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17.
 
Re: Morning Safety Dance
Aug 23, 2022, 10:12
17.
Re: Morning Safety Dance Aug 23, 2022, 10:12
Aug 23, 2022, 10:12
 
Beamer wrote on Aug 19, 2022, 09:37:
Verno wrote on Aug 19, 2022, 09:08:

Police have an incredibly tough and dangerous job, they have to size up situations that can escalate to life threatening in a heartbeat. People here do not give them enough credit, in the past we have lost a few law enforcement posters because of the one sided conversation that kept happening.

Yes, they have very difficult and dangerous jobs, which is why they have more authority, which, in turn, is why they need more accountability. Instead, they have less accountability than a regular individual. It may be something that's a slow process, but should not be something the regular public just accepts. Accountability is the most important part of policing, and something we've outright lost sight of.

And, to your other points, it's why people want to "defund the police." Yes, it's a dumb term, but it's a cause you find many police chiefs publicly agreed with until, well, until that term showed up. Objectively, as you say, people are not robots. They can be trained to think quickly, but generally, only in one way. Since the 80s, we've largely trained police to kill. That's how they handle most situations. Dave Grossman, amongst others, have made enormous amounts of money increasing the militarization of our police force and teaching them to think like soldiers. Unfortunately, most situations police are in, nearly all, do not require soldiers. They require different kinds of training, and people that take a different perspective under immense pressure. A cop approaching many situations with a gun drawn will only escalate them. Those situations should have someone present with that training, but should not be led by someone with the gun-first mentality. And, again, many chiefs of police supported this in the early-10s. You can find plenty of clips of them complaining that the police were asked to handle far too much, and that there needed to be funding for non-violent calls, which are the bulk of police calls, separate from the violent calls.

But also yes, I do not think you can find a cop that hasn't covered for a bad cop, or defended a bad action by an otherwise good cop to shield that cop from repercussions. My hometown has next to no violence. Several years back, a cop went to the wrong house and killed the dog in the backyard. A mistake, though a fairly horrific one. And an easily avoidable one. He forgot the house number he was going to. Seems like something that any of us would get in significant trouble for. If a UPS driver went to the wrong house and killed the pet, well, he'd be fired, prosecuted, and in significant trouble. The police force refused to penalize the officer here. It's the only time in the history of the town that an officer had to use a gun spur of the moment. It feels like an obvious opportunity for the police to show accountability and give some penalty for the officer making an avoidable mistake and killing a pet. They refused. The officers were all angry at the suggestion and wrote letters to the town board defending him. It's a minor thing, but even that shows how our policing institution avoids all accountability and rewards officers for never, ever allowing one of their own to be penalized. At a greater scale, Daniel Shaver's murderer retired with a pension, which was hidden from the public until a reporter sniffed it out.

The dialogue may be one-sided, but that's in response to the power dynamic, which is one-sided in the opposite direction. I think everyone here would admit that most cops are good people as individuals, but the police are rotten as an institution. The examples may be fewer than the examples of good, by a wide margin, but they're also extreme, still common, and endlessly defended by people who can legally kill any one of us and likely get away with it. Especially if they turn their bodycams off, which is still perfectly acceptable in virtually all jurisdictions.
Bodycams have not made a difference.
Neither has bystanders recording video on cellphones.
Only after the fact has the above come into play.

On average LEO’s kill 3 people every day in the USA.

What do you have when 100 good cops don’t turn in 1 bad cop. https://imgur.com/dqPmmjK
- At this point, Windows is the OS equivalent of Stockholm Syndrome. -
Burrito of Peace
Avatar 58135
16.
 
Re: Morning Safety Dance
Aug 19, 2022, 09:37
16.
Re: Morning Safety Dance Aug 19, 2022, 09:37
Aug 19, 2022, 09:37
 
Verno wrote on Aug 19, 2022, 09:08:

Police have an incredibly tough and dangerous job, they have to size up situations that can escalate to life threatening in a heartbeat. People here do not give them enough credit, in the past we have lost a few law enforcement posters because of the one sided conversation that kept happening.

Yes, they have very difficult and dangerous jobs, which is why they have more authority, which, in turn, is why they need more accountability. Instead, they have less accountability than a regular individual. It may be something that's a slow process, but should not be something the regular public just accepts. Accountability is the most important part of policing, and something we've outright lost sight of.

