Microsoft Flight Simulator Graphics Petition

The new Microsoft Flight Simulator Patch released last week included some PC performance improvements through CPU optimizations among other things. And while there's the promise of improved visuals like ray tracing in a future PC DirectX 12 patch, there are complaints that the PC edition has suffered a visual downgrade in the current version. This petition seeks a restoration of the game's prior look. This is having trouble getting traction because you apparently can't link to such things from the game's official forums. Here's part of that:
Since the SIM Update 5, released 28th of July, Microsoft Flight Simulator has enjoyed better performance in terms of frame rates and smoothness over previous releases. However, the visual fidelity - LOD, lighting, anti-aliasing have all been sacrificed to achieve this. It is far from the same PC game that thrilled me graphically every time I did a flight, no matter where I flew (urban, country, islands, mountains).

Simply, the "WOW" factor is gone from flights. Graphics no longer look realistic, but cartoony and simplified. In my 35+ years of gaming, this is the only time I have experienced a game take a turn for the worse graphically with no options to turn back. On each new software update - features are usually added (ray tracing, screen space reflections, ambient lighting, upsampling technology), but never taken away. Forcing users to have a worse experience I feel is unacceptable.
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25.
 
Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator Graphics Petition
Aug 5, 2021, 17:09
25.
Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator Graphics Petition Aug 5, 2021, 17:09
Aug 5, 2021, 17:09
 
JeffD wrote on Aug 3, 2021, 18:08:
jdreyer wrote on Aug 3, 2021, 15:27:

ObsidianAnt runs a 3080, and you can see building pop in pretty obviously in the distance.
I believe I saw that video.. the ny sky scrapers in the horizon. The problem is.. you cant stop that. Those sky scrapers will have to pop in at some point. They don't always exist, you cannot see them in California (Ignoring earth curvature which I believe the game does not simulate). No matter what setting or version you played in, they will exist in one shot and not exist in another shot. I will accept that the pop in distance may be shorter now.

Also jdreyer, as much as people want to keep claiming that, the evidence does not support it. Most peoples examples do now show a noticeable visual change, and I have even seen videos where people were comparing their release footage with SU4/SU5, and there was visual improvements since the release day. So everything you see now does actually look better then the original release of the game, while also improving performance.

By the way maybe I should correct another inaccuracy being passed around. This is not a Microsoft game, asobo is a 3rd party studio. Their last game was on 6 platforms. Probably their most technically impressive one was the crew, the large open world format racing/flying game. (This I actually did not know till just now, so imo this actually makes asobo a very ideal candidate to make msfs 2020). Msfs 2020 will be exclusive to ms platforms, and I'm sure a lot of back and forth talks about xbox hardware was discussed during development, and yes the PC version is beta test, but microsoft most likely had zero input on suggesting anything they needed to cut. Only that there needed to be an xbox series version soon and I am sure they would have been a little disappointed if it did not look as good as how the pc version turned out. I am also sure Asobo probably asked MS engineers in how best to optimize the game for xbox after the pc version came out and it came time to look at the xbox release. I'm sure they had a hotline to AMD, too.

People need to quit whining about the barely noticeable pc nerfs and instead look at the simply amazing job of stuffing such a game into a console and having it come out THIS GOOD. Heck id like to see what they could do on an xbox X, just no cuts in the main version please, use those dynamic sliders.
It's a first world problem, to be sure.
With great freedom comes great responsibility.
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24.
 
Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator Graphics Petition
Aug 3, 2021, 18:08
24.
Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator Graphics Petition Aug 3, 2021, 18:08
Aug 3, 2021, 18:08
 
jdreyer wrote on Aug 3, 2021, 15:27:

ObsidianAnt runs a 3080, and you can see building pop in pretty obviously in the distance.
I believe I saw that video.. the ny sky scrapers in the horizon. The problem is.. you cant stop that. Those sky scrapers will have to pop in at some point. They don't always exist, you cannot see them in California (Ignoring earth curvature which I believe the game does not simulate). No matter what setting or version you played in, they will exist in one shot and not exist in another shot. I will accept that the pop in distance may be shorter now.

Also jdreyer, as much as people want to keep claiming that, the evidence does not support it. Most peoples examples do now show a noticeable visual change, and I have even seen videos where people were comparing their release footage with SU4/SU5, and there was visual improvements since the release day. So everything you see now does actually look better then the original release of the game, while also improving performance.

