MrDevinoch wrote on Jun 30, 2021, 03:51:

Except, of course, that 1) Facebook has repeatedly said that isn't why they let him go, and 2) Facebook doesn't have to HAVE a reason to let him go. As I've stressed to you before, California is an at-will employment state. Employers can terminate your employment at any time for no reason at all.

Really? So if Facebook wants to fire a black or gay employee, just because, that's okay? And if they don't provide a reason, they can just say because? And nobody will have a problem with it?

MrDevinoch wrote on Jun 29, 2021, 21:21:
I genuinely don't believe that's 90% of Republicans. I'm just trying to understand why many don't seem to want to do anything about it.

The simple answer is tribalism. Humans naturally gravitate towards nurturing closer relations to people with similar world views, it's a big reason why humanity has survived as a species. There are certainly positive aspects of this, such as protecting and providing aid to your "tribe" if it is threatened by outside forces. But there are also bad aspects such as lashing out against "tribes" with different world views. Most people belong to multiple "tribes" on different levels, family, friends, city, nation, political affiliation, sports team, etc. And what is accepted from "outsiders" tends to vary quite a lot, often based on how close a person feels connected to a certain "tribe".

Politics is basically utilizing the tribal instinct to get others to give you power to do what you feel is right. And American internal politics have been heavily tribalized for over a century.

New York Times, pure brilliance.
How to write a letter to Trump when he is wrong. Using the actual letter from State Senate President Chris Kapenga of Wisconsin as a near perfect example.

Dear Leader: A Near-Perfect Letter From a Trump Sycophant, Annotated

Example snippet

Mr. President,
One of the most frustrating things to watch during your presidency was the continued attacks on you from fake news outlets with no accountability to truth.

It is helpful early on to slip in a common Trumpian term like “fake news” or “Deep State” or “alternative facts.” This makes clear that you are operating in the same alternative reality as Mr. Trump.

I can’t imagine the frustration you and your family felt. Unfortunately, in our positions of public service, we have to accept the reality that often “truth” in the media is no longer based on facts but simply what one feels like saying.

Media bashing is a requirement when soliciting Mr. Trump. If you’re not willing to go there, don’t even bother.

,..,.. . .
You get the point, the full letter receives this treatment.
The Washington Post gives the letter a similar treatment.

It's Sickening

This comment was edited on Jun 30, 2021, 07:35.

Orogogus wrote on Jun 30, 2021, 04:40:
Not providing a reason diminishes their credibility, it doesn't enhance it.

Giving a reason is just asking to have said reason picked apart and to have yourself sued. Even if your reason is completely legitimate, you'd be a complete idiot (and have terrible lawyers) to do it when it isn't required. I can't say it speaks to the credibility of a company either way, given that it's standard operating procedure.

MrDevinoch wrote on Jun 30, 2021, 03:51:
Except, of course, that 1) Facebook has repeatedly said that isn't why they let him go, and 2) Facebook doesn't have to HAVE a reason to let him go. As I've stressed to you before, California is an at-will employment state. Employers can terminate your employment at any time for no reason at all.

49 states are at-will employment states; the only exception is Montana. But many states have exceptions on top of the federal discrimination protections; in California, it's illegal to fire someone for their political views. But as you said, Facebook insists that's not why they fired Luckey. Because that would be wrong. But I believe that as much as their insistence that they're committed to user privacy, or when companies and government organizations insist that they're firing a whistleblower for unrelated performance-related reasons that were never documented. Not providing a reason diminishes their credibility, it doesn't enhance it.

Orogogus wrote on Jun 29, 2021, 22:52:

MrDevinoch wrote on Jun 29, 2021, 21:21:
Except I didn't do any of those things. Did you see me do any of those things? You're painting a broad brush over everyone, in a way I don't think makes any sense. I'm pointing out, and fairly so I feel, that when people decided they're the only one who are entitled to rights, they deserve to be called out on their bullshit. I'm pointing out, as I have time and again, that people aren't demonizing the people who voted Republican, they're demonizing the Republican congressional members. Based on their actions, y'know, like lying about the election being fraudulent, or trying to prevent minorities from voting, or preventing LGBTQ+ folks from getting married or healthcare. You know. BASIC. HUMAN. RIGHTS.

