Acleacius wrote on Nov 30, 2021, 16:36:
Obviously my point is market manipulation.

How is it market manipulation, exactly?

No idea what that means, it was wrong when playstation did it, it was wrong with m$ did it and it's wrong when epicfail does it.

And yet no one complained until Epic did it. Strange.

Hell, it might even fit under the Rico Act.

IT'S NEVER RICO.

saluk wrote on Nov 30, 2021, 14:39:
Lutris exists and works pretty well. It's kind of mind boggling to me that gog doesn't double down and support linux better. They have always catered to a niche of gamers, it seems like linux would be a good fit to target. But no, steam supports linux better.

You saw the part where GOG is basically underwater profit-wise, yes? How are they supposed to "support Linux better?"

Acleacius wrote on Nov 30, 2021, 12:44:

They constantly give away games which undermines the game economy.

Game sales have what's called a long tail. So offering for free even fairly recent AAA games like Control isn't going to result in many lost sales. In fact, I'd bet that the publisher probably gets more money from Epic than if they'd just continued to collect dribs and drabs over a year. Since that publisher gets paid, how is it affecting the economy exactly?

Laughing Man wrote on Nov 30, 2021, 07:09:
People here don't get those prices are set by the developer and that no store controls it. They opt-in to sales and choose the discount. Steam and the other stores are simply a showcase unless they developed the game themselves.

Absolutely mind blown how clueless most of you are about how these things work yet you still feel the need to blame the people not at fault because of your ignorance.

Except that Steam has a "Most Favored Nation" clause in all of its contracts: you can't sell for less than the Steam price on any other store. Steam gets away with it BC they are a monopoly, and no one can afford to tell them to fuck off.

I like Steam because it is a one-stop-shop for video games (e.g., ratings, community forums, opt-in beta, achievements, cloud saves, workshop, tons of sales, etc.). The only thing I wish it offered were trainers. But the CheatHappens folks figured out how to detect platform-installed games via their browser app that I am sure they will integrate into the upcoming All-In-One app with even more support.

Btw, no intention of coming across like a dick to you, just I can't abide corporate fuckery.

Beamer wrote on Nov 30, 2021, 09:10:

Baenwort wrote on Nov 30, 2021, 08:04:

jdreyer wrote on Nov 29, 2021, 23:56:

The Half Elf wrote on Nov 29, 2021, 23:41:

El Pit wrote on Nov 29, 2021, 18:51:
If it's not on Steam, people won't buy it. Not even DRM free. It must be on Steam. THIS is a pseudo-monopoly that people actually want and seem to like. Which is bad for competitors. But people seem to care more about having their stuff in one place than about DRM.

How is a pseudeo-monopoly when people choose the best option?

Steam forces a MFN clause in its contracts, so no publisher can offer a lower price on GoG than they have on Steam. That's monopolistic behavior, because no one can afford to tell Steam to fuck off.

I'd say the problem is the other way around.

It makes some sense in the physical world to price markets differently due to the cost of transport, handling, and other stock related costs. It also makes sense due to different marketing spends due to the limited reach of advertising distribution.

In a digital store none of those apply. You should have to offer it at the same price at all same language store fronts. (Due to marketing costs being different in each language you advertise in)

Why should the store front pay the cost of the game companies price trickery to increase profits?

Regional pricing isn't entirely around cost. It's also around ability to pay

Asking someone to pay $60 in a nation where the average weekly take-home is $60 isnt going to sell you many games in that region. Instead, people there will pirate. This has a triple effect of legitimizing piracy in that nation as the only way to play, making piracy more accessible globally, and creating major multiplayer and version issues.

So the other option is to price games lower everywhere. Have you seen how long the credits are for AAA games these days? Can't have 400 people in Montreal and California making a game that you sell for $15. The budgeting doesn't work.

So we have games priced according to what people can pay.

It makes sense. If you don't like it, maybe you're the type that thinks a flat tax makes sense. I disagree. Everyone is better in the current system. People in wealthier counties both get more advanced/bigger games, as well as an industry that pays their peers to make games, and people in less wealthy nations aren't excluded from the hobby entirely by being absolutely priced out.

I don't think flat tax is good.

I don't think games that cost $60 are better than $15 dollar ones.

I think if this was about reducing piracy or doing good for poor people they would donate keys and help NGOs with a gaming focus.

I don't think a price difference between Steam and GoG, Epic, and CDKeys are due to trying to sell low priced access to games subsidized by first world consumers. (I do think direct giving and NGO systems are better than a subsidies) that is what I am arguing against. Not region locking (which is what you are describing) .

As someone who lives below the median income for my community I wait on average 2 years to get a game. As a adult this isn't a problem as I'm not trying to play with friends who only want the latest and biggest games and don't want to revisit "old" ones. This keeps gaming in my reach. I'm more impacted by the death of the used game market being caused by digital store fronts.

Obviously my point is market manipulation.

If so why do so many refuse to use other stores and why was it considered a shit store to begin with.
Right, because coping the market leader than attacking them because their store is a failure without manipulating the market.
And they are able to manipulate the market only because they have billions of dollars to throw at it.
Writing it off as a business expenses for tax papers to pickup the free giveaway tab.
Not sure why you don't get what market manipulation is or if you do, why you condone it.

