolithic ancestors. Rather, I posit that both sexes worked hand-in-glove to achieve common and necessary goals. Every one of those goals revolved around security and survival. When I say "security", I am not solely meaning physical security from animal attacks or attacks by other humans. You need food security, housing security, child rearing security for both the continuation of the species and for your tribe, the security of the equal application of cultural mores and customs, and so forth. None of that happens if you're wasting energy, resources, and time sequestering or suppressing half the members of your tribe.

Part of the problem is a lack of a wide body of knowledge. The only detailed records we have only go back to around the time of the Old Kingdom in ancient Egypt and even those are scattered and incomplete. We have almost nothing that predates that time period that is detailed or common enough to draw solid conclusions. So we, as a race, make a lot of inferences of what our ancient ancestors did or did not do. Unfortunately, those inferences are inherently biased by the luxuries, ease of living, and cultural politics that we currently enjoy/live within. We can objectively try to distances ourselves from those biases but they're still there and they still do seep in. It's just how the electrified lump of fat in our skull works as a processing measure.

There have been several anthropological experiments done that show that when placed in a survival situation, almost no one gives a shit about the sex of the individuals in their group. Take twelve humans, six men and six women, and drop them off in the middle of nowhere without modern tools, textiles, clothing, or access to information. What happens is that the tribe immediately begins to sort itself out based on who is talented at doing what. Bill can weave water tight baskets and make really sturdy fish traps? Awesome, Bill starts making baskets and fish traps. Leela figures out the best place to put the fish traps and how to bait them to most effectively and efficiently bring in a large amount of fish? Awesome, Leela is now bringing fish back to the tribe so everybody has a source of protein. Sex here is irrelevant because the tribe is seeking to establish security.

It isn't until we get to the Bronze Age and, later, the Iron Age that the issues of security is reduced to the point where we have the luxury of free time to figure out how to fuck each other over. But by those points, human society is already established and it is both men and women that have created that foundation upon which the great civilizations and cultures are built.

But statistically it's true though, and should give us pause and caution, before automatically negating responsibility of the person in power atm?
There's nothing better for society, than working together. I didn't really say differently but maybe people misunderstood?
I'm not saying All Men or Responsible for All Violence. Right, I never said that, it would be wholly stupid, or more stupid than I normally am!

I sort of believe Egypt would be an example of extreme violence and slavery. Especially around the times of the pyramids but they also had a queen.
But it's nearly impossible to separate violence committed by women from being in a male dominated society.
Less not forget the Romans or the Huns or Olmecs, as the worst of history. While as you mentioned working together especially in nomadic fashion,
was extremely fortuitous such as non violent Native American Inuits and Indians. All it took was violent, greedy, psychotic sociopaths from Europe to destroy it.
Not directed to you but someone will read that last bit and try to say I mean everyone in EU. Obviously, that doesn't mean psychotic sociopaths are endemic to EU.

Yes, I think we agree, sorry if I wasn't clear enough, but I promise I didn't say "All Men".

ududy wrote on Nov 14, 2022, 13:45:

Acleacius wrote on Nov 13, 2022, 16:17:

ududy wrote on Nov 13, 2022, 00:33:

Acleacius wrote on Nov 12, 2022, 19:31:
"Promptly judged him guilty over these public allegations"

Is there any evidence, there were no meetings or talks with him before two major game companies parted ways?

Who TF cares how much work he did, if it's true. So no possibility, this is his fault, the work didn't get used?

We live in world where the last 10,000 years, one group is responsible for at least 90% of ALL the Violence.

All the violence In the HISTORY of the FUCKING WORLD!
Brutality, Torture, Rape, Murder and War. ALL OF IT.
One group.
Men

Wow, that's genius. Are you claiming that all men are a-priori guilty because they are men? That's what you seem to be saying. You like the witch trials very much, just wish that they would have targeted the other gender?

Nope and nope, got anything else. Cause if that's really what you take from the facts, then I'm sure you can't help yourself?

Don't play dumb. What else would you be claiming? How is your ridiculously simplistic interpretation of history, or what you call "facts", otherwise relevant to the issue at hand? Care to explain?

Actually it doesn't seem like I'm the one playing dumb. I clearly did NOT say, ALL MEN, which is the foundation of your gas lighting attempt?

If you really can't figure it out, what I'm saying is Men who are driven by their ego, who have power and wealth, shouldn't be trusted without scrutiny.
We live in a time where millions of people are seemingly enthralled by trust fund babies who had everything handed to them, with no idea about life's challenges.