The real question I'm asking you right now is are you okay with them doing that on your behalf? Are you okay with your congressmen and congresswomen telling blacks they shouldn't have the right to vote? Are you okay with telling people that if they're sick, they should just fall over and die? Because if you are, then yes, you personally are the kind of person who is being demonized. On the basis of your actions, and that you do not believe that every American deserves the same rights, which is the most unAmerican thing imaginable.

I genuinely don't believe that's 90% of Republicans. I'm just trying to understand why many don't seem to want to do anything about it.

The specific issue I brought up was Palmer Luckey, and how Facebook let him go, ostensibly because he donated $10,000 to a Trump PAC. I don't believe that he wrote or said anything offensive. As Beamer described it, he deserved to be let go for supporting someone who wanted to take away people's rights. And as I said, I think that could be any of the 74 million voters who wanted Trump to win.

Except, of course, that 1) Facebook has repeatedly said that isn't why they let him go, and 2) Facebook doesn't have to HAVE a reason to let him go. As I've stressed to you before, California is an at-will employment state. Employers can terminate your employment at any time for no reason at all.

Wall Street Journal (old article, it shouldn't be pay walled http://archive.today/K3181)
Why Did Facebook Fire a Top Executive? Hint: It Had Something to Do With Trump

I was almost going to side with Mr unLucky even after he donated $100,000 to dumps inaugural committee.
But then he stuck the final nail in the coffins eyeball...
One month after he left Facebook, he hosted a fundraiser for Republican Sen. Ted "I'm in Mexico" Cruz of Texas.

And for that he deserves a fate worse than firing. I'm thinking locking him in a room with Giuliani's dripping hair die for 10 hours.
And he should have to donate $250,000 for repairs to the United States Capitol.

MrDevinoch wrote on Jun 29, 2021, 21:21:
Except I didn't do any of those things. Did you see me do any of those things? You're painting a broad brush over everyone, in a way I don't think makes any sense. I'm pointing out, and fairly so I feel, that when people decided they're the only one who are entitled to rights, they deserve to be called out on their bullshit. I'm pointing out, as I have time and again, that people aren't demonizing the people who voted Republican, they're demonizing the Republican congressional members. Based on their actions, y'know, like lying about the election being fraudulent, or trying to prevent minorities from voting, or preventing LGBTQ+ folks from getting married or healthcare. You know. BASIC. HUMAN. RIGHTS.

The real question I'm asking you right now is are you okay with them doing that on your behalf? Are you okay with your congressmen and congresswomen telling blacks they shouldn't have the right to vote? Are you okay with telling people that if they're sick, they should just fall over and die? Because if you are, then yes, you personally are the kind of person who is being demonized. On the basis of your actions, and that you do not believe that every American deserves the same rights, which is the most unAmerican thing imaginable.

I genuinely don't believe that's 90% of Republicans. I'm just trying to understand why many don't seem to want to do anything about it.

The specific issue I brought up was Palmer Luckey, and how Facebook let him go, ostensibly because he donated $10,000 to a Trump PAC. I don't believe that he wrote or said anything offensive. As Beamer described it, he deserved to be let go for supporting someone who wanted to take away people's rights. And as I said, I think that could be any of the 74 million voters who wanted Trump to win.

Colbert Burns tRump With Actual Clips From His Rambling, Incoherent Speech
Has actual real human beings hysterically laughing out loud at the twice impeached, disgraced failure and his mouth words.

Orogogus wrote on Jun 29, 2021, 20:34:
Biden narrowly won the popular vote 51-47 after Trump colossally mishandled the pandemic.

Hillary Clinton narrowly won the popular vote 48.2% - 46.1% And that was without any help from an idiot who killed 400,000 Americans.

jdreyer wrote on Jun 29, 2021, 15:57:
Second, if he lost work due to unsubstantiated rumors, then he should bring a wrongful termination suit against those corporations. Instead he's choosing to use the courts against those with the least resources to defend themselves, the women in this story.
Third, not only is he choosing a type of lawsuit that is hard to win, his tactics in executing the suit are making it even harder (presenting a poorly prepared complaint, pushing to be considered a public person, filing in CA, pushing to move venue to the defendant-friendly LA courts, etc.).
What all of this points to is that he seems less concerned about truly winning the case, and more concerned with the optics ("I'm fighting to clear my name!") and punishing the women who called him out.