No idea what that means, it was wrong when playstation did it, it was wrong with m$ did it and it's wrong when epicfail does it.
Doesn't seem confusing to me, if any time a billionaire whats to manipulate the market to 'false boon' or crash a stock for competition/overthrow
or worst a market. It boggles the mind why you condone this, if for gifts, what would you take to support crashing one of the 196 countries in the world.

Sure it does, they are bribing a company with cash, gifts or gratuities to manipulate and control the market.
Then extorting gamers to buy it from epicfailure if they want to play a game. Hell, it might even fit under the Rico Act.
Once again very clear, wrong always.

MoreLuckThanSkill wrote on Nov 30, 2021, 01:01:
Ugh, don't go under, GoG. I have like 500 games on GoG, it's my preferred platform.

At least if they do go under you get to keep your games and they all work. If Steam foes down....I am fairly certain that wouldn't be the case.

Does Steam sell games that won’t run on 7/8/10/11? Do they label them appropriately?
Heh, I was so proud of myself when I found the Crysis executable so I could run it on 7.

I have also only used GOG for the original intended purpose, i.e. to buy some classic games from the 1990s out of nostalgia. Nowadays, I buy everything else on Steam and UbiSoft Connect and very rarely the odd game on the EGS or B.net. Origin is out since the return of EA to Steam.

I have a day one Steam account and there has simply never been a reason for me to build up a library of "new" games on GOG. I don't mind DRM. I don't mind double launchers (Steam + Ubi Connect or Steam + Origin). I have had a uPlay and Origin account since day one. So what. It's just a background process. Who cares?

However, I really like GOG for their preservation efforts. Without GOG and their digging into the legalities, we probably would have never seen re-releases of many of the classics in digital format. We can see how much the publishers "care" when looking at Microsoft as a bad example. They still haven't shown any effort to release many requested classics like Freelancer, Starlancer or some MechWarrior games. So good on GOG for bringing back other publishers' classics and for testing the games and making adaptions when necessary. That is awesome.

But GOG is playing it too nice. They should have made (timed) exclusivity agreements with those publishers. Instead, the way it goes is GOG puts in all the work and then the publisher goes and puts the re-release on GOG *and* Steam and guess where 90% of customers buy their copy? Right.

At the very least, GOG should advertise it more liberally if they have a better version of a game than other storefronts. This has been the case on many occasions in the past. For example, for a long time, GOG had the better X-Wing and TIE fighter packages on GOG compared to Steam. Another example, which is pretty embarrassing for EA, would be the original Crysis. Origin only had the 32-bit version for many years while GOG had the more up-to-date 64-bit executable.

If GOG puts in the work to figure out the legalities and to assure compatibility of old games on modern OS' then they should reward themselves for it. Stop being the nice guy. Make timed exclusive arrangements if you are the ones doing all the hard work. Then people will probably buy more from your store. Maybe even put your own games on GOG exclusively. That will make the platform much more popular. Yes, there will be an outcry blah blah blah but at the end of the day that is what you have to do or GOG will never grow out of its niche status.

Lutris exists and works pretty well. It's kind of mind boggling to me that gog doesn't double down and support linux better. They have always catered to a niche of gamers, it seems like linux would be a good fit to target. But no, steam supports linux better.

That said, I think the problem is neither of GoG's niches are growth categories. Game development since the mid to late 2000s has been pretty stagnant. You can usually expect a game produced at that time to still work on modern computers. So the pool of old games GoG can pull from is limited. Eventually, a given customer will have bought all of the old games they want, and they don't need to return to GoG.

With lutris/minigalaxy I've been digging into my GoG collection again. I've been having fun finishing some old B and C tier adventure games and playing around with some of the old strategy games etc, but I'm surprised at how many classic titles I was excited to buy again when they were first rereleased have stopped interesting me.

They saw this years ago and pivoted to focus on the DRM aspect of their store. Clearly, there is a limit to how much of a draw this is. The number of new releases has skyrocketed in recent years, and things like streaming tv have worked to devalue each individual piece of content. When facing the choice between price or drm in this kind of market, most customers are going to choose price. In many years, at which time you might start to consider whether a game is still playable, the market will be showering you with a new hot title that you would rather buy than replay something you finished and forgot years ago.

Storefronts like epic and steam are working with the market. Even things like itch have their own niche that aligns with growth forces. GoG is pretty much going against the grain here. If they didn't have to show infinite growth as companies must do these days, they probably would be OK for a while. I feel shrinking their offerings to focus on DRM as a value add... won't make an impact.

They do it to get people to buy from their store, which they couldn't get customers other wise. It was a shit release and shit store.

Yes, they do it to get people to buy from the store. Your point?
The store is improving, albeit slowly. Was Steam perfect in the beginning. /rhetorical

They blatantly copied the same game stores, they attacked while doing all the hard work, not to mention building trust.

What do you mean by copied because “a store is a store is a store” except some have more features and some have less. If anything the complaint has been that EGS doesn’t have enough features. So would it be considered copying if EGS adds a forum, modd integration or shopping cart?
The EGS does not affect the trust that other stores have garnered.

