I really hope it turns out great.

bhcompy wrote on Jul 8, 2021, 01:57:

Kxmode wrote on Jul 8, 2021, 00:36:
I am going off what SAAS is; a constantly evolving product that improves over time. I don't think gamers will ever be kosher with that. They want a final product with no issues unless the publisher tells them it is not that but will one day become it. It's all about managing expectations. As Joker says, "nobody panics because it's all 'part of the plan'."

Except gamers have been kosher with that for a long time in MMOs

As long as publishers are up-front about that. That's what labels like "Early Access," and "crowdfunding" imply. If a consumer sees those, they automatically expect an incomplete game with bugs. A company like Bioware and Bethesda doing that for Anthem and Fallout 76 without telling customers the actual condition of their product is in for a world of backlash. A GAAS game, by following the SAAS definition, is a continuously improved upon product, not the final product.

However, I understand each person has their unique definition of what "GAAS" is. It is an emerging thing not yet completely defined. It could go the way I think it is, or another way.

NKD wrote on Jul 8, 2021, 00:49:

Kxmode wrote on Jul 8, 2021, 00:36:

NKD wrote on Jul 8, 2021, 00:27:

Kxmode wrote on Jul 8, 2021, 00:14:
GTAO was feature-complete product when it launched with GTA V; also a feature-complete game.

GAAS are incomplete products that launch as MVP to unsuspecting customer who believe they are purchasing a completed product. Anthem or Fallout 76 as perfect examples.

Warframe, Fortnite, World of Tanks, MWO are MMOs that launched as feature-complete products who had new content added; like GTAO and RDO.

That's not really what GaaS means. It's very broad and has nothing to do with how much content is in it. If some corporate goonie is talking about GaaS, they are talking about anything ranging from an MMO to simply a single player game with a store and a few post-release content addons. It's pretty much a stand-in for anything that they expect to have an ongoing revenue stream that is more important to them than the money they get off release day sales.

I am going off what SAAS is; a constantly evolving product that improves over time. I don't think gamers will ever be kosher with that. They want a final product with no issues unless the publisher tells them it is not that but will one day become it. It's all about managing expectations. As Joker says, "nobody panics because it's all 'part of the plan'."

Yeah a lot of GaaS end up being more like "early access." I think that's the mindset people should have when they decide whether to buy one or not. Buy it if you think the initial stuff is worth it, not based on some vague promise of improvements that may never come (Anthem).

I agree. However, you cannot put all the responsibility on the consumer. They don't have all the facts and rely on what the publisher is marketing. They are essentially lying to their customers. For example, Sean Murray and his endless stream of lies for No Man's Sky plus the fake gameplay demo showing off a custom-created idyllic planet. Bioware for producing a phony E3 gameplay demo for Anthem (ironically, that was the first time the devs understood the game they were making ), Todd Howard for Fallout 76. CDPR for Cyberpunk 2077 (I have not experienced any game-breaking bugs, but I include it because I know others have). All of these companies had marketed their products as feature-complete for launch. They should have been more forthcoming and honest.

The series is just so played out, I tried to like Valhalla but found myself bored to tears in under an hour. Everyone raved about Origins, and i figured it was the first of the rebooted series so must be good, and bought it for like $7. Nope: bored to tears within minutes. I really wanted to like it, the setting is awesome, but the gameplay is just more of the same, not to mention the KB/M controls sucked balls. I did get a dozen or so hours out of Odyssey (having bought it on a deep sale) only because I love Greek mythology and history. I saw a huge map and expected to play for hundreds of hours, nope: 3-4 building types just repeated a million times over. No thank you.

An online element with a constant stream of content (and underpaid developers slowly dying in 'permanent crunch') is in no way appealing to me.

Jonjonz wrote on Jul 8, 2021, 06:53:
Is there a wildly successful single player only GAAS? Every GAAS mentioned here is has a online multiplayer mode which is where recurring cost is of no concern to whales who have to have a multiplayer environment in which to conspicuously consume.

But Assassin's Creed? The Steam multiplayer stats for this series seems pretty low, so why does Ubi think it is worth the effort to GAAS this series?

And the multiplayer population in GTA IV wasn't anywhere near what happened in GTA V. It seems quite likely that Ubi is trying to push a more MP focused version of AssCreed.

Now whether it will work and/or be good is to be determined.

Is there a wildly successful single player only GAAS? Every GAAS mentioned here is has a online multiplayer mode which is where recurring cost is of no concern to whales who have to have a multiplayer environment in which to conspicuously consume.

But Assassin's Creed? The Steam multiplayer stats for this series seems pretty low, so why does Ubi think it is worth the effort to GAAS this series?

