The Flying Penguin wrote on Jun 7, 2021, 11:03:

RedEye9 wrote on Jun 7, 2021, 03:06:
How a WWII Japanese sub commander helped exonerate a U.S. Navy captain
Paywall free http://archive.today/jmJMZ

Fascinating story. Thanks for posting!

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My war movie vote: "Greyhound' starring Tom Hanks. Underrated gem. Critics picked on it, but that's because it was done like a classic 50s WWII movie. You could imagine the same movie having starred John Wayne 70 years ago. No fluff, no romance, no Hollywood nonsense, just a damn good story about 5 difficult days during a convoy escort mission.

I agree Greyhound was excellent, and I'm always surprised to read critical reviews of it. It had a vision, and it executed that vision well.

Mr. Tact wrote on Jun 7, 2021, 14:38:
This led me down a couple of rabbit holes, but an interesting one is the government setup in Canada. I didn't realize quite how tied up with England they are... was under the impression they had pushed away further from that situation.

We are - still - a constitutional monarchy. It's ridiculous at this point. Yet Canada has no shortage of people who adore the aristocracy for some inexplicable reason. I think the royals come here more than any place else because of that.

This led me down a couple of rabbit holes, but an interesting one is the government setup in Canada. I didn't realize quite how tied up with England they are... was under the impression they had pushed away further from that situation.

WannaLogAlready wrote on Jun 7, 2021, 11:56:
No doubt !
Remember the Alamo

Texas was most decidedly not a "warless" affair. "Remember the Alamo" was used as an inspiration at the Battle of Gonzales (actually not that far from where I live) which clinched Texas' independence from Mexico. More crucially, Mexico was its own entity by the early 1800s (First as a monarchy in 1821 and then as a republic in 1824) and decidedly not a Spanish satellite. The fact that General Houston was able to kick the shit out of Santa Ana and his forces with, essentially, largely militia forces was a goddamned miracle. Especially in light of the fact that, at the time. the Mexican army was better drilled, equipped, and seasoned than any British, French, or Spanish army.

Leading on from that was the Mexican-American war of 1846 (which was preceded by the annexation of Texas in 1845) which saw the US gain through combat California, Nevada, Colorado, Utah, New Mexico, Arizona, and Texas. In that war, there were 6,753 deaths, thousands of wounded combatants (actual number unknown but mean average from both sides put it near 5,000), and 4,102 civilian deaths. Hardly what any reasonable person would construe as "warless", especially in light of a declaration of war and internationally recognized peace treaty (The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo).

Mr. Tact wrote on Jun 7, 2021, 11:17:
It was as much "theoretically" Spanish as the east coast was theoretically English.

No doubt !
Remember the Alamo

It was as much "theoretically" Spanish as the east coast was theoretically English.

sauron wrote on Jun 6, 2021, 16:14:
As a Brit, I will always be grateful for the sacrifices made by Allied soldiers during WW2. Otherwise, the world would not be as we know it now.

One war clearly justified, WW2, if not all of it's consequences.

Then came a surfeit of made up wars for economic or power benefits (Vietnam, etc).
And frankly criminal ones (Irak, when the aggressors where proven to be of Saudi origin and without the Saudi Reign approval).

And let's not delve in warless happenstances (California, Nevada, Colorado, Utah, Nuevo Mexico, Arizona, Texas, Oregon, Washington, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Kansas, Oklahoma, Luisiana, Florida, Alabama, Misisipi y Alaska, where "theoretically" Spanish: Virreinato de Nueva Espana.)

I did not know Capt. Charles B. McVay was court-martialed.

RedEye9 wrote on Jun 7, 2021, 03:06:
How a WWII Japanese sub commander helped exonerate a U.S. Navy captain
Paywall free http://archive.today/jmJMZ

Fascinating story. Thanks for posting!

-----
My war movie vote: "Greyhound' starring Tom Hanks. Underrated gem. Critics picked on it, but that's because it was done like a classic 50s WWII movie. You could imagine the same movie having starred John Wayne 70 years ago. No fluff, no romance, no Hollywood nonsense, just a damn good story about 5 difficult days during a convoy escort mission.

