McMil wrote on Jul 6, 2021, 10:37:
That's all well and good for cyberpunk, but Lumen pretty much eradicates the need for hardware ray tracing.

I've been watching some of those UE5 demo videos recently, and I have to say, it's jaw-droppingly impressive - especially considering some of them are running on consoles or older-gen hardware (GTX 1080). I am eagerly awaiting the first real-world example that I can check out.

jdreyer wrote on Jun 30, 2021, 22:48:

Nullity wrote on Jun 30, 2021, 13:22:

jdreyer wrote on Jun 29, 2021, 19:06:

Flo wrote on Jun 29, 2021, 14:33:
Due to the lack of a RTX card on my desktop I installed the update on the Series X and, again, ray tracing just does nothing for me. You have to look very hard to spot the differences.

Yeah, the advantage of RTX in modern games is that it will take a lot less work to make it look nice, not that it will make it look a lot better.

That's not even remotely true - though to be fair, it depends on the implementation and which RT features are used. For example, a game with just RT shadows looks nicer, but won't be as noticeable as say, CP2077, which is a night and day difference due to also including RT reflections, global illumination, ambient occlusion, etc.

Read the comments, most people below agree with me.

And lots of people surprisingly somehow can't tell the difference between 1080p and 4k either. So I suppose if you are in one of these anomalous groups, you'll be able to save some money on PC hardware.

That's all well and good for cyberpunk, but Lumen pretty much eradicates the need for hardware ray tracing.

The advantage of RTX in modern games is that it will take a lot less work to make it look nice, not that it will make it look a lot better.

Nullity wrote on Jun 30, 2021, 13:22:

jdreyer wrote on Jun 29, 2021, 19:06:

Flo wrote on Jun 29, 2021, 14:33:
Due to the lack of a RTX card on my desktop I installed the update on the Series X and, again, ray tracing just does nothing for me. You have to look very hard to spot the differences.

Yeah, the advantage of RTX in modern games is that it will take a lot less work to make it look nice, not that it will make it look a lot better.

That's not even remotely true - though to be fair, it depends on the implementation and which RT features are used. For example, a game with just RT shadows looks nicer, but won't be as noticeable as say, CP2077, which is a night and day difference due to also including RT reflections, global illumination, ambient occlusion, etc.

Read the comments, most people below agree with me.

jdreyer wrote on Jun 29, 2021, 19:06:

Flo wrote on Jun 29, 2021, 14:33:
Due to the lack of a RTX card on my desktop I installed the update on the Series X and, again, ray tracing just does nothing for me. You have to look very hard to spot the differences.

Yeah, the advantage of RTX in modern games is that it will take a lot less work to make it look nice, not that it will make it look a lot better.

That's not even remotely true - though to be fair, it depends on the implementation and which RT features are used. For example, a game with just RT shadows looks nicer, but won't be as noticeable as say, CP2077, which is a night and day difference due to also including RT reflections, global illumination, ambient occlusion, etc.

I am running a 2060 and I normally play Doom Eternal at 2k for frames. Obviously I can play it at 4k but the frame rate can suddenly dip occasionally on my rig, which is more annoying than all the platform jumping in this Doom game. Not saying this is the change I need to play at 4k consistently, but I will welcome every tool in the toolkit.

I tried it last night on my 3080. Yes, it looked nice... for 10 seconds, and then I really never noticed it again. I'm sure it's not implemented fully like in Metro Exodus, thus you're still seeing traditional fake lighting and shadow effects, with some RTX overlayed - mostly reflections in shiny surfaces it seems. But this is something you're just not going to notice in a fast paced FPS game.

RTX, or ray tracing in general, is just one more item in the graphics toolbelt. Yes it will make games subtly look more immersive and realistic, and if a game is written ground up for it, it could lead to very interesting and spooky environments. But like most SINGLE graphics features, by itself it doesn't make a startling difference, especially in a game like Doom Eternal, that wasn't made for it.

About the only game that I think really looks noticeably better with RTX is Control, and that wasn't even build from the ground up for it, but it makes very effective use of ray tracing in the creepy environments, and you walk through that game slow enough to appreciate it.