*yawn*

Kxmode wrote on Jul 8, 2021, 00:36:
I am going off what SAAS is; a constantly evolving product that improves over time. I don't think gamers will ever be kosher with that. They want a final product with no issues unless the publisher tells them it is not that but will one day become it. It's all about managing expectations. As Joker says, "nobody panics because it's all 'part of the plan'."

Except gamers have been kosher with that for a long time in MMOs

The thing I dislike about GaaS the most is everyone has their own personal definition of what a GaaS is. To me it's simple, but yeah I'm not crusading this losing cause.

Kxmode wrote on Jul 8, 2021, 00:36:

NKD wrote on Jul 8, 2021, 00:27:

Kxmode wrote on Jul 8, 2021, 00:14:
GTAO was feature-complete product when it launched with GTA V; also a feature-complete game.

GAAS are incomplete products that launch as MVP to unsuspecting customer who believe they are purchasing a completed product. Anthem or Fallout 76 as perfect examples.

Warframe, Fortnite, World of Tanks, MWO are MMOs that launched as feature-complete products who had new content added; like GTAO and RDO.

That's not really what GaaS means. It's very broad and has nothing to do with how much content is in it. If some corporate goonie is talking about GaaS, they are talking about anything ranging from an MMO to simply a single player game with a store and a few post-release content addons. It's pretty much a stand-in for anything that they expect to have an ongoing revenue stream that is more important to them than the money they get off release day sales.

I am going off what SAAS is; a constantly evolving product that improves over time. I don't think gamers will ever be kosher with that. They want a final product with no issues unless the publisher tells them it is not that but will one day become it. It's all about managing expectations. As Joker says, "nobody panics because it's all 'part of the plan'."

Yeah a lot of GaaS end up being more like "early access." I think that's the mindset people should have when they decide whether to buy one or not. Buy it if you think the initial stuff is worth it, not based on some vague promise of improvements that may never come (Anthem).

NKD wrote on Jul 8, 2021, 00:27:

Kxmode wrote on Jul 8, 2021, 00:14:
GTAO was feature-complete product when it launched with GTA V; also a feature-complete game.

GAAS are incomplete products that launch as MVP to unsuspecting customer who believe they are purchasing a completed product. Anthem or Fallout 76 as perfect examples.

Warframe, Fortnite, World of Tanks, MWO are MMOs that launched as feature-complete products who had new content added; like GTAO and RDO.

That's not really what GaaS means. It's very broad and has nothing to do with how much content is in it. If some corporate goonie is talking about GaaS, they are talking about anything ranging from an MMO to simply a single player game with a store and a few post-release content addons. It's pretty much a stand-in for anything that they expect to have an ongoing revenue stream that is more important to them than the money they get off release day sales.

I am going off what SAAS is; a constantly evolving product that improves over time. I don't think gamers will ever be kosher with that. They want a final product with no issues unless the publisher tells them it is not that but will one day become it. It's all about managing expectations. As Joker says, "nobody panics because it's all 'part of the plan'."

HorrorScope wrote on Jul 7, 2021, 15:54:

chickenboo wrote on Jul 7, 2021, 15:20:

Kxmode wrote on Jul 7, 2021, 14:12:
Games-as-a-Service has never been a successful venture. Perhaps for software, but not for video games. People expect a feature-complete product at launch and especially so in a big, open-world established IP like Assassin's Creed.

Rockstar believes otherwise. From a Google search of "GTA V online lifetime revenue": "It is the second best-selling video game of all time with over 145 million copies shipped, and as of April 2018, the most financially successful entertainment product of all time, with about $6 billion in worldwide revenue."
We don't have to like it, but damn is GTA V Online successful. Warframe, Fortnite, World of Tanks, MWO, there's loads of GAAS that have been incredibly successful and continue to thrive. This is not a dying industry, in fact it could be the opposite, it could become the dominant form of online game. Fortunately we'll always have indie games.

Forza Horizon 4 has me hooked currently... it's a GaaS.

FH4 is a $60 single-player full-featured product that has online components. It is NOT a GAAS.

A GAAS is a product that launches incomplete and is built over time. It is cheaper to go the CI/CD route and push out an MVP to market and finish it over time. Unlike early access that is typically upfront with consumers letting them know they are buying an incomplete (and buggy) product, no such warning appears for GAAS products. Anthem, Fallout 76, and No Man's Sky are good examples.

"As-a-service" means and implies a product that is in continuous development with features and improvements that will appear someday (if ever).

The difference between businesses and gamers is that businesses understand that using a service works as long as the current iteration meets their needs.

