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34.
 
Re: Epic v. Apple Exhibits
May 4, 2021, 17:39
Verno
 
34.
Re: Epic v. Apple Exhibits May 4, 2021, 17:39
May 4, 2021, 17:39
 Verno
 
Tencent who also owns a 40% stake in Epic Games, yes we're aware of them

But they're trying to compete in markets that are dominated by monopolies and duopolies.

We'll see what shakes out after the investigations.
Playing: Xenoblade Chronicles DE, Ys IX, God of War
Watching: Lupin, You me and the Apocalypse, Days of Thunder
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33.
 
Re: Epic v. Apple Exhibits
May 4, 2021, 16:51
33.
Re: Epic v. Apple Exhibits May 4, 2021, 16:51
May 4, 2021, 16:51
 
Primalchrome wrote on May 4, 2021, 14:33:
jdreyer wrote on May 4, 2021, 01:01:
But with 75% of the market, you have to be on Steam, or you'll go out of business. Even EA has cried "Uncle" on that point.
>League of Legends has entered chat<

Backed by the $80B Tencent corporation.
'I am' is reportedly the shortest sentence in the English language. Could it be that 'I do' is the longest sentence? - GC
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32.
 
Re: Epic v. Apple Exhibits
May 4, 2021, 16:49
32.
Re: Epic v. Apple Exhibits May 4, 2021, 16:49
May 4, 2021, 16:49
 
Verno wrote on May 4, 2021, 10:53:
jdreyer wrote on May 3, 2021, 23:32:
Ongoing antitrust investigations:
Apple: US, Europe
Google: US, Europe
Epic: none

And yet somehow Epic is the bad guy.

It's interesting that you see this as heroes and villains. I see it as a bunch of businesses jockeying for position. Epic is not "the good guy" here by any means, they are no stranger to actions that are anti-consumer.
For sure, Epic isn't some altruistic gaming version of the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation. But they're trying to compete in markets that are dominated by monopolies and duopolies. That governments have let these markets calcify into these situations is the entire point of these lawsuits. And in part due to Epic's actions here, governments are finally responding.
'I am' is reportedly the shortest sentence in the English language. Could it be that 'I do' is the longest sentence? - GC
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31.
 
Re: Epic v. Apple Exhibits
May 4, 2021, 16:32
31.
Re: Epic v. Apple Exhibits May 4, 2021, 16:32
May 4, 2021, 16:32
 
Orogogus wrote on May 4, 2021, 01:49:

jdreyer wrote on May 4, 2021, 01:01:
But with 75% of the market, you have to be on Steam, or you'll go out of business.
EA might have cried Uncle, but Blizzard doesn't look like it's going to fold any time soon, and there are other standouts like Minecraft, Roblox, League of Legends, Crossfire and Genshin Impact. My impression is that the Oculus Store is beating Steam in VR game sales. Not everything's automatically a huge win for gamers when it breaks free of Steam, though. When EA originally stopped selling on Steam they immediately dove into the terrible DLC practices Valve wouldn't let them get away with (notably, forcing people to buy Mass Effect DLC using Bioware bucks that were sold in denominations that didn't line up with the cost of the DLC, and putting the DLC on sale like once a decade), and on the Oculus side we have the Facebook requirement.
Ah yes, let's pick the single developer that can afford to not be on Steam because they have billions of dollars from the most dominant MMO ever made and spent decades building a brand and following from the dawn of PC gaming. As for the other games, they either got very lucky with a unique, genre creating concept (MC) or they're backed by a massive corporation that can afford to stand up a game and market it (Riot, GI, Oculus).
'I am' is reportedly the shortest sentence in the English language. Could it be that 'I do' is the longest sentence? - GC
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30.
 
Re: Epic v. Apple Exhibits
May 4, 2021, 16:05
30.
Re: Epic v. Apple Exhibits May 4, 2021, 16:05
May 4, 2021, 16:05
 
roguebanshee wrote on May 4, 2021, 07:16:
Orogogus wrote on May 4, 2021, 01:49:
LurkerLito wrote on May 4, 2021, 00:20:
Kxmode wrote on May 3, 2021, 21:13:
Companies that put their games on Steam are free to sell on any other PC platform without hindrance from Valve.
Yes and no. A company can sell any of their games on any other platform but they are NOT allowed to undercut steam's prices. That's why epic could only undercut steam's prices during their sale by giving out $10 coupons, if they actually reflected a lower price in the sale, that company would have to match those prices on steam also or they'd be in violation of their steam contract.
I believe there's a dispensation for temporary, short-term sale prices. Right now, the GTA V Premium Edition is $15 on the EGS and $30 on Steam with no coupons involved. Frostpunk is $10.20 on GOG.com and $30 on Steam. And obviously when the EGS or GOG gives away games the developers aren't matching that on Steam.

jdreyer wrote on May 4, 2021, 01:01:
But with 75% of the market, you have to be on Steam, or you'll go out of business.
EA might have cried Uncle, but Blizzard doesn't look like it's going to fold any time soon, and there are other standouts like Minecraft, Roblox, League of Legends, Crossfire and Genshin Impact. My impression is that the Oculus Store is beating Steam in VR game sales. Not everything's automatically a huge win for gamers when it breaks free of Steam, though. When EA originally stopped selling on Steam they immediately dove into the terrible DLC practices Valve wouldn't let them get away with (notably, forcing people to buy Mass Effect DLC using Bioware bucks that were sold in denominations that didn't line up with the cost of the DLC, and putting the DLC on sale like once a decade), and on the Oculus side we have the Facebook requirement.
And even with all those "rebels" Steam is still at least 70% of the PC gaming market. Blizzard only managed to stay off Steam because they hit it big with WoW merely one year after Steam's launch and they've kept their modern games away from any platform other than B.net. And ActivisionBlizzard has a massive marketing machine that is well versed in hyping up any new game they launch, they've even managed to generate some positive buzz for Diablo Immortal.