Honestly, I didn't buy a 3080 for RTX. I bought it to play the games I love at Ultra with better framerates than my old 1080. No one should buy a 3000 series card just for RTX.

jacobvandy wrote on Jun 29, 2021, 14:53:
Nah, having ray-traced reflections is like taking off the horse blinders you've been wearing your whole gaming life. Once you're used to that, it's painful to go back to looking at the smudgy placeholders so many games frequently employ. Even the nicest screen-space mirroring loses its sheen when its limitations are made to look so obvious by comparison.

Meh. I've played numerous games with raytracing - Metro Exodus: Enhanced Edition, Control, Watchdogs Legion, etc - and most of the time the difference is minimal, despite it looks great in side-by-side comparisons.

jacobvandy wrote on Jun 29, 2021, 14:53:
As for performance, that's why they push DLSS along with it. Not that framerate is much of a concern in this game unless you're trying to run it on a potato. I did a quick comparison looking at the outside of a glass-covered building and measured 285-290fps with RTX off, 200-205fps with RT reflections on, 235-240fps with RT reflections and DLSS Quality, and 260-265fps with RT reflections and DLSS Balanced.

Look, I have an RTX 3080 and I still find the performance hit to be too much - even with DLSS. With Cyberpunk 2077 I ended up disabling raytracing and actually preferred it. Raytracing reflections can be a bit shimmery, which I don't care for. Performance varies from game to game depending on the implementation, so I don't have a blanket rule. But there are quite a few games I simply prefer to play with raytracing disabled.

What about the "original" Doom (2016)?

Domgrief wrote on Jun 29, 2021, 21:48:
Control had a few anachronisms in there like film projectors that were great fun and really showed off the raytracing, but there were times coming around a corner that I was startled by my own reflection, and I'm not entirely sure that it improved my experience.

That happened to me a couple times, too, but I had the opposite reaction. Just the fact that it happened is fucking awesome, because it's supposed to happen. Same with another thing that happens in Control quite a bit, where you can't see clearly through a window because of bright lighting on your side of it. Even if it might be a hindrance to gameplay, that's how reflections work, and having accurate ones is part of the next level of realism in graphics. I don't want games to stop at just showing it off like a gimmick you can toggle, I'm looking forward to the paradigm shift where ray-tracing everything is the baseline.

jacobvandy wrote on Jun 29, 2021, 14:53:

theyarecomingforyou wrote on Jun 29, 2021, 13:08:
Yeah, the effects are barely noticeable in the trailer and yet the performance impact will not be. Quake II RTX was definitely enjoyable though - it got me to play through the entire game for the first time.

Nah, having ray-traced reflections is like taking off the horse blinders you've been wearing your whole gaming life. Once you're used to that, it's painful to go back to looking at the smudgy placeholders so many games frequently employ. Even the nicest screen-space mirroring loses its sheen when its limitations are made to look so obvious by comparison.

I haven't found that it's something that I really miss when it's turned off. Unlike more in-your-face things like HDR, it's realistic and normal enough that I often don't notice the reflections unless I think to look for them.

Control had a few anachronisms in there like film projectors that were great fun and really showed off the raytracing, but there were times coming around a corner that I was startled by my own reflection, and I'm not entirely sure that it improved my experience.

jdreyer wrote on Jun 29, 2021, 19:06:

Flo wrote on Jun 29, 2021, 14:33:
Due to the lack of a RTX card on my desktop I installed the update on the Series X and, again, ray tracing just does nothing for me. You have to look very hard to spot the differences.

Yeah, the advantage of RTX in modern games is that it will take a lot less work to make it look nice, not that it will make it look a lot better.

Of course it makes it look better, much better. Reflections are actually realistic and reflect things unlike the base game. Also Ray traced global illumination is massively different in games that use it like Minecraft RTX and Metro Exodus. I'd imagine id Tech 8 will support such tech. This is just RTR, btu with RTGI too it'll be so much better looking.

Flo wrote on Jun 29, 2021, 14:33:
Due to the lack of a RTX card on my desktop I installed the update on the Series X and, again, ray tracing just does nothing for me. You have to look very hard to spot the differences.

Yeah, the advantage of RTX in modern games is that it will take a lot less work to make it look nice, not that it will make it look a lot better.

Sharken wrote on Jun 29, 2021, 17:35:
I wonder if the Steam age check would not be sufficient for the EU. If not then something is seriously wrong in Europe

Nope. Steam's AVS (simple birth date check that can be easily manipulated) is not strong enough.