I knew about the fate of the USS Indianapolis, in part due to "Jaws", but was not aware the captain had been court marshaled. I'm not surprised in the least that the leadership of the Navy acted so badly. It wouldn't surprise me to find out if they were hoping there were no survivors so the story could be easily buried beyond anyone's reach.

What makes that all the more infuriating is that the Navy completely ignored critical facts during its court-martial of Captain McVay. Facts that were not present or not fully articulated in to WaPo article.

To wit:

1. The USS Indianapolis was extremely unlikely to have survived either the bow or amidships hits due to the following reasons:
A. The torpedoes used where Type 96 "Long Lance" which packed 1,214 pounds of explosives and struck at anywhere from 40-45 knots beneath the armor belt. Combine this with the oxygen-kerosene fuel load of the torpedo and the damage from a secondary explosion was always going to be catastrophic.
B. There were rough swells the night of the sinking which could, and did, drive seawater in to the hull breaches at a faster rate than would have occurred on calmer seas.
C. The ship was vastly overloaded and top heavy, making any listing exponentially more likely to turn in to a full capsize. This was known but as a flagship, deemed "inconsequential".

2. "Zigzagging" was an outmoded concept of torpedo avoidance and was left over from WW1 strategy. As early as late 1941, the US Navy knew that zigzagging convoys and escorts was only moderately effective against torpedoes such as the German TII G7 which had reliability problems on par with the US' Mark 14 torpedoes. Later in the war, zigzagging just meant you were making it much easier for a spread to strike aft and stern. Once acoustic homing warheads become prevalent (such as the German TIV G7es Falke and the US' Mark 24), it was an utterly useless strategy. Moreover, neither of the two Portland class heavy cruisers carried sonar or effective ASW countermeasures and the Type 96 torpedoes were not turbine driven so there was no wake to be spotted.Ergo, there wasn't a chance in Hell that a hard to port or hard to starboard command could have been issued in a reasonable amount of time to avoid being struck or sank.

In short, Captain McVay was utterly railroaded by the Board of Inquiry. A fact Nimitz (a giant dick himself) recognized when he remitted McVay's court-martial and promoted him to the rank of Rear-Admiral.

How a WWII Japanese sub commander helped exonerate a U.S. Navy captain
Paywall free http://archive.today/jmJMZ

Saving Private Ryan
1917
Glory
And Red Dawn (original) for being a rare case of a classic war film structure, but completely fictional.

A Bridge Too Far is my fave war flick. I quite like The Battle of the Bulge as well mainly because of Robert Shaw and Henry Fonda. MASH - the film - is a lot of fun. Other ones I'll always rewatch all the time, The Guns of Navarone, The Eagle Has Landed, Tora! Tora! Tora!.

This comment was edited on Jun 6, 2021, 20:44.

it is almost impossible to imagine the courage it took to storm those beaches

This is very true. If you were in one of the first boats to make landfall, you must have known that there was a very high chance to simply get mowed down by defensive machine gun fire. You had to know that you were essentially cannon fodder paving the way for the 2nd or 3rd row of boats who stood a better chance because of factors like the Germans needing to reload, more targets (less concentrated enemy fire) and overheating enemy weaponry, jams, other technical issues. Everyone who helped liberate Europe from Nazi oppression was a hero but those guys in the first line on the beaches of Normandy deserve an extra layer of respect.

This comment was edited on Jun 6, 2021, 18:43.

Full Metal Jacket and Das Boot

jdreyer wrote on Jun 6, 2021, 17:56:

Greatest war movie? Here's my vote:
- Saving Private Ryan
Runners Up:
- Apocalypse Now
- Master and Commander

Those are good. Throw Patton in there...

Cutter wrote on Jun 6, 2021, 17:51:
Been watching a bunch of the old war films on TCM this last week. War is just so insane.

Greatest war movie? Here's my vote:
- Saving Private Ryan
Runners Up:
- Apocalypse Now
- Master and Commander

Been watching a bunch of the old war films on TCM this last week. War is just so insane.

On the one hand it makes perfect sense having lots of extremely fit people together would result in "extra-curricular" activities. On the other hand, it wouldn't have surprised me to learn they were so focused on their events that the situation was the exact opposite...