Gamers are not like that. They expect that when they buy something for $40/50/60, the product to be playable from beginning to end. GAAS games do not offer this. That why Assassin's Creed GAAS WILL fail. Ubisoft will need to be completely upfront with consumers letting them know the GAAS version of AC will take years to build. However, suppose they launch Infinity as a completed product (like GTAO or FH4). In that case, it is not a GAAS but something more like a $60 single-player full-featured product with online components that has a steady stream of content added.

Kxmode wrote on Jul 8, 2021, 00:14:
GTAO was feature-complete product when it launched with GTA V; also a feature-complete game.

GAAS are incomplete products that launch as MVP to unsuspecting customer who believe they are purchasing a completed product. Anthem or Fallout 76 as perfect examples.

Warframe, Fortnite, World of Tanks, MWO are MMOs that launched as feature-complete products who had new content added; like GTAO and RDO.

That's not really what GaaS means. It's very broad and has nothing to do with how much content is in it. If some corporate goonie is talking about GaaS, they are talking about anything ranging from an MMO to simply a single player game with a store and a few post-release content addons. It's pretty much a stand-in for anything that they expect to have an ongoing revenue stream that is more important to them than the money they get off release day sales.

chickenboo wrote on Jul 7, 2021, 15:20:

Kxmode wrote on Jul 7, 2021, 14:12:
Games-as-a-Service has never been a successful venture. Perhaps for software, but not for video games. People expect a feature-complete product at launch and especially so in a big, open-world established IP like Assassin's Creed.

Rockstar believes otherwise. From a Google search of "GTA V online lifetime revenue": "It is the second best-selling video game of all time with over 145 million copies shipped, and as of April 2018, the most financially successful entertainment product of all time, with about $6 billion in worldwide revenue."
We don't have to like it, but damn is GTA V Online successful. Warframe, Fortnite, World of Tanks, MWO, there's loads of GAAS that have been incredibly successful and continue to thrive. This is not a dying industry, in fact it could be the opposite, it could become the dominant form of online game. Fortunately we'll always have indie games.

GTAO was feature-complete product when it launched with GTA V; also a feature-complete game.

GAAS are incomplete products that launch as MVP to unsuspecting customer who believe they are purchasing a completed product. Anthem or Fallout 76 as perfect examples.

Warframe, Fortnite, World of Tanks, MWO are MMOs that launched as feature-complete products who had new content added; like GTAO and RDO.

NKD wrote on Jul 7, 2021, 12:48:
This actually sounds pretty solid.

It sure does. The added advantage is if they pull a Might & Magic X Legacy at a future date then they can shut down a whole bunch of connected games all at once instead of having to disable access to the games individually. How awesome is that? These are very exciting times. I can't wait to drop my $120 for Ubi's Ultimate Edition games which will ship with ONE ENTIRE season of DLCs and updates. So generous. I love it when you get to pay extra for seasons 2, 3 and 4. It gives the Ultimate Edition so much more value when you can keep spending money on extra content. It's like... ULTIMATE JOY. So awesome. I really hope they put up a preorder page ASAP so I can sign up extra early for all this glorious gaming greatness. Pretty please.

MMOs and GTA - which is just another MMO - aren't remotely the same thing. AC is story in which you play a role. The gameplay is the weakest part of AC - as it is with most Ubisoft titles. Are you seriously going to pay to climb towers and collect feathers and pages and crap if that's all there is to it? Most people won't. The only thing that makes AC worth playing is the story and the world building.

Kxmode wrote on Jul 7, 2021, 14:12:
Games-as-a-Service has never been a successful venture. Perhaps for software, but not for video games. People expect a feature-complete product at launch and especially so in a big, open-world established IP like Assassin's Creed.

Various MMOs have been highly successful since the 90s. They're games-as-a-service by definition

NKD wrote on Jul 7, 2021, 12:48:
This actually sounds pretty solid. Instead of alternating studios doing the games, they all collaborate on every title. For AC: Infinity, the idea is to have a consistent ongoing experience instead of the thing they do now where every game feels like you just skipped over 10 chapters of story that only appeared in a comic book somewhere, and game mechanics and features just seem to disappear and reappear at random with each title. If you're going to do annual or semi annual titles, it makes some sense to tie them together.

I'm sure it will still be Ubisoft Sandbox Experience with all the accompanying ups and downs, though.

Sounds like they're basically going the Matrix Online route?

Putting the Greed into Assassin's Greed? Or how about "Greed as a Service"?

Kxmode wrote on Jul 7, 2021, 14:12:
Games-as-a-Service has never been a successful venture. Perhaps for software, but not for video games. People expect a feature-complete product at launch and especially so in a big, open-world established IP like Assassin's Creed.

EverQuest, WoW and FFXIV vehemently disagree with your stance, as do a ton of other moderately successful MMOs.

And yes, the original EverQuest is still running, getting expansions (the latest was released December 2020) and it's still subscription based.