Kosumo wrote on Jun 20, 2022, 02:07:
If it's not for you, don't buy or play it.

That is wonderful and great in a perfect world.

Unfortunately we live on this planet and there are psychos that feed off the fantasy. This type of game level isn't the cause of their sickness but it inspires and feeds their fantasies.

This is very dangerous for society.

SimplyMonk wrote on Jun 20, 2022, 02:28:

Kosumo wrote on Jun 20, 2022, 02:07:
Are you saying that they are promoting shooting up a night club?

I think the accusation is more the are trying to capitalize on the anniversary of a tragic event which at best is a morally grey area. It is a SWAT game though so technically you are trying to prevent a tragedy. Could just be bad timing on the developers part though. Mass shootings are so common in the US that almost every day is the anniversary of one.

Except that whole line of argument is based on a lie. The map was already in the game prior to June 12th, is only in the supporter edition, not the main game and all they did was finalize the artwork in the map which was a small part of the giant update that happened to release on the 12th. It's also not based on Pulse, isn't a gay club, doesn't have any anti-gay ideology involved, but people need something to be outraged about, so I guess this is it for this week.

Quinn wrote on Jun 20, 2022, 02:08:

War is full of atrocities; of war crimes. Open war is the worst happening in the world. Yes, worse than any shooting of smaller proportions. Yet we glorify it in entertain and nobody bats an eye. THAT was my point. Not that "shooting nazi's" is as bad as "shooting children" as some here wanted to imply I said.

I would not agree that war is "full of atrocities" but I would agree that atrocities occur during war. I think it is important to highlight the distinctions between the different types of war. Total war is different than a containment war, for example

As a culture we glorify war because of the propaganda of it. "We" are the heroes and "they" are the villains. Who "they" are is irrelevant, it is all a part of the process of othering. Look at what is happening today with referring to Russians as "orks". Meanwhile there occurs the same process on the opposing side. Also, war tends to have a sentimental and emotional value investment from the population. Killing "Jerry" or "Krauts" was necessary to prevent the spread of fascism. Killing "gooks" was to the prevent the spread of communism. So forth and so on.

On the other hand, there is no such emotional or sentimental buy in when it comes to domestic terrorists slaughtering civilians. We react with abhorrent horror at these events because they fail to fulfill any perceived necessary role.

Quinn wrote on Jun 20, 2022, 02:08:
With regards to this current subject: if we start whining about atrocities depicted in games, maybe we forget to focus on the fact it's too goddamn easy in the US to make such a fantasy reality (like by just ordering guns online). 🤷

Those are not interconnected or correlated with one another in any way. You are comparing peanut butter and fender washers.

Also, you are factually incorrect when it comes to "just ordering guns online". I take it you have never done so. I have recently shown here at BN that I like going shooting. I have ordered a lot of guns online. Here is usually the process:

1. Find firearm, buy firearm.
2. Firearm is shipped to your local FFL.
3A. Your FFL makes you fill out a bunch of paperwork.
3B. Your FFL will usually run your data through state and federal checks online for a "go/no go" response.
4. Depending on the firearm, even some rifles, you might be waiting a while either due to a state/federal mandated wait list or because that specific firearm requires a cooling off period (like, say, an M249) while your own weapon class level is reported to and approved/denied by the government.
5. Then, after all that, you pick up your firearm from the FFL.

Private sales are a whole different can of wax and are a state by state deal.

But at no point do I ever get to go to, say, Palmetto State Armory's website, order my gun, and have it just show up at my house with mags fully loaded with rounds and ready to go.

You do not have the option to buy firearms interstate like you are placing an order on Amazon.

If this game was realistic, the cops would get local career advancement points for:

* kicking every possible mass shooting decision as far up the chain of command as possible
* requiring concensus from 90% of the departmental administrative officals before acting
* doing nothing because Legally They Don't Have To

SimplyMonk wrote on Jun 20, 2022, 02:28:

Kosumo wrote on Jun 20, 2022, 02:07:
Are you saying that they are promoting shooting up a night club?