By the way maybe I should correct another inaccuracy being passed around. This is not a Microsoft game, asobo is a 3rd party studio. Their last game was on 6 platforms. Probably their most technically impressive one was the crew, the large open world format racing/flying game. (This I actually did not know till just now, so imo this actually makes asobo a very ideal candidate to make msfs 2020). Msfs 2020 will be exclusive to ms platforms, and I'm sure a lot of back and forth talks about xbox hardware was discussed during development, and yes the PC version is beta test, but microsoft most likely had zero input on suggesting anything they needed to cut. Only that there needed to be an xbox series version soon and I am sure they would have been a little disappointed if it did not look as good as how the pc version turned out. I am also sure Asobo probably asked MS engineers in how best to optimize the game for xbox after the pc version came out and it came time to look at the xbox release. I'm sure they had a hotline to AMD, too.

People need to quit whining about the barely noticeable pc nerfs and instead look at the simply amazing job of stuffing such a game into a console and having it come out THIS GOOD. Heck id like to see what they could do on an xbox X, just no cuts in the main version please, use those dynamic sliders.
23.
 
Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator Graphics Petition
Aug 3, 2021, 17:10
Quboid
 
23.
Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator Graphics Petition Aug 3, 2021, 17:10
Aug 3, 2021, 17:10
 Quboid
 
jdreyer wrote on Aug 3, 2021, 15:27:
Quboid wrote on Aug 3, 2021, 14:27:
JeffD wrote on Aug 2, 2021, 16:56:
As someone who can play it on some pretty impressive settings with a 3070ti, this thing is just a whole bunch of winey babies.

There might be some inconsistency with how people are affected, and perhaps the new pop-in is more noticeable on lower-end systems. Personally, I have noticed zero difference in graphics and a small improvement in performance so this update has been great for me.
ObsidianAnt runs a 3080, and you can see building pop in pretty obviously in the distance.

I got something like that before the update. It's impossible for me to say if it was as bad - particularly as it's been 3 months since I last played it - but it was a bit distracting.
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22.
 
Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator Graphics Petition
Aug 3, 2021, 15:29
22.
Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator Graphics Petition Aug 3, 2021, 15:29
Aug 3, 2021, 15:29
 
jdreyer wrote on Aug 3, 2021, 13:26:
Beamer wrote on Aug 3, 2021, 07:26:
Some people will do anything they can to craft a narrative of Microsoft being mean to them. No matter what happens, it's because Microsoft is being mean to them
I mean, when they advertise the game looking one way, then scale the graphics back multiple times after release, perhaps that doesn't qualify as "being mean," but it certainly qualifies as being disingenuous.
Yeah, I wouldn't say there's a 0% chance this was a plan, but more likely they were just over optimistic and had to scale back when faced with reality. Due to the way graphics are streamed over the internet, it's probably not possible to give people different LoD options very easily.
With great freedom comes great responsibility.
Avatar 22024
21.
 
Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator Graphics Petition
Aug 3, 2021, 15:27
21.
Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator Graphics Petition Aug 3, 2021, 15:27
Aug 3, 2021, 15:27
 
Quboid wrote on Aug 3, 2021, 14:27:
JeffD wrote on Aug 2, 2021, 16:56:
As someone who can play it on some pretty impressive settings with a 3070ti, this thing is just a whole bunch of winey babies.

There might be some inconsistency with how people are affected, and perhaps the new pop-in is more noticeable on lower-end systems. Personally, I have noticed zero difference in graphics and a small improvement in performance so this update has been great for me.
ObsidianAnt runs a 3080, and you can see building pop in pretty obviously in the distance.
With great freedom comes great responsibility.
Avatar 22024
20.
 
Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator Graphics Petition
Aug 3, 2021, 14:27
Quboid
 
20.
Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator Graphics Petition Aug 3, 2021, 14:27
Aug 3, 2021, 14:27
 Quboid
 
JeffD wrote on Aug 2, 2021, 16:56:
As someone who can play it on some pretty impressive settings with a 3070ti, this thing is just a whole bunch of winey babies.

There might be some inconsistency with how people are affected, and perhaps the new pop-in is more noticeable on lower-end systems. Personally, I have noticed zero difference in graphics and a small improvement in performance so this update has been great for me.
Avatar 10439
19.
 
Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator Graphics Petition
Aug 3, 2021, 14:04
19.
Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator Graphics Petition Aug 3, 2021, 14:04
Aug 3, 2021, 14:04
 
jdreyer wrote on Aug 3, 2021, 13:26:
Beamer wrote on Aug 3, 2021, 07:26:
Some people will do anything they can to craft a narrative of Microsoft being mean to them. No matter what happens, it's because Microsoft is being mean to them
I mean, when they advertise the game looking one way, then scale the graphics back multiple times after release, perhaps that doesn't qualify as "being mean," but it certainly qualifies as being disingenuous.

Sorry, I was responding to the "they did this deliberately to make the XBOX the better option!"
That is more or less lunacy.

This isn't a plot, it's incompetence.
18.
 
Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator Graphics Petition
Aug 3, 2021, 13:26
18.
Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator Graphics Petition Aug 3, 2021, 13:26
Aug 3, 2021, 13:26
 
Beamer wrote on Aug 3, 2021, 07:26:
Some people will do anything they can to craft a narrative of Microsoft being mean to them. No matter what happens, it's because Microsoft is being mean to them
I mean, when they advertise the game looking one way, then scale the graphics back multiple times after release, perhaps that doesn't qualify as "being mean," but it certainly qualifies as being disingenuous.
With great freedom comes great responsibility.
Avatar 22024
17.
 
Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator Graphics Petition
Aug 3, 2021, 07:26
17.
Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator Graphics Petition Aug 3, 2021, 07:26
Aug 3, 2021, 07:26
 
Some people will do anything they can to craft a narrative of Microsoft being mean to them. No matter what happens, it's because Microsoft is being mean to them
16.
 
Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator Graphics Petition
Aug 3, 2021, 06:38
16.
Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator Graphics Petition Aug 3, 2021, 06:38
Aug 3, 2021, 06:38
 
The Half Elf wrote on Aug 2, 2021, 22:03:
Flight Sim is the first game in a long time from Microsoft that came out on PC then came out on Consoles.

The obvious reason is that the PC release was a beta test for the console versions. I don't know why anyone is surprised. Microsoft has been favoring and pushing the Xbox since the year 2001. Everything that has anything to do with gaming on a Windows PC is now called "Xbox-this" or "Xbox-that". It's the only thing that MS cares about. They care about Xbox, not the PC. The Xbox is the lead platform and in this particular case of a VERY demanding flight sim (this is also no surprise given the history of Flight Simulator) the Xbox is the lowest common denominator that needs to be catered to.

The Xbox release is also not the first time that people have noticed a downgrade. Many people noticed downgrades shortly after release. It's pretty obvious that MS toned down the graphics after the initial marketing phase had ended and after all the streamers had presented the shiny new sim to the world. The next stage of marketing was to boost performance which inevitably led and still leads to visual downgrades.

Anyone who was not blinded by the OMGTEHGRAFFIX hype could see this from miles away and it has always been the main concern of the "haters" that MS would cater to their precious Xbox first and foremost. It is no surprise at all to witness the current development.
15.
 
Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator Graphics Petition
Aug 2, 2021, 23:30
15.
Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator Graphics Petition Aug 2, 2021, 23:30
Aug 2, 2021, 23:30
 
You just quoted me quoting you saying xbox was the best... congratulations, you just played yourself. Also the game was pretty much the best asobo could do, asobo is (was?) not some amazing top tier company with wonder wiz programmers on staff. msfs was an amazing push for them... and I can say with pretty good certainly that they were not telling themselves 'you know.. we shouldn't implement this because xbox'. Did the game take a hit because of console limitations in SU5...YES. But for it we got better performance thanks to the fact they had to get off their butts to do some optimization.

Thats what sucks about pc exclusive games, instead of coding worth a shit they simply slap a label on it that says it need extreme levels of hardware. Witcher 3 for example, it performed hard and I cannot say when I looked at it I was like "yea..I can understand why it performs like crap". Consoles mean programers need to squeeze what they can out of a specific level of hardware.
14.
 
Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator Graphics Petition
Aug 2, 2021, 22:03
14.
Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator Graphics Petition Aug 2, 2021, 22:03
Aug 2, 2021, 22:03
 
JeffD wrote on Aug 2, 2021, 18:23:
The Half Elf wrote on Aug 2, 2021, 17:59:
but it appears that Microsoft neutered the PC version as well so that the XBOX X version is the best..