And, to your other points, it's why people want to "defund the police." Yes, it's a dumb term, but it's a cause you find many police chiefs publicly agreed with until, well, until that term showed up. Objectively, as you say, people are not robots. They can be trained to think quickly, but generally, only in one way. Since the 80s, we've largely trained police to kill. That's how they handle most situations. Dave Grossman, amongst others, have made enormous amounts of money increasing the militarization of our police force and teaching them to think like soldiers. Unfortunately, most situations police are in, nearly all, do not require soldiers. They require different kinds of training, and people that take a different perspective under immense pressure. A cop approaching many situations with a gun drawn will only escalate them. Those situations should have someone present with that training, but should not be led by someone with the gun-first mentality. And, again, many chiefs of police supported this in the early-10s. You can find plenty of clips of them complaining that the police were asked to handle far too much, and that there needed to be funding for non-violent calls, which are the bulk of police calls, separate from the violent calls.

But also yes, I do not think you can find a cop that hasn't covered for a bad cop, or defended a bad action by an otherwise good cop to shield that cop from repercussions. My hometown has next to no violence. Several years back, a cop went to the wrong house and killed the dog in the backyard. A mistake, though a fairly horrific one. And an easily avoidable one. He forgot the house number he was going to. Seems like something that any of us would get in significant trouble for. If a UPS driver went to the wrong house and killed the pet, well, he'd be fired, prosecuted, and in significant trouble. The police force refused to penalize the officer here. It's the only time in the history of the town that an officer had to use a gun spur of the moment. It feels like an obvious opportunity for the police to show accountability and give some penalty for the officer making an avoidable mistake and killing a pet. They refused. The officers were all angry at the suggestion and wrote letters to the town board defending him. It's a minor thing, but even that shows how our policing institution avoids all accountability and rewards officers for never, ever allowing one of their own to be penalized. At a greater scale, Daniel Shaver's murderer retired with a pension, which was hidden from the public until a reporter sniffed it out.

The dialogue may be one-sided, but that's in response to the power dynamic, which is one-sided in the opposite direction. I think everyone here would admit that most cops are good people as individuals, but the police are rotten as an institution. The examples may be fewer than the examples of good, by a wide margin, but they're also extreme, still common, and endlessly defended by people who can legally kill any one of us and likely get away with it. Especially if they turn their bodycams off, which is still perfectly acceptable in virtually all jurisdictions.
15.
 
Re: Morning Safety Dance
Aug 19, 2022, 09:08
Verno
 
15.
Re: Morning Safety Dance Aug 19, 2022, 09:08
Aug 19, 2022, 09:08
 Verno
 
Jivaro wrote on Aug 18, 2022, 03:26:
The cops have absolutely nobody to blame for their image problem but themselves. Period. Stop shooting innocent people and things might start looking up.

I doubt this will happen despite being an admirable goal. First of all many people place themselves in dangerous positions with the police and police cannot possibly de-escalate every situation. Police forces are comprised of human beings and not robots so mistakes will happen too. What is more important to me is accountability and that has started to shift with the prevalence of body-cams which are becoming more and more numerous. You can find a lot of videos on Youtube now where "bad apples" are being weeded out successfully, police reform has already begun. Check out "Audit the audit" or Code Blue Cam for some examples sometime. It's a work in progress, you can't just flick a switch. The police now do a lot more outreach and many departments have automatic investigations of officer involved shootings and publish all related info including body cams. There is a lot more transparency and accountability these days than there was ten years ago. That said, incidents like Uvalde where they circle the wagons are infuriating and reduce public trust.

Police have an incredibly tough and dangerous job, they have to size up situations that can escalate to life threatening in a heartbeat. People here do not give them enough credit, in the past we have lost a few law enforcement posters because of the one sided conversation that kept happening.
Playing: Total War: Warhammer 3 Immortal Empires, Elden Ring replay, Into The Breach Advanced Edition
Watching: The Old Man, Arcane, House of the Dragon
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14.
 
Re: Morning Safety Dance
Aug 18, 2022, 11:45
14.
Re: Morning Safety Dance Aug 18, 2022, 11:45
Aug 18, 2022, 11:45
 
My biggest problem with cops is that people put the onus on them to change. This effectively places everyone else in a victim status, and removes (intellectually) all real power to affect a lasting positive change for the better.

Live your life in such a way that the delegation of violence to a third party of violence-lovers (cops) is entirely unnecessary. Learn where cops get their authority. Hint, it is not from the government, ab initio. Everything a cop can lawfully do, a regular man can lawfully do, better. How would you go about protecting your family from violent offenders? Theft? Kidnapping? This is not a rhetorical question. There are very real, actionable, effective steps individuals and families can (and do) take to avoid these things without dependence on violence-lifers.