It is pretty lame that Valve still has not managed to implement proper AVS in Steam after all these years (no matter for which country). The original Half-Life used to be soft-banned in Germany. Soft-ban = No advertising for the game was allowed, no sales to persons under the age of 18. A lack of a proper AVS is basically a day 1 Valve/Steam issue. It is inexplicable that Valve has not made any progress in that regard. We've had digital feature IDs in the EU for a long time now and there is a whole new European eID since 01/01/2021. Valve would only have to implement the proper interface. Porn sites have been able to pull off proper AVS since the 1990s.

Or use the same AVS as YouTube? If a Steam customer has a credit card tied to their account treat them like an adult. How about that? Or maybe we could even just use simple logic. I own a day 1 Steam account so my Steam account is 17 years old now. I doubt I would have been able to create a Steam account if I would have been under the age of 1 back in 2003 .

theyarecomingforyou wrote on Jun 29, 2021, 13:08:

Bill Borre wrote on Jun 29, 2021, 12:56:
I dunno. Maybe Doom Eternal isn't the best game to show this off on. It looks good without it. It definitely looks great on Quake 2 though.

Yeah, the effects are barely noticeable in the trailer and yet the performance impact will not be. Quake II RTX was definitely enjoyable though - it got me to play through the entire game for the first time.

Oi. I couldn't get through the campaign without getting major motion sickness. I'm not in my teens anymore lol.

RogueSix wrote on Jun 29, 2021, 16:58:
The rest of the planet Earth is not equal. Some of the rest of the planet Earth is more equal than others . Fact is if you live in the EU then YT will require age verification even if you have an account. You have to send them a copy of your ID or enter your credit card number.

Indeed, i find it a shame that the YouTube age check nonsense exists. Apparently it is this EU law that has made Google require ID or Credit Card:

Audiovisual Media Services Directive (AVMSD)

I wonder if the Steam age check would not be sufficient for the EU. If not then something is seriously wrong in Europe

RogueSix wrote on Jun 29, 2021, 16:58:

phinn wrote on Jun 29, 2021, 13:53:

Sharken wrote on Jun 29, 2021, 13:47:
Age verification check: No thanks.
Maybe its time to use something other than YouTube.

Or maybe have a google account like the rest of the planet Earth and it won’t ask you.

The rest of the planet Earth is not equal. Some of the rest of the planet Earth is more equal than others . Fact is if you live in the EU then YT will require age verification even if you have an account. You have to send them a copy of your ID or enter your credit card number.

The funny part being that if you copy your ID without marking it as such, and without blacking info out info that is irrelevant (basically only name, picture and DOB is required to verify age) you committed a violation of the GDPR in the EU.. just FYI

phinn wrote on Jun 29, 2021, 13:53:

Sharken wrote on Jun 29, 2021, 13:47:
Age verification check: No thanks.
Maybe its time to use something other than YouTube.

Or maybe have a google account like the rest of the planet Earth and it won’t ask you.

The rest of the planet Earth is not equal. Some of the rest of the planet Earth is more equal than others . Fact is if you live in the EU then YT will require age verification even if you have an account. You have to send them a copy of your ID or enter your credit card number.

jacobvandy wrote on Jun 29, 2021, 14:53:
Nah, having ray-traced reflections is like taking off the horse blinders you've been wearing your whole gaming life. Once you're used to that, it's painful to go back to looking at the smudgy placeholders so many games frequently employ. Even the nicest screen-space mirroring loses its sheen when its limitations are made to look so obvious by comparison.

Full-on ray-traced lighting would be nice, but it takes a lot of work next to flipping a switch for RT reflections. You have to strip out all the fake light sources and then make sure every level still looks the way you want with only the real lights, which isn't easy to do for any game designed with the old way of thinking about illumination.

Personally, I think applying RT reflections should take as much work as RT lighting. Why? Because so many of the surfaces shown in the video are too mirror-like, IMO. Just as RT lighting needs to have an environment artist re-work the level in order to make sure it looks right, good RT reflections also needs an environment artist to adjust the object materials to account for how RT will affect the reflections. Industrial-looking military installations, like the ones shown in Doom, should not be covered in mirrored surfaces. For many of the scenes in the video, I prefer the "smudgy placeholders" because they look more appropriate for the environment.