Where are you getting this wild notion the xbox version was better? Its the same software as the pc, using a not-as-well-tested dx12 implementation because xbox series won't do dx11, using a mix of high and ultra settings. targeting 30fps, and a hard cap of 60 in VRR.

READ MY FUCKING WORDS. Never said WAS better. Flight Sim is the first game in a long time from Microsoft that came out on PC then came out on Consoles. Shit has ALWAYS been held back or scaled back to cater to consoles (with rare exceptions of games like Cyberpunk 2077, etc). And it is NOT the same software as a PC. Yeah it might run a version of windows 10 and have an intel CPU and AMD GPU but it is NOT the same software, especially (since you want to nitpick) that vast majority of PC's are singular unique computers.

But my point STILL stands. This is nothing new in the industry except typically the PC version comes out later and typically has more options for greater hardware.
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13.
 
Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator Graphics Petition
Aug 2, 2021, 21:34
Jivaro
 
13.
Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator Graphics Petition Aug 2, 2021, 21:34
Aug 2, 2021, 21:34
 Jivaro
 
Microsoft screws over it's PC gaming base? Nooooo. *pretend shocked face* They would never.
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12.
 
Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator Graphics Petition
Aug 2, 2021, 19:01
12.
Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator Graphics Petition Aug 2, 2021, 19:01
Aug 2, 2021, 19:01
 
Obsidian Ant has a good overview here.
With great freedom comes great responsibility.
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11.
 
Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator Graphics Petition
Aug 2, 2021, 18:23
11.
Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator Graphics Petition Aug 2, 2021, 18:23
Aug 2, 2021, 18:23
 
The Half Elf wrote on Aug 2, 2021, 17:59:
but it appears that Microsoft neutered the PC version as well so that the XBOX X version is the best..

Where are you getting this wild notion the xbox version was better? Its the same software as the pc, using a not-as-well-tested dx12 implementation because xbox series won't do dx11, using a mix of high and ultra settings. targeting 30fps, and a hard cap of 60 in VRR.
10.
 
Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator Graphics Petition
Aug 2, 2021, 18:00
10.
Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator Graphics Petition Aug 2, 2021, 18:00
Aug 2, 2021, 18:00
 
Cutter wrote on Aug 2, 2021, 15:12:
Bob wrote on Aug 2, 2021, 14:44:
Didn't Microsoft have it in their contracts with some developers that if they wanted to put their game on the xbox, then they were not allowed to have the game on another platform with better graphics then the xbox?

Maybe they have a similar deal here?

For outside devs maybe. This is all in-house. There well aware of the limitations of consoles. Zero need to sabotage PC sales with shenanigans like this.
It's been a year. Maybe they've gotten all the PC sales they're going to get, so they're fine with F'ing over PC gamers. That said, traditionally sales of MS Flight Sim have had a pretty long tail, so this is definitely going to impact some sales.
With great freedom comes great responsibility.
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9.
 
Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator Graphics Petition
Aug 2, 2021, 17:59
9.
Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator Graphics Petition Aug 2, 2021, 17:59
Aug 2, 2021, 17:59
 
Bob wrote on Aug 2, 2021, 14:44:
Didn't Microsoft have it in their contracts with some developers that if they wanted to put their game on the xbox, then they were not allowed to have the game on another platform with better graphics then the xbox?

Maybe they have a similar deal here?


So what's going on is that to make it work on a console they cut graphics corners. Most of the time dev's just allow the PC version to do what it wants, but it appears that Microsoft neutered the PC version as well so that the XBOX X version is the best. Probably another reason to do this is that Microsoft is having a very rough go of it's latest console due to lack of software.
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8.
 
Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator Graphics Petition
Aug 2, 2021, 17:29
8.
Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator Graphics Petition Aug 2, 2021, 17:29
Aug 2, 2021, 17:29
 
WaltSee wrote on Aug 2, 2021, 17:08:
If Microsoft did this, then it's horrible--what a profound absence of judgment. If it's the performance of the simulator that Microsoft is trying to address, then dumbing the entire game down graphically is the wrong way to go.