Acleacius wrote on Nov 13, 2022, 16:17:

ududy wrote on Nov 13, 2022, 00:33:

Acleacius wrote on Nov 12, 2022, 19:31:
"Promptly judged him guilty over these public allegations"

Is there any evidence, there were no meetings or talks with him before two major game companies parted ways?

Who TF cares how much work he did, if it's true. So no possibility, this is his fault, the work didn't get used?

We live in world where the last 10,000 years, one group is responsible for at least 90% of ALL the Violence.

All the violence In the HISTORY of the FUCKING WORLD!
Brutality, Torture, Rape, Murder and War. ALL OF IT.
One group.
Men

Wow, that's genius. Are you claiming that all men are a-priori guilty because they are men? That's what you seem to be saying. You like the witch trials very much, just wish that they would have targeted the other gender?

Nope and nope, got anything else. Cause if that's really what you take from the facts, then I'm sure you can't help yourself?

Don't play dumb. What else would you be claiming? How is your ridiculously simplistic interpretation of history, or what you call "facts", otherwise relevant to the issue at hand? Care to explain?

WannaLogAlready wrote on Nov 13, 2022, 13:46:

Beamer wrote on Nov 13, 2022, 10:54:

El Pit wrote on Nov 13, 2022, 02:21:
Societies cannot be based on the judgment of every single person. And usually, people do not have every detail about what happened and judge based on their own feelings and opinions - which is the worst base for judgment.
... ...
Even news are biased because they have to sell and by this filtering "change" our world. We want excitement, even in the news. Good news don't sell and are "boring".
It is complicated with people and it will in my opinion never be easy.

I didn't really read past the first line. Use your own judgment. I'm not saying send him to prison, which is a very high standard. I'm saying use your own judgment for what you do. As humans, we should feel comfortable making personal decisions based upon the evidence at hand. If we don't, why have a brain at all?
.... ...

Thanks El Pit, excellent argumentation.

Beamer, is it you ?
" ... making personal decisions based upon the evidence ... " in an answer where you didn't bother to read the full post ?
Do we bother reading all the evidence available or just "the first line" is enough ?

Nah. I see no reason to bother with someone's argument about why we aren't allowed to use our brains and decide not to support people regardless of what courts say.

Historically, courts are terrible at harassment. There's very rarely evidence. So, we shouldn't personally use it as our only basis. Would you buy something from OJ? He was found not guilty, but do any of us believe it?

None of us are going to send anyone to prison, but none of us should be made to feel badly for not wanting to buy a game from someone just because they weren't imprisoned. We have brains. We can use them. "Let the courts decide " makes perfect sense for official punishment, but is a vapid way to make personal shopping decisions. And, ultimately, all anyone here is talking about is how excited they'd be to buy another of his games, nothing more.

"90% of all the technological, cultural, societal, and philosophical progress over the last 10,000 years are also due to men*.

*That we know of. It is highly unlikely that women contributed 10% or less over the course of all human history."

Well, as women began to have reluctant *permission* to access higher studies in the last century (without being mocked out of the premises) and even today fight vs stereotyped roles, the above sounds adequate.

Anecdotal: The most brilliant person I met in my life, in an international oil company, is a woman, having to blatantly outperform males to even figure.

Acleacius wrote on Nov 13, 2022, 16:22:
Possibly, except I can't see a reason for society, without women being the foundation.
It's certainly worthy debate but the problem is, the ego of man. Is it possible they could accept women are more important?

I don't think it is fair to say that one sex is more contributory than the other when it comes to the foundational elements of human society. We're looking at ~12,000+ years of human history and pretty much every single thing we do as humans today has its roots in our paleolithic ancestors. Rather, I posit that both sexes worked hand-in-glove to achieve common and necessary goals. Every one of those goals revolved around security and survival. When I say "security", I am not solely meaning physical security from animal attacks or attacks by other humans. You need food security, housing security, child rearing security for both the continuation of the species and for your tribe, the security of the equal application of cultural mores and customs, and so forth. None of that happens if you're wasting energy, resources, and time sequestering or suppressing half the members of your tribe.