Until individuals and families in a culture learn to identify and remediate the precursors to violence, their reliance on the violence cabal will not wane. Cops won't ever solve the problem OF cops. They have already dedicated their very identities (and years of training) to the notion that violence is the best remedy to a whole host of social ailments.

Defunding is a nice idea, but only if the need/dependence on police is gone FIRST. Otherwise it is a terrible idea.

I don't want cops to merely 'do better'. I'd prefer to see them vanish from the face of the earth as an idea. But maybe that is taking it a bit too far. I'd be happy with police forces being reduced to a mere 10% or less of their current numbers by drastically reducing the need. Every cop should have a real job they aspire to once their position is rendered moot.

This comment was edited on Aug 18, 2022, 12:36.
13.
 
Re: Morning Safety Dance
Aug 18, 2022, 03:26
Jivaro
 
13.
Re: Morning Safety Dance Aug 18, 2022, 03:26
Aug 18, 2022, 03:26
 Jivaro
 
The cops have absolutely nobody to blame for their image problem but themselves. Period. Stop shooting innocent people and things might start looking up.
Avatar 55841
12.
 
Re: Morning Safety Dance
Aug 17, 2022, 22:01
12.
Re: Morning Safety Dance Aug 17, 2022, 22:01
Aug 17, 2022, 22:01
 
I'll have sympathy for good cops when they stop protecting bad cops.

It isn't unfair. What's unfair is that we can't hold bad cops accountable, and the "good" cops uphold that "brotherhood."
11.
 
Re: Morning Safety Dance
Aug 17, 2022, 21:23
11.
Re: Morning Safety Dance Aug 17, 2022, 21:23
Aug 17, 2022, 21:23
 
The Half Elf wrote on Aug 17, 2022, 19:56:
BoP in this day and age where entire familys were killed (like here in Kentucky over several residences), monthly school shooting, etc, how far fetched is it for a police department which gets txt messages, emails, phone calls about horrible situations going on at a home, not respond aptly and in force to the reported threat? There are some amazing people in Law Enforcement, but all we hear or see about is when cops do bad things. It's a bit unfair :/

It's a funny thing to me and I don't mean funny as in humorous. My grandmother, my mother, and my uncle were all in law enforcement. The universal message all three had to say about cops? "Do not trust cops. They are not your friends and they do not exist to protect or help you." These are three people, from three different areas of the country, with a combined career that exceeds 100 years expressing the same opinion. So I wouldn't say that police behaving badly is either unique or new. My own experience with cops ranges from mediocre to terrible. I have mentioned it in the past but I get pulled over in my Lightning far more frequently than random chance would indicate is likely. Not for any moving violation but for racial profiling. My truck is low (legal), her windows are tinted dark (again, legally) and she's a loud bitch (also legal). As soon as my window rolls down and they see a big, old, white dude in the driver's seat, out comes the song and dance routine of why I was pulled over. Not once have I been issued so much as a warning. I was never, ever pulled over in my last truck and there were many times I probably would have deserved it. That's just one example. I could mention how the cops slow rolled this house when I had work men going in and out because they were replacing all the countertops and flooring. Tile saws, granite mills, and other obvious signs of construction were present in my driveway. It wasn't until my white ass stepped out of the shadow of the garage that the cop suddenly whipped a U-turn and accelerated out of my dead end street as fast as possible. That's another example.

So, from my experience, the shit cops get now is more than fair. There is ample evidence of decades of shitty behavior and now people just aren't willing to put up with it. Nor should they. If cops want fair, they can start by actively and publicly rooting out the "bad apples" and their unions can permanently bar those same "bad apples" from seeking employment in the next town over. Derek Chauvin's conviction was a miracle, not a commonality. It is on the cops to rebuild trust with the community, not the other way around.

But, since you mentioned what seems like a surge in violence, do we really need to point out Uvalde where a mass shooting, caught live on camera, was taking place and they stood around outside with their thumbs up their asses? Or, specifically, the cop who stood in the hallway while the shooting was happening dicking around on social media on his phone? Or how about in Sandy Hook when the cops allowed people in to the scene who were neither forensic investigator nor actively part of the response that contaminated evidence?

Do we need to discuss the recent Supreme Court decision that ruled, nationally, that cops have no obligation to preserve lives or a duty of care? Or that "qualified immunity" is essentially a "get out of jail free" card?

In a hostile situation, the last thing you want to do is run in blind, guns blazing. That's how people, innocent people, die. How many times did cops raid the wrong house? Each of those links, by the way, are for separate incidents. How is that remotely acceptable?