Constant giveaways don't bring cash to the economy because they would normally be bought at a legit gaming store.

A time limited giveaway of a game or two a week, most of which people already own or would never buy, is not very damaging. To reiterate CDPR would have mentioned it if they thought it was an issue with the losses that GoG is experiencing. Which they didn’t, so it isn’t.

Yeah, I never mentioned exclusives because it doesn't apply in this case it still bribery and extortion where it does apply.

The standard definitions of bribery and extortion do not apply here.

It might be to some but it's still an accurate description of the their strategy. I saw a lot of newer games, that's sounds like an under representation.
They constantly give away games which undermines the game economy. Just as they are balanced in mmogs and real world.
They do it to get people to buy from their store, which they couldn't get customers other wise. It was a shit release and shit store.
They blatantly copied the same game stores, they attacked while doing all the hard work, not to mention building trust.

Constant giveaways don't bring cash to the economy because they would normally be bought at a legit gaming store.

Yeah, I never mentioned exclusives because it doesn't apply in this case it still bribery and extortion where it does apply.

Blaming the weekly timed giveaway of games (the majority of which were old and no one would purchase at any price) is a reach. And comparing it to drug dealers, like gaming is a dirty addiction, is bizarrely laughable.

As for exclusives, they're new releases which don't fit GoG's no DRM policy.
TLDR
If EGS played any part of this than CD Projekt would have mentioned it in their latest financial earning report. And as we can see, they said crickets. It's nothing but Epic Derangement Syndrome.

Nah, lockdowns still boosted game sales but as economists and drug dealers know, giving away product disrupts the economy.

Jonjonz wrote on Nov 30, 2021, 06:46:
Over the years I have amassed a large GOG collection, but my purchases there have been dropping off in the last few years, why? Now when games get to be a year or more older, they show up at places like Greenmangaming with attractive low prices for Steam keys.

I always used GOG for getting old games. Most of those games that were published long before Steam became a thing and had locked publishers into long term contracts. If a title is new, Steam is a better choice thanks to all the great extras it provides like, cloud saves, Steam workshop, larger customer base, larger active community boards.

The DRM thing is moot, there is no way I would ever have the time to download and burn to CD the hundreds of games I have on GOG.

They can't compete on new titles, and they shot themselves in the foot with Cyberpunk, so I can't really see a viable next move for them that will turn things around.

Maybe it is time to give up, start also selling Steam keys, while still handling all the old DRM free stuff they already have. Maybe just sell out completely too Steam.

I want to see them live on so I have access to my old games, but things are not looking good.

I feel the same way, except for the DRM issue. I have all my GOG game installers backed up on a storage hard drive, so as long as Windows doesn't kill the install, I'll be fine.

Honestly, I feel that I am the last-generation of gamer to appreciate these Good Old Games. The reality is that I don't have time to play them and I have almost all of the old games that I really want anyway (although I would love to see the FASA mechcommander games on GOG...c'mon Microsoft make it happen).

The current generation of gamers have grown up with League or Legends, Fornite and others that have a strong multiplayer component or a healthy community like Minecraft.
These games are not my "thing", much like the games on GOG are not the current gen gamers "thing".

It sucks getting old

Read a Steam thread about records being broken or a GoG thread about losses and one thing's guaranteed, EDS will rear it's matted head.
Some probably think Tim is responsible for inflation, COVID-19 and supply chain issues.

Besides their business practices, the economy is a huge part. There has been a massive decline in spendable income over the last 2 years.
And epicfail is hugely responsible for the grievous harm to retail gaming sales. It's overtly destructive capitalism of, burn down the industry.
Like walmart before, to all the small businesses in the US and amazon internationally.

Orogogus wrote on Nov 30, 2021, 03:10:

El Pit wrote on Nov 29, 2021, 18:51:
If it's not on Steam, people won't buy it. Not even DRM free. It must be on Steam. THIS is a pseudo-monopoly that people actually want and seem to like. Which is bad for competitors. But people seem to care more about having their stuff in one place than about DRM.

Nothing has really changed in the relationship between GOG.com and Steam since GOG launched in 2008. I wouldn't think that buyers would suddenly be switching over to Steam now, causing a change in GOG's fortunes. It seems more likely to me that Epic's moves over the last 3 years -- exclusives, free games, coupons -- have been pulling a higher proportion of sales away from GOG than from Steam; each lost sale matters a lot more to CDP. When a game-changer like Amazon rolls into town to challenge Wal-Mart's dominance, mom-and-pop stores are inevitably going to fold first. And if GOG is losing money with a 30% cut then things will just be worse for them if 15% becomes standard.

This is the real situation I would imagine. We now have outlets like Amazon and Epic offer more 'free' games than I can play, not to mention things like Microsoft Game Pass, EA Play, Humble Bundle etc.

GoG also used to fit a niche, it seems they are realizing that and possibly going back to it. Don't be like every other store, go back to just making certain any old games I play will work on modern systems. Although I imagine they saw that that is probably a dead end at some point once all the old games worth selling have been integrated.