Part of the problem is a lack of a wide body of knowledge. The only detailed records we have only go back to around the time of the Old Kingdom in ancient Egypt and even those are scattered and incomplete. We have almost nothing that predates that time period that is detailed or common enough to draw solid conclusions. So we, as a race, make a lot of inferences of what our ancient ancestors did or did not do. Unfortunately, those inferences are inherently biased by the luxuries, ease of living, and cultural politics that we currently enjoy/live within. We can objectively try to distances ourselves from those biases but they're still there and they still do seep in. It's just how the electrified lump of fat in our skull works as a processing measure.

There have been several anthropological experiments done that show that when placed in a survival situation, almost no one gives a shit about the sex of the individuals in their group. Take twelve humans, six men and six women, and drop them off in the middle of nowhere without modern tools, textiles, clothing, or access to information. What happens is that the tribe immediately begins to sort itself out based on who is talented at doing what. Bill can weave water tight baskets and make really sturdy fish traps? Awesome, Bill starts making baskets and fish traps. Leela figures out the best place to put the fish traps and how to bait them to most effectively and efficiently bring in a large amount of fish? Awesome, Leela is now bringing fish back to the tribe so everybody has a source of protein. Sex here is irrelevant because the tribe is seeking to establish security.

It isn't until we get to the Bronze Age and, later, the Iron Age that the issues of security is reduced to the point where we have the luxury of free time to figure out how to fuck each other over. But by those points, human society is already established and it is both men and women that have created that foundation upon which the great civilizations and cultures are built.

Dmitri_M wrote on Nov 13, 2022, 15:46:

SoloKingMonkey wrote on Nov 13, 2022, 15:21:

Acleacius wrote on Nov 12, 2022, 19:31:
"Promptly judged him guilty over these public allegations"

Is there any evidence, there were no meetings or talks with him before two major game companies parted ways?

Who TF cares how much work he did, if it's true. So no possibility, this is his fault, the work didn't get used?

We live in world where the last 10,000 years, one group is responsible for at least 90% of ALL the Violence.

All the violence In the HISTORY of the FUCKING WORLD!
Brutality, Torture, Rape, Murder and War. ALL OF IT.
One group.
Men

Jesus you're unhinged. Didn't realize this great aggregate site had such a toxic community

Yeah couple of years back this place got flooded with rpgcodex posters, more or less they are now the most consistent regulars

While that's true and I am/was registered there it was probably a decade after I was registered here at Blue's.
It also had to do with the fact, PC games in the US sucked att because fucking ms coopted all the developers to make 'shovelware' for the shitbox.
And there was a surge in EU games, like Gothic. I actually registered at RPGDot/RPGWatch first and followed links to Codex.
But it never had anything to do with enjoying the toxicity, aamof I fought it there, like I do here. See my sig, I hate bullies.
What I said was just a fact, and if some of the men (boys?) in this forum are too much of Effing Snowflakes,
to acknowledge women as equal (hell I think they are better but that wasn't the point of the post) then them.

fakespyder wrote on Nov 13, 2022, 15:30:

Acleacius wrote on Nov 12, 2022, 19:31:
...We live in world where the last 10,000 years, one group is responsible for at least 90% of ALL the Violence...

It's true. Have you seen the gals at a two-for-one shoe sale?

Good god man, that was like an on screen jump scare, careful where you aim!

I got one for you, what was it The Confucius says, Never, Stand or Walk between a Woman and Chocolate!

SoloKingMonkey wrote on Nov 13, 2022, 15:21:

Acleacius wrote on Nov 12, 2022, 19:31:
"Promptly judged him guilty over these public allegations"

Is there any evidence, there were no meetings or talks with him before two major game companies parted ways?

Who TF cares how much work he did, if it's true. So no possibility, this is his fault, the work didn't get used?

We live in world where the last 10,000 years, one group is responsible for at least 90% of ALL the Violence.

All the violence In the HISTORY of the FUCKING WORLD!
Brutality, Torture, Rape, Murder and War. ALL OF IT.
One group.
Men

Jesus you're unhinged. Didn't realize this great aggregate site had such a toxic community

Toxic how so, by stating factual information. You possibly being incapable of recognizing and accepting reality?
Are you sure, you aren't projecting? Did you notice you had no foundational position or counter fact we could check?
Unless you mean a community willing to speak truth and fact, recognize mistakes and try to achieve better for the children of the world.
You mean, that's toxic to your brain, you see how that works, correct?