That's my problem. Cops resort to assaulting homes and people without any kind of information verification or situational awareness. An 18 year old grunt in the Army has better training that that. "Not breaching and randomly shooting" is covered in Basic.

If we can trust teenagers and young adults with understanding that basic concept, why are we holding cops to a different standard? Especially when most of them will never, ever see any sort of combat whatsoever? Why can I trust a Marine Rifleman or an Army Infantryman to not randomly break in my door, shoot my dog, and possibly shoot me but I can't say the same about cops? Why isn't de-escalation the de-facto standard? How many of these raids stopped an actual active shooter versus how many were the wrong house? Jesus, we had a cop in Dallas who entered the wrong apartment, shot the legal occupant dead (who was just chilling on the couch eating his ice cream) because she mistook it for her own apartment. I don't know about you but never in my long life have I ever mistook someone else's home for my own and that's with sometimes not sleeping for days. How can I not expect a cop to get that right?

So, no, there is zero room for tolerance in my world for the cops in the US to have a "shoot first, figure everything out after" mentality.
"Just take a look around you, what do you see? Pain, suffering, and misery." -Black Sabbath, Killing Yourself to Live.
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10.
 
Re: Morning Safety Dance
Aug 17, 2022, 21:13
10.
Re: Morning Safety Dance Aug 17, 2022, 21:13
Aug 17, 2022, 21:13
 
RedEye9 wrote on Aug 17, 2022, 19:35:
But to blame it on Mandarin Twittler is a bit of a stretch.

I'm not blaming him, granted the crazies were there already, but they were never so much of a problem before the Drumpf movement emboldened them. The choices and actions of those crazies are entirely on them tho, not Drumpf.

On the other hand, he certainly provided a spark that got them out of the closet.

I guess if it wasn't for that part of history, something else would've come up between then and some hypothetical future to get em out anyway and now we know and can start trying to fix the mess wherehas when you're mostly oblivious to a problem you can't even begin to think about a fix. There's at least that.
9.
 
Re: Morning Safety Dance
Aug 17, 2022, 20:09
9.
Re: Morning Safety Dance Aug 17, 2022, 20:09
Aug 17, 2022, 20:09
 
Simon Says wrote on Aug 17, 2022, 18:22:
This is not just "Murica"...

Cool.

But the LGBTQ+ incidents in question is not what I was specifically responding to. If you look at the post I quoted and my response to it, which of those two entries referred specifically and solely to the incidents in the linked article? Zero, by my count.

In addition, can you name any other first world country in the world which has as many SWAT-esque related wrongful breaches and deaths due to unverified information as the US? Can you name any other first world country that has the same "Us vs Them, thin blue line frat bro bullshit, we're pissing ourselves in fear all the time because everyone including children are going to kill us" mentality that the police in the US display in overabundant examples? Do cops in other first world countries routinely shoot well-secured dogs because the cops were annoyed that the dog was barking at them?

Perhaps they do and I, in my poor, uneducated state, have simply not been exposed to them but what I do know is that cops resorting to ultra-violence as often as possible is a distinctly American "tradition".
"Just take a look around you, what do you see? Pain, suffering, and misery." -Black Sabbath, Killing Yourself to Live.
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8.
 
Re: Morning Safety Dance
Aug 17, 2022, 19:56
8.
Re: Morning Safety Dance Aug 17, 2022, 19:56
Aug 17, 2022, 19:56
 
Burrito of Peace wrote on Aug 17, 2022, 13:24:
If the cops weren't a paramilitary organization with delusions that every McNeighborhood is a war zone, I would surmise we would have a lot less deadly swatting incidences. It would also be lovely if every single one of these dicks who thinks this is a funny "prank" were charged with attempted murder. However, given how easy it is to obfuscate one's identity, I recognize that only the very stupid would be caught.


BoP in this day and age where entire familys were killed (like here in Kentucky over several residences), monthly school shooting, etc, how far fetched is it for a police department which gets txt messages, emails, phone calls about horrible situations going on at a home, not respond aptly and in force to the reported threat? There are some amazing people in Law Enforcement, but all we hear or see about is when cops do bad things. It's a bit unfair :/
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7.
 
Re: Morning Safety Dance
Aug 17, 2022, 19:35
7.
Re: Morning Safety Dance Aug 17, 2022, 19:35
Aug 17, 2022, 19:35
 
Yes, it's serious, I'm glad we can agree on that.
But to blame it on Mandarin Twittler is a bit of a stretch. And believe me, I'll be the first to blame that piece of shit if my shoelaces get untied or if I have a really stinky fart in an elevator. (At least I was on the right side of history when it came to that piece of shit.)
45 had nothing to do with the December 2017 swatting by Tyler R. Barriss where Andrew Finch, 28, was shot and killed by police outside his Kansas home in 2017.
Because of all things, he was pulling his sweatpants up.
- At this point, Windows is the OS equivalent of Stockholm Syndrome. -
Burrito of Peace
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6.
 