I think the accusation is more the are trying to capitalize on the anniversary of a tragic event which at best is a morally grey area. It is a SWAT game though so technically you are trying to prevent a tragedy. Could just be bad timing on the developers part though. Mass shootings are so common in the US that almost every day is the anniversary of one.

You are correct. "Are you saying they're trying to promote mass shootings" is such a weird and, frankly, weasely jump. Standard internet fighting. "I'm going to read something sensible and, in order to feel better, take the worst faith interpretation of it!"

Again, as I keep saying, Fox News is going pretty hard on "gun violence is caused by video games," so it seems a particularly pertinent time to be mindful of these things.

Kosumo wrote on Jun 20, 2022, 02:07:
Are you saying that they are promoting shooting up a night club?

I think the accusation is more the are trying to capitalize on the anniversary of a tragic event which at best is a morally grey area. It is a SWAT game though so technically you are trying to prevent a tragedy. Could just be bad timing on the developers part though. Mass shootings are so common in the US that almost every day is the anniversary of one.

Burrito of Peace wrote on Jun 19, 2022, 19:46:

Quinn wrote on Jun 19, 2022, 19:01:
And even if that is the case? Why wouldn't World War games be ten times worse then? I'm not asking rhetorical questions here. I just wonder why making games (and movies?) about these atrocities should be considered controversial while we all gleefully bathe in game/movie/tv-show Saving Private COD #52.

Its almost (almost) the same thing as the newish trend of basically calling everyone a racist: it diverts the attention away from what actually matters. In the analogy's case that would be the actual racists. In this subject's case it would be the US gun laws -- after all, it's not the problem that psychotic people can play out their fantasy in pixel plaza, but that they can order an assault rifle online.

If you cannot see the difference between declared war by a sovereign state and fought with professional armies and domestic terrorists gunning down unarmed civilians, I'm not sure we can have much of a conversation.

And what are we using as the measurement for "worse"? Objective ethics? Emotional response? Body count? How many rounds were fired? The phase of the moon and the alignment of the planets?

I'm not sure what accusations of racism and the ability to purchase a firearm have in common. I didn't sleep well last night so perhaps I am just slow today but I do not see how they are related in any fashion.

War is full of atrocities; of war crimes. Open war is the worst happening in the world. Yes, worse than any shooting of smaller proportions. Yet we glorify it in entertain and nobody bats an eye. THAT was my point. Not that "shooting nazi's" is as bad as "shooting children" as some here wanted to imply I said. I am often accused of having a discussion in bad faith, but just look at how most here reply to me.
It maybe answers the enigma why I am blocked by a relatively low amount of people compared to some others here.

My racism analogy tried to convey that it's not always smart to make a certain problem too big. If you call everyone a racist, the real racists can hide in plain sight. With regards to this current subject: if we start whining about atrocities depicted in games, maybe we forget to focus on the fact it's too goddamn easy in the US to make such a fantasy reality (like by just ordering guns online). 🤷

There is no "dead innocent people" it's a game.

No real person is dead, it's just make believe computer game.

If it's not for you, don't buy or play it.

Are you saying that they are promoting shooting up a night club?

Dacron wrote on Jun 19, 2022, 22:25:
Remember, no Russian.

Is part of a multi billion dollar series.

If you think it is tasteless, don't buy it. Don't force others to copy you, they can decide for themselves.

As I said in the other thread, the narrative choice here was very different. No Russian is about showing how the "good guys," and possibly the player, are complicit. If you didn't know it was coming it is truly shocking.

This is a bunch of dead innocent people as window dressing in something aping a real life event released on the anniversary

There's no good reason to have the bodies everywhere. Other games don't include victims for a reason

Dacron wrote on Jun 19, 2022, 22:25:
Remember, no Russian.

Is part of a multi billion dollar series.