This comment was edited on Nov 13, 2022, 16:43.

jacobvandy wrote on Nov 12, 2022, 21:26:

Acleacius wrote on Nov 12, 2022, 19:31:
"Promptly judged him guilty over these public allegations"

Is there any evidence, there were no meetings or talks with him before two major game companies parted ways?

That's what he said happened, in the blog post linked below. I guess you may choose to dismiss it outright based on his gender...

There were consequences to their accusations, of course. When Karissa and Kelly made their allegations, I was cut off from almost every studio I was working with.

None of these studios did any investigations I’m aware of. Some didn’t have time (they only had the weekend, and rarely is everyone in a company working on a weekend), or they didn’t take the time.

I say “didn’t have time” because the accusations were made late on a Friday. I believe this may have been done deliberately, since Karissa herself admitted she had delayed her accusations, and furthermore, it’s difficult for companies (especially HR or legal) to respond over a weekend. This allowed Karissa’s and Kelly’s accusations to spread and become viral. For companies overseas I was working for, like Techland (Dying Light 2) and Gato Salvaje (The Waylanders), her accusations effectively hit on a Saturday.

So when Monday morning hit, I received calls and emails, and in many of them, notably Techland and Gato Salvaje, separation agreements and statements had already been drafted before they communicated to me directly.

Nope, I didn't dismiss it, because it's contrary to everything that's happened previously.
I.e. att I recall both companies saying they completed investigations and decided to part ways.
He certainly never disagreed publicly, and in a real sense that is an admission in and of itself.
But if what you say turns out to be true, or evidenced in anyway besides him saying it, then it will worthy of consideration.
You know, sort of the way the law works. When he or someone else says it under oath, then it becomes a possibility.

Burrito of Peace wrote on Nov 12, 2022, 21:14:

Acleacius wrote on Nov 12, 2022, 19:31:
We live in world where the last 10,000 years, one group is responsible for at least 90% of ALL the Violence.

Counterpoint:

90% of all the technological, cultural, societal, and philosophical progress over the last 10,000 years are also due to men*.

*That we know of. It is highly unlikely that women contributed 10% or less over the course of all human history.

Possibly, except I can't see a reason for society, without women being the foundation.
It's certainly worthy debate but the problem is, the ego of man. Is it possible they could accept women are more important?

ududy wrote on Nov 13, 2022, 00:33:

Acleacius wrote on Nov 12, 2022, 19:31:
"Promptly judged him guilty over these public allegations"

Is there any evidence, there were no meetings or talks with him before two major game companies parted ways?

Who TF cares how much work he did, if it's true. So no possibility, this is his fault, the work didn't get used?

We live in world where the last 10,000 years, one group is responsible for at least 90% of ALL the Violence.

All the violence In the HISTORY of the FUCKING WORLD!
Brutality, Torture, Rape, Murder and War. ALL OF IT.
One group.
Men

Wow, that's genius. Are you claiming that all men are a-priori guilty because they are men? That's what you seem to be saying. You like the witch trials very much, just wish that they would have targeted the other gender?

Nope and nope, got anything else. Cause if that's really what you take from the facts, then I'm sure you can't help yourself?

SoloKingMonkey wrote on Nov 13, 2022, 15:21:

Acleacius wrote on Nov 12, 2022, 19:31:
"Promptly judged him guilty over these public allegations"

Is there any evidence, there were no meetings or talks with him before two major game companies parted ways?

Who TF cares how much work he did, if it's true. So no possibility, this is his fault, the work didn't get used?

We live in world where the last 10,000 years, one group is responsible for at least 90% of ALL the Violence.

All the violence In the HISTORY of the FUCKING WORLD!
Brutality, Torture, Rape, Murder and War. ALL OF IT.
One group.
Men

Jesus you're unhinged. Didn't realize this great aggregate site had such a toxic community

Yeah couple of years back this place got flooded with rpgcodex posters, more or less they are now the most consistent regulars

Acleacius wrote on Nov 12, 2022, 19:31:
...We live in world where the last 10,000 years, one group is responsible for at least 90% of ALL the Violence...

It's true. Have you seen the gals at a two-for-one shoe sale?

* REMOVED *

This comment was deleted on Nov 14, 2022, 08:56. Reason: Personal attacks (rule 1)

Beamer wrote on Nov 13, 2022, 10:54:

El Pit wrote on Nov 13, 2022, 02:21:
Societies cannot be based on the judgment of every single person. And usually, people do not have every detail about what happened and judge based on their own feelings and opinions - which is the worst base for judgment.
... ...
Even news are biased because they have to sell and by this filtering "change" our world. We want excitement, even in the news. Good news don't sell and are "boring".
It is complicated with people and it will in my opinion never be easy.