Re: Morning Safety Dance
Aug 17, 2022, 18:22
6.
Re: Morning Safety Dance Aug 17, 2022, 18:22
Aug 17, 2022, 18:22
 
Burrito of Peace wrote on Aug 17, 2022, 14:03:
theglaze wrote on Aug 17, 2022, 13:50:
It's astoundingly bizarre to me, that an unverified caller can fabricate an entire story and escalate it with no presentation of evidence, so police break and enter into private property with intent to neutralize with violence.

Welcome to America. Your first time here?

It also happened to a trans in London, Canada a mere 12 days ago: youtube.com/watch?v=UzOwDuazF2w

It happened to Europeans and Asians too ( look it up or just read the article AND follow the links provided ).

It happens everywhere mate, everywhere and most of those targeted are LGBTQ+.

It's clear persecution by crazies who wouldn't had dared just a few years ago, emboldened Drumpf and the global resurgence of "ethno nationalists" ( Nazis ), fascists, bigots and extreme right wing nutters who were themselves emboldened by Drumpf.

This is not just "Murica", this is global and this is serious.

"First they came for LGBTQ+..."

This comment was edited on Aug 17, 2022, 18:40.
5.
 
Re: Morning Safety Dance
Aug 17, 2022, 14:03
5.
Re: Morning Safety Dance Aug 17, 2022, 14:03
Aug 17, 2022, 14:03
 
theglaze wrote on Aug 17, 2022, 13:50:
It's astoundingly bizarre to me, that an unverified caller can fabricate an entire story and escalate it with no presentation of evidence, so police break and enter into private property with intent to neutralize with violence.

Welcome to America. Your first time here?
"Just take a look around you, what do you see? Pain, suffering, and misery." -Black Sabbath, Killing Yourself to Live.
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4.
 
Re: Morning Safety Dance
Aug 17, 2022, 13:50
4.
Re: Morning Safety Dance Aug 17, 2022, 13:50
Aug 17, 2022, 13:50
 
...swatting attacks are conducted by anonymous persons making prank calls to police...
It's astoundingly bizarre to me, that an unverified caller can fabricate an entire story and escalate it with no presentation of evidence, so police break and enter into private property with intent to neutralize with violence.
3.
 
Re: Morning Safety Dance
Aug 17, 2022, 13:45
3.
Re: Morning Safety Dance Aug 17, 2022, 13:45
Aug 17, 2022, 13:45
 
RedEye9 wrote on Aug 17, 2022, 13:34:
Gotta start somewhere.

True, but the cynical part of me thinks it will just cause those who remain to learn how to obfuscate their identity when they wouldn't have previously which makes it harder in the long run.

RedEye9 wrote on Aug 17, 2022, 13:34:
I prefer swatting on onlyfans, or is it spank.πŸ€—πŸ’πŸ¦πŸ¦§πŸ΅

Depends on how hard the strike is. There's swatting, spanking, and beating in degrees of pain magnitude.
"Just take a look around you, what do you see? Pain, suffering, and misery." -Black Sabbath, Killing Yourself to Live.
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2.
 
Re: Morning Safety Dance
Aug 17, 2022, 13:34
2.
Re: Morning Safety Dance Aug 17, 2022, 13:34
Aug 17, 2022, 13:34
 
only the very stupid would be caught
Gotta start somewhere.

I prefer swatting on onlyfans, or is it spank.πŸ€—πŸ’πŸ¦πŸ¦§πŸ΅
- At this point, Windows is the OS equivalent of Stockholm Syndrome. -
Burrito of Peace
Avatar 58135
1.
 
Re: Morning Safety Dance
Aug 17, 2022, 13:24
1.
Re: Morning Safety Dance Aug 17, 2022, 13:24
Aug 17, 2022, 13:24
 
If the cops weren't a paramilitary organization with delusions that every McNeighborhood is a war zone, I would surmise we would have a lot less deadly swatting incidences. It would also be lovely if every single one of these dicks who thinks this is a funny "prank" were charged with attempted murder. However, given how easy it is to obfuscate one's identity, I recognize that only the very stupid would be caught.
"Just take a look around you, what do you see? Pain, suffering, and misery." -Black Sabbath, Killing Yourself to Live.
Avatar 21247
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