"At Will Employment"....it's a bitch to get around that in the States and this wouldn't qualify as 'wrongful termination' in the legal sense, so that's a non-starter.

Oh, totally agree that this comes off as grandstanding for the spotlight.....but that doesn't mean that it's wrong. If I had to lay money on it, he's a garbage human......but he deserves a chance at recompense if the opening move was a bullshit hit job.

RedEye9 wrote on Jun 29, 2021, 20:42:
MrDevinoch, Thank You
If you're ever out in West Texas I'd like to buy you a cup of coffee and a hot dog. Same to you Beamer

You'll be fine out here, it's extremely hot and neither one of y'all are snowflakes.

Never been to Texas, but if I find myself out that way, maybe I'll take you up on the offer. I grew up in Nebraska, lived in Las Vegas and currently live in the Bay Area of California. This us and them mentality has always been used to make smaller groups out of the biggest group of all, the one that the capitalists have been robbing blind for centuries. Some day we as a country will get our heads around that, and we'll have a revolution much like the French did a few hundred years ago. I suspect that time's coming sooner than some folk realize.

There's a reason I wear a guillotine pendant.

Orogogus wrote on Jun 29, 2021, 20:34:

MrDevinoch wrote on Jun 29, 2021, 19:49:

Orogogus wrote on Jun 29, 2021, 16:30:
What I think is that this kind of attitude is going to lose the next presidential election and a bunch of smaller ones, because you and a lot of other liberals are out to punish anyone who voted for the guy who won in 2016. I think Trump would have walked the 2020 election if it wasn't for COVID-19. Treating him like a fringe candidate, and people who support him like terrorists and sex offenders, does nothing but shrink the tent and feed the "Orange man bad" memes. Palmer walked away fine, but a lot of the right-wing base of white, non-college educated men is looking at poorer and poorer job prospects every generation, and what they see is left-wing elitists, the flyover country lol crowd, shoving people out of their jobs for voting Republican. It doesn't win elections or win over anyone's mind, it just demonstrates a vindictive refusal to work with the other 47% of the populace.

So if you're complaining about poorer job prospects... why the hell are you Republican? No offense, but this constant demonization of "the left" as the people responsible for the death of the working class is a fundamental misreading of, well, reality. Capitalism is your enemy, friend, and the people who are responsible for that? They aren't leftists. Hell, they aren't even fundamentally right-wingers first and foremost - they're capitalists. Capitalists tend, on the trend, to be Republican leaning, and Loser 45 is one of those in every sense of the word - he wasn't Republican, he was a con-man capitalist. The Republican party did everything they could to get rid of him until it became clear that the con was working, and then, like all good capitalists, they looked for ways to profit off of it. He was treated like a fringe candidate because everyone underestimated the gullibility of the masses. He didn't make things better for the working class; he raised their taxes. He didn't make things harder on "the rich elite," because he's one of them, so he lowered their taxes. He had four years to show that he had any sort of plan for anything, and yet, nothing. People didn't make jokes about him because they needed to. They made jokes about him because it was all anyone could do to stop from crying in horror.

People aren't being shoved out of their jobs for voting Republican; they're being shoved out of their jobs for attempting to repress minority rights, for attempting to codify their beliefs that anyone with a different sexual orientation, a different skin color, a different ethnotype, a different geographical historical background, a different religious upbringing, that anyone who isn't them doesn't deserve the same rights they themselves insist upon.

I don't laugh at the flyover crowd. I grew up in the Midwest and left partially because I was tired of so many people acting like "the others" in America didn't deserve equal rights. And yet any time I ask my opponents why they're against these people having the same rights as them, they deflect, they pivot, they argue that religion's involved, when the country was founded with a separation of church and state.

Maybe try being a human first, and learning to understand your opponents.

I'm not a Republican, and learning to understand opponents is exactly what this is about. Biden narrowly won the popular vote 51-47 after Trump colossally mishandled the pandemic. Just how secure is the Democratic advantage that it's okay to demonize everyone who voted Republican? What gains do the Democrats have to show in the red states? It's well and good to point out that the right isn't actually on the side of the undereducated working class, but calling those same people terrorists and hatemongers - or a basket of deplorables - and clamoring to fire public figures for voting or donating the same way they did, is going to be a stronger message than any facts, and I think it's a message that's going to stick for more than one or two election cycles.