It wasn't dumbing the game down, it was fixing bad code. The game may have looked great, but it ran like crap. it ran like hot garbage and VR was unusable because of 20-40 fps on low settings. All they did was implement the same optimization design seen on all AAA games. Aside from the pop in when flicking your hat switch around, the changes are not noticeable.

The notion of "ray tracing" for this game is a total waste of time, imo. Far better to do realistic graphics with HDR support, instead.


You don't seem to understand all what ray tracing can bring to games. There are a few key raytracing functions that would make huge differences in msfs. #1 proper cockpit lighting and shadowing (Check out the famous cyberpunk car scene example), #2 proper reflections on the planes and water surfaces. Screen space reflection is just ugly. That is actually all you would need. And that is probably all we would see so that xbox performance would not be hindered. I don't really know if ray traced shadows on the city landscape would help, I am fairly certain it does a nice clean single pass and then freezes it, no need to update shadows on the ground more than a couple seconds or even minutes at a time.

As for pictures showing examples, that is kind of what I am getting at. The pop in is there when you look for it, there is no hiding it and you can't show that on pictures. All games do it. It is only ugly when using the hat switch to instantly change view points left/right/back and it redraws a whole new landscape. The landscape detail, esp in distance, very hard to notice. I "Think" some people are seeing a different threshold in the distance and I feel we just need to add a ultra plus setting for that. There is also a high possibility these people manually edited their config files to access extreme settings and the top of that setting that is not accessible in game got pulled down.
7.
 
Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator Graphics Petition
Aug 2, 2021, 17:08
7.
Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator Graphics Petition Aug 2, 2021, 17:08
Aug 2, 2021, 17:08
 
If Microsoft did this, then it's horrible--what a profound absence of judgment. If it's the performance of the simulator that Microsoft is trying to address, then dumbing the entire game down graphically is the wrong way to go. If that's the goal, then make the graphics scalable--so the people with toy computers can get the toy graphics to run at much higher frame rates, while letting the people who cherish the realism of the SIM have their way, as well. The notion of "ray tracing" for this game is a total waste of time, imo. Far better to do realistic graphics with HDR support, instead.

This petition needs work, however. First thing it needs badly are screenshots showing the differences and the degradation of the graphics display. I wouldn't expect people to sign without some objective "proof" illustrated in the petition to show the basis of the complaint. It isn't that no one would believe the petition otherwise, it's just difficult to gauge the severity of the problem without screenshots, imo.
It is well known that I cannot err--and so, if you should happen across an error in anything I have written you can be absolutely sure that *I* did not write it!...;)
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6.
 
Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator Graphics Petition
Aug 2, 2021, 16:56
6.
Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator Graphics Petition Aug 2, 2021, 16:56
Aug 2, 2021, 16:56
 
Bob wrote on Aug 2, 2021, 14:44:
Didn't Microsoft have it in their contracts with some developers that if they wanted to put their game on the xbox, then they were not allowed to have the game on another platform with better graphics then the xbox?

Maybe they have a similar deal here?

I have never seen such FUD. Forza 4 always looked best on pc. So hear is the deal, msfs 2020 had some really bad optimization. It may look great but you needed a monster computer to run it. One of the reasons for this is a lot of screen data was retained in memory, not just what was in front of the player but all around them, too. This is actually bad design, every game should be culling what the player cannot see. msfs 2020 suffered high memory usage because of this, far higher then the xbox series can manage.

With the xbox optimizations, 3 things happened. #1 buildings and trees not in the camera are culled (side effect: pop in when changing camera positions), #2 the geometry, the number of trees and buildings rendered in the distance are probably lower (I really think there was so much rendered that this is actually hard to tell). I also believe better lod models were used that consumed less memory. I know they redid how trees looked. And #3 exclusive to the console, terrain mesh detail is dynamic and will slide between high and ultra performance dependent.

As someone who can play it on some pretty impressive settings with a 3070ti, this thing is just a whole bunch of winey babies. #1 is annoying somewhat but honestly, only people with shitty controller setups that flick their hat switch like mad would notice. #2 is simply not noticeable unless.. ok I run 2k.. so maybe a full 4k might notice the slight downgrade. IMO #1 should stay as it is (you are literally asking for your game to perform like crap so you can abuse the hat switch). #2 should just be option management, no reason we can't have pre-su5 settings if we manually select higher settings.

Also this is the first and only patch so far and I am sure we will see many performance refinements to come. It just will take time, asobo does not do things quickly.
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