I didn't really read past the first line. Use your own judgment. I'm not saying send him to prison, which is a very high standard. I'm saying use your own judgment for what you do. As humans, we should feel comfortable making personal decisions based upon the evidence at hand. If we don't, why have a brain at all?
.... ...

Thanks El Pit, excellent argumentation.

Beamer, is it you ?
" ... making personal decisions based upon the evidence ... " in an answer where you didn't bother to read the full post ?
Do we bother reading all the evidence available or just "the first line" is enough ?

Beamer wrote on Nov 13, 2022, 10:54:

El Pit wrote on Nov 13, 2022, 02:21:

Beamer wrote on Nov 12, 2022, 22:42:

El Pit wrote on Nov 12, 2022, 18:27:

Beamer wrote on Nov 12, 2022, 17:41:
Courts are exceptionally bad at determined these things. There's rarely evidence, and most victims never come forward for that reason

And your alternative would be?

Using your own judgement instead of just the courts. The courts are fallible, particularly for crimes with no evidence.

Or, well. OJ

CONTENT

I didn't really read past the first line. Use your own judgment.

Thanks. And I stopped there to follow your communication model. Whatever. Let us talk about games instead. Just don't do anything unlawful based on your own judgment, please promise. Thanks.

El Pit wrote on Nov 13, 2022, 02:21:

Beamer wrote on Nov 12, 2022, 22:42:

El Pit wrote on Nov 12, 2022, 18:27:

Beamer wrote on Nov 12, 2022, 17:41:
Courts are exceptionally bad at determined these things. There's rarely evidence, and most victims never come forward for that reason

And your alternative would be?

Using your own judgement instead of just the courts. The courts are fallible, particularly for crimes with no evidence.

Or, well. OJ

Societies cannot be based on the judgment of every single person. And usually, people do not have every detail about what happened and judge based on their own feelings and opinions - which is the worst base for judgment.
There need to be rules in a society like a game that needs to be based on a rulebook. And you need people to enforce these rules in the society and people to judge if other people break the rules. Everything else is anarchy, i.e. what happened on the trees and in the caves a long time ago.
But I do understand that this system is absolutely fallible. Everything with people involved is. Judges are chosen by people who like them because of their personal views. So, in the end you find judges who are biased. But then again, they have to play by the rules or their judgments can be objected.
I do see the problems, too. Who makes the rules? Who changes the rules? Who makes profit because of the rules? And if the judges are the watchers, then who watches those watchers and so on.
Nevertheless - societies need rules and must be able to enforce those rules. Everything else will lead us all back into the caves, heavily armed and afraid of the neighbors and their personal judgments. Legal systems - like democracy - are not perfect by far but the best thing we have invented up to now.
I often find rulings like "release the psychotic criminal, he is healed" very hard to swallow and have mixed feeling about that because it has gone wrong more than once. But we only read about the cases where the bad guy does something evil again, we never read a huge headline about "psychotic criminal healed, died at the age of 84 without ever committing a crime again after release". You see? Even news are biased because they have to sell and by this filtering "change" our world. We want excitement, even in the news. Good news don't sell and are "boring".
It is complicated with people and it will in my opinion never be easy.

I didn't really read past the first line. Use your own judgment. I'm not saying send him to prison, which is a very high standard. I'm saying use your own judgment for what you do. As humans, we should feel comfortable making personal decisions based upon the evidence at hand. If we don't, why have a brain at all?

Personally, I would not want to work with him. That's my own judgment. I also would not want to work with Kevin Spacey, or Michael Jackson, or Chris Brown. None of them were found guilty and sent to prison. All of them would be problems for me, that frankly do not come up.

How many women have accused him?

This whole thing smells funny. Chris doesn’t seem to be stable, and his posts about employer/employees is some severe self-destructive jackassery. That doesn’t mean he’s *also* so self-centered that he doesn’t know when he’s abusing his station, but it’s not an uncommon link. On the other hand, the accuser launched her shit in a way to cause maximum damage before anything would realistically be looked into about it. That part alone leans me away from Chris being in the wrong, BUT she could have also done it that way to make sure it even got noticed at all.

Dunno. Lucky for me, I don’t have to know; my opinion will not alter the outcome whatsoever.