Except I didn't do any of those things. Did you see me do any of those things? You're painting a broad brush over everyone, in a way I don't think makes any sense. I'm pointing out, and fairly so I feel, that when people decided they're the only one who are entitled to rights, they deserve to be called out on their bullshit. I'm pointing out, as I have time and again, that people aren't demonizing the people who voted Republican, they're demonizing the Republican congressional members. Based on their actions, y'know, like lying about the election being fraudulent, or trying to prevent minorities from voting, or preventing LGBTQ+ folks from getting married or healthcare. You know. BASIC. HUMAN. RIGHTS.

The real question I'm asking you right now is are you okay with them doing that on your behalf? Are you okay with your congressmen and congresswomen telling blacks they shouldn't have the right to vote? Are you okay with telling people that if they're sick, they should just fall over and die? Because if you are, then yes, you personally are the kind of person who is being demonized. On the basis of your actions, and that you do not believe that every American deserves the same rights, which is the most unAmerican thing imaginable.

I genuinely don't believe that's 90% of Republicans. I'm just trying to understand why many don't seem to want to do anything about it.

Beamer wrote on Jun 29, 2021, 10:49:
Because... it doesn't really exist? It's a nice, scary label to put onto something that's normal and has always happened?

Oh, come on. Dude, don't play obtuse....we both know you're better than that. Boycotts and the court of popular opinion are things that have always been a part of human culture....obviously. Social media has taken the 'court of popular opinion' to wildly insane heights and far reaching effects that are damaging our society's ability to function. Think back to how people acted about Nixon 'the crook' or Kennedy 'the papist'....it was nasty, but nothing like what it is currently. Three things that come to mind that are interesting (though very limited in scope) analogs would be HUAC, Lindy Chamberlain, and the Salem Witch Trials....but again...they were comparatively narrow and limited in their damage.

I think maybe since you quoted two sentences you're taking a very myopic interpretation. 'Cancel Culture' is not a product of one political ideology....it's a product of this always on social media click or die world that so much of America is embracing. The Right and Left are playing the game....it's not something specific to one faction. Maybe you're defending it as 'the norm' because in this instance it serves your wants/needs/desires?

So...yeah....I can think of multiple examples of how nuts it is....macro and micro. I've had a handful of clients fire employees in the last four years because of something asinine on their social media. One because she worked for a very conservative accounting firm and was *very* pro-Bernie....but tastefully so. She lost her goddamn job because a bunch of adult-children worked themselves into a tantrum. HER JOB! HOW SHE, A SINGLE MOM, SUPPORTS HER KID.....because she had the temerity to voice her support for a set of ideals. People should not be losing their ability to put food on the table because someone didn't like their opinion....or because of obscure accusations.

But you're right....this hysteria is normal. Just another day at the office. Same as it was when we were kids. Business as usual.....

MrDevinoch wrote on Jun 29, 2021, 19:49:

Orogogus wrote on Jun 29, 2021, 16:30:
What I think is that this kind of attitude is going to lose the next presidential election and a bunch of smaller ones, because you and a lot of other liberals are out to punish anyone who voted for the guy who won in 2016. I think Trump would have walked the 2020 election if it wasn't for COVID-19. Treating him like a fringe candidate, and people who support him like terrorists and sex offenders, does nothing but shrink the tent and feed the "Orange man bad" memes. Palmer walked away fine, but a lot of the right-wing base of white, non-college educated men is looking at poorer and poorer job prospects every generation, and what they see is left-wing elitists, the flyover country lol crowd, shoving people out of their jobs for voting Republican. It doesn't win elections or win over anyone's mind, it just demonstrates a vindictive refusal to work with the other 47% of the populace.