If you think it is tasteless, don't buy it. Don't force others to copy you, they can decide for themselves.

Do you think that opinions thrice compel you to act or decide contrary to your beliefs?.
Do you feel so weak?
Beware, the conservative mind victimizes itself as being *forced* -a form of aggresion/ attack/persecution- by something as ethereal as a different idea.

Remember, no Russian.

Is part of a multi billion dollar series.

If you think it is tasteless, don't buy it. Don't force others to copy you, they can decide for themselves.

Quboid wrote on Jun 19, 2022, 22:07:
Why are dead Nazi soldiers ok, but dead school children not? I can't figure this out!!1!

There’s at least one here who doesn’t get the beautiful sarcasm.In the future be sure to add the /s, they’re a little slow.

Why are dead Nazi soldiers ok, but dead school children not? I can't figure this out!!1!

There is a valid discussion to be had, but I'm not sure that was framed ideally...

Burrito of Peace wrote on Jun 19, 2022, 19:46:
The phase of the moon and the alignment of the planets?

I'd like to see this one tried.

Another instance of confusing whataboutism, a beloved tool for blocking and impeding:

**** It's all hypocrisy, ya hear ! ****
Or, all is relative and complex, what's the use of trying to address one thing at a time, it's too late, f@cked up beyond positive stance, decision or action.

So.
Let's just do and say nothing.

Quinn wrote on Jun 19, 2022, 19:01:
And even if that is the case? Why wouldn't World War games be ten times worse then? I'm not asking rhetorical questions here. I just wonder why making games (and movies?) about these atrocities should be considered controversial while we all gleefully bathe in game/movie/tv-show Saving Private COD #52.

Its almost (almost) the same thing as the newish trend of basically calling everyone a racist: it diverts the attention away from what actually matters. In the analogy's case that would be the actual racists. In this subject's case it would be the US gun laws -- after all, it's not the problem that psychotic people can play out their fantasy in pixel plaza, but that they can order an assault rifle online.

If you cannot see the difference between declared war by a sovereign state and fought with professional armies and domestic terrorists gunning down unarmed civilians, I'm not sure we can have much of a conversation.

And what are we using as the measurement for "worse"? Objective ethics? Emotional response? Body count? How many rounds were fired? The phase of the moon and the alignment of the planets?

I'm not sure what accusations of racism and the ability to purchase a firearm have in common. I didn't sleep well last night so perhaps I am just slow today but I do not see how they are related in any fashion.

All I require is consistency. Whatever your platform's rules, they must be applied consistently. Youtube is terrible about that. Steam seems to have a bit of trouble with it from time to time, but they're mostly okay.

Burrito of Peace wrote on Jun 19, 2022, 18:25:
I have taken the Occam's Razor approach on this particular topic. It's probably exactly what the developers says it is as the level has existed prior to the stink for some time now.

I don't think there is any particular malfeasance with intent on the developer's part to trade on any specific mass shooting.

And even if that is the case? Why wouldn't World War games be ten times worse then? I'm not asking rhetorical questions here. I just wonder why making games (and movies?) about these atrocities should be considered controversial while we all gleefully bathe in game/movie/tv-show Saving Private COD #52.

Its almost (almost) the same thing as the newish trend of basically calling everyone a racist: it diverts the attention away from what actually matters. In the analogy's case that would be the actual racists. In this subject's case it would be the US gun laws -- after all, it's not the problem that psychotic people can play out their fantasy in pixel plaza, but that they can order an assault rifle online.

I have taken the Occam's Razor approach on this particular topic. It's probably exactly what the developers says it is as the level has existed prior to the stink for some time now.

I don't think there is any particular malfeasance with intent on the developer's part to trade on any specific mass shooting.

Hardline Mike wrote on Jun 19, 2022, 17:08:

Wallshadows wrote on Jun 19, 2022, 16:55:
Turns out Jack Thompson was right all along.

Mass shootings cause violent video games?

Deserving of the Crafty Sith Award