So if you're complaining about poorer job prospects... why the hell are you Republican? No offense, but this constant demonization of "the left" as the people responsible for the death of the working class is a fundamental misreading of, well, reality. Capitalism is your enemy, friend, and the people who are responsible for that? They aren't leftists. Hell, they aren't even fundamentally right-wingers first and foremost - they're capitalists. Capitalists tend, on the trend, to be Republican leaning, and Loser 45 is one of those in every sense of the word - he wasn't Republican, he was a con-man capitalist. The Republican party did everything they could to get rid of him until it became clear that the con was working, and then, like all good capitalists, they looked for ways to profit off of it. He was treated like a fringe candidate because everyone underestimated the gullibility of the masses. He didn't make things better for the working class; he raised their taxes. He didn't make things harder on "the rich elite," because he's one of them, so he lowered their taxes. He had four years to show that he had any sort of plan for anything, and yet, nothing. People didn't make jokes about him because they needed to. They made jokes about him because it was all anyone could do to stop from crying in horror.

People aren't being shoved out of their jobs for voting Republican; they're being shoved out of their jobs for attempting to repress minority rights, for attempting to codify their beliefs that anyone with a different sexual orientation, a different skin color, a different ethnotype, a different geographical historical background, a different religious upbringing, that anyone who isn't them doesn't deserve the same rights they themselves insist upon.

I don't laugh at the flyover crowd. I grew up in the Midwest and left partially because I was tired of so many people acting like "the others" in America didn't deserve equal rights. And yet any time I ask my opponents why they're against these people having the same rights as them, they deflect, they pivot, they argue that religion's involved, when the country was founded with a separation of church and state.

Maybe try being a human first, and learning to understand your opponents.

MrDevinoch, Thank You
If you're ever out in West Texas I'd like to buy you a cup of coffee and a hot dog. Same to you Beamer

You'll be fine out here, it's extremely hot and neither one of y'all are snowflakes.

MrDevinoch wrote on Jun 29, 2021, 19:49:

Orogogus wrote on Jun 29, 2021, 16:30:
What I think is that this kind of attitude is going to lose the next presidential election and a bunch of smaller ones, because you and a lot of other liberals are out to punish anyone who voted for the guy who won in 2016. I think Trump would have walked the 2020 election if it wasn't for COVID-19. Treating him like a fringe candidate, and people who support him like terrorists and sex offenders, does nothing but shrink the tent and feed the "Orange man bad" memes. Palmer walked away fine, but a lot of the right-wing base of white, non-college educated men is looking at poorer and poorer job prospects every generation, and what they see is left-wing elitists, the flyover country lol crowd, shoving people out of their jobs for voting Republican. It doesn't win elections or win over anyone's mind, it just demonstrates a vindictive refusal to work with the other 47% of the populace.

So if you're complaining about poorer job prospects... why the hell are you Republican? No offense, but this constant demonization of "the left" as the people responsible for the death of the working class is a fundamental misreading of, well, reality. Capitalism is your enemy, friend, and the people who are responsible for that? They aren't leftists. Hell, they aren't even fundamentally right-wingers first and foremost - they're capitalists. Capitalists tend, on the trend, to be Republican leaning, and Loser 45 is one of those in every sense of the word - he wasn't Republican, he was a con-man capitalist. The Republican party did everything they could to get rid of him until it became clear that the con was working, and then, like all good capitalists, they looked for ways to profit off of it. He was treated like a fringe candidate because everyone underestimated the gullibility of the masses. He didn't make things better for the working class; he raised their taxes. He didn't make things harder on "the rich elite," because he's one of them, so he lowered their taxes. He had four years to show that he had any sort of plan for anything, and yet, nothing. People didn't make jokes about him because they needed to. They made jokes about him because it was all anyone could do to stop from crying in horror.

People aren't being shoved out of their jobs for voting Republican; they're being shoved out of their jobs for attempting to repress minority rights, for attempting to codify their beliefs that anyone with a different sexual orientation, a different skin color, a different ethnotype, a different geographical historical background, a different religious upbringing, that anyone who isn't them doesn't deserve the same rights they themselves insist upon.

I don't laugh at the flyover crowd. I grew up in the Midwest and left partially because I was tired of so many people acting like "the others" in America didn't deserve equal rights. And yet any time I ask my opponents why they're against these people having the same rights as them, they deflect, they pivot, they argue that religion's involved, when the country was founded with a separation of church and state.

Maybe try being a human first, and learning to understand your opponents.

I'm not a Republican, and learning to understand opponents is exactly what this is about. Biden narrowly won the popular vote 51-47 after Trump colossally mishandled the pandemic. Just how secure is the Democratic advantage that it's okay to demonize everyone who voted Republican? What gains do the Democrats have to show in the red states? It's well and good to point out that the right isn't actually on the side of the undereducated working class, but calling those same people terrorists and hatemongers - or a basket of deplorables - and clamoring to fire public figures for voting or donating the same way they did, is going to be a stronger message than any facts, and I think it's a message that's going to stick for more than one or two election cycles.

Orogogus wrote on Jun 29, 2021, 16:30:
What I think is that this kind of attitude is going to lose the next presidential election and a bunch of smaller ones, because you and a lot of other liberals are out to punish anyone who voted for the guy who won in 2016. I think Trump would have walked the 2020 election if it wasn't for COVID-19. Treating him like a fringe candidate, and people who support him like terrorists and sex offenders, does nothing but shrink the tent and feed the "Orange man bad" memes. Palmer walked away fine, but a lot of the right-wing base of white, non-college educated men is looking at poorer and poorer job prospects every generation, and what they see is left-wing elitists, the flyover country lol crowd, shoving people out of their jobs for voting Republican. It doesn't win elections or win over anyone's mind, it just demonstrates a vindictive refusal to work with the other 47% of the populace.

So if you're complaining about poorer job prospects... why the hell are you Republican? No offense, but this constant demonization of "the left" as the people responsible for the death of the working class is a fundamental misreading of, well, reality. Capitalism is your enemy, friend, and the people who are responsible for that? They aren't leftists. Hell, they aren't even fundamentally right-wingers first and foremost - they're capitalists. Capitalists tend, on the trend, to be Republican leaning, and Loser 45 is one of those in every sense of the word - he wasn't Republican, he was a con-man capitalist. The Republican party did everything they could to get rid of him until it became clear that the con was working, and then, like all good capitalists, they looked for ways to profit off of it. He was treated like a fringe candidate because everyone underestimated the gullibility of the masses. He didn't make things better for the working class; he raised their taxes. He didn't make things harder on "the rich elite," because he's one of them, so he lowered their taxes. He had four years to show that he had any sort of plan for anything, and yet, nothing. People didn't make jokes about him because they needed to. They made jokes about him because it was all anyone could do to stop from crying in horror.

People aren't being shoved out of their jobs for voting Republican; they're being shoved out of their jobs for attempting to repress minority rights, for attempting to codify their beliefs that anyone with a different sexual orientation, a different skin color, a different ethnotype, a different geographical historical background, a different religious upbringing, that anyone who isn't them doesn't deserve the same rights they themselves insist upon.

I don't laugh at the flyover crowd. I grew up in the Midwest and left partially because I was tired of so many people acting like "the others" in America didn't deserve equal rights. And yet any time I ask my opponents why they're against these people having the same rights as them, they deflect, they pivot, they argue that religion's involved, when the country was founded with a separation of church and state.

Maybe try being a human first, and learning to understand your opponents.

I mean, a lot of terrorists do support Trump.

The Proud Boys, all of 1/6, Kim Jung Un...
I'd wager more than the average amount of sex offenders there, too.

And a huge amount of people that think their sexual preference or religion means they should have rights others shouldn't

Acleacius wrote on Jun 29, 2021, 18:31:
I just realized what a dumb ass avellone is, unless I read something wrong or missed something. It sounded like mostly a lot of bad behavior.
It didn't sound like full assault or rape (once again I could have missed something). So he could have spent the last year getting therapy,
apologized and possibly made donations to women's charities. This probably would have much, much, much farther in rehabilitating his image,
reputation and a door back into the business. This path he chose is fraught with peril for himself, others and could possibly make things
much, much, much worst.

He is not getting back into the industry, allegations true or false, there is no return. If the case runs to completion it will not make any involved party innocent. If successful, there is no victory, if it fails there is no real change.

It's a peculiar time to be sure.

I just realized what a dumb ass avellone is, unless I read something wrong or missed something. It sounded like mostly a lot of bad behavior.
It didn't sound like full assault or rape (once again I could have missed something). So he could have spent the last year getting therapy,
apologized and possibly made donations to women's charities. This probably would have much, much, much farther in rehabilitating his image,
reputation and a door back into the business. This path he chose is fraught with peril for himself, others and could possibly make things
much, much, much worst.