As far as Oculus goes, if you want an Index and don't live in NA you should expect to pay several times what you need to get an Oculus. Valve is basically killing their own product for anyone not in NA, which of course has an impact on the popularity of the store in the VR space.

Just a reminder, Blizzard released Diablo 3 on PS3 and 4. Notably, you could play D3 in offline mode on the console but not on PC.
29.
 
Re: Epic v. Apple Exhibits
May 4, 2021, 15:29
29.
Re: Epic v. Apple Exhibits May 4, 2021, 15:29
May 4, 2021, 15:29
 
Valve doesn't need to pay for exclusives because they don't need to entice devs to release a game on their store. Devs will do it because you would be crazy not to target their market.

Exclusivity, along with it's guaranteed income, and being promoted to a market where you are liable to be a bigger dog, is an incentive for a store that has a much lower market share.

Anyway, steam also doesn't need to pay for exclusives because they have their own tools that give them exclusives anyway. You people always seem to conveniently forget that steamworks exists. Yes, it is a more meaningful value-add than just paying someone, but often effectively means the game is exclusive to steam as well. It started with skyrim (if you bought it in a store it would install steam off of the dvd) and continues to this day.

All these companies, valve included, want the same thing. Customers to get stuck in their ecosystem and pay them for life.
28.
 
Re: Epic v. Apple Exhibits
May 4, 2021, 14:33
28.
Re: Epic v. Apple Exhibits May 4, 2021, 14:33
May 4, 2021, 14:33
 
jdreyer wrote on May 4, 2021, 01:01:
But with 75% of the market, you have to be on Steam, or you'll go out of business. Even EA has cried "Uncle" on that point.
>League of Legends has entered chat<
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27.
 
Re: Epic v. Apple Exhibits
May 4, 2021, 12:17
27.
Re: Epic v. Apple Exhibits May 4, 2021, 12:17
May 4, 2021, 12:17
 
jdreyer wrote on May 3, 2021, 23:34:
Epic paid devs nearly $12 million for 9 months of Epic Games Store free games.

That's actually a lot less than I would have thought.

Now I'm curious how much they paid for those timed exclusives, besides the BL3 one.

That was only the first 9 months, where the Batman deal was most expensive at $1.5m. The BL3 article explains that part of that $146m figure was $11m for giving away the Handsome Collection and $20m for Civilization VI. So their free game costs have risen drastically since then. Wouldn't shock me if GTA V was $100m+.

This comment was edited on May 4, 2021, 14:42.
26.
 
Re: Epic v. Apple Exhibits
May 4, 2021, 11:44
26.
Re: Epic v. Apple Exhibits May 4, 2021, 11:44
May 4, 2021, 11:44
 
Anyone who wants to break open Apple is a "good guy" AFAIAC...;)
It is well known that I don't make mistakes--so, if you should happen across an error in something I have written, you can be confident in the fact that *I* did not write it.
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25.
 
Re: Epic v. Apple Exhibits
May 4, 2021, 11:19
25.
Re: Epic v. Apple Exhibits May 4, 2021, 11:19
May 4, 2021, 11:19
 
LurkerLito wrote on May 4, 2021, 09:54:
Orogogus wrote on May 4, 2021, 01:49:
I believe there's a dispensation for temporary, short-term sale prices. Right now, the GTA V Premium Edition is $15 on the EGS and $30 on Steam with no coupons involved. Frostpunk is $10.20 on GOG.com and $30 on Steam. And obviously when the EGS or GOG gives away games the developers aren't matching that on Steam.
Actually if you follow the prices, they are uniform. Yes they don't have to match all the time like when store sales don't line up between stores, but if you look at the actual prices, now that GoG is selling Frostpunk for $10.20 it will also be on steam for that exact same price or lower the next time it goes on sale on Steam. Steam does not allow devs or publishers to sell at a lower price on any other store. If they do allow the price to be lowered in one store, they must match that price on steam. That's why if you see a game on sale on any other store EA, GoG, Ubisoft, Epic, etc... you can guarantee that price (at a minimum) will be the same on steam next time it is on sale.

As an example, Horizon Zero Dawn was a BIG game release. It had a generous day one price discount, it was released on steam several months earlier than GoG so Steam got a majority of the sales. When they actually surprised people and also released it on GoG, they matched the day one discount on GoG, but in order to take away some sales from GoG, steam price matched GoG as a "sale" at the same time.

As far as short giveaways go, yeah that is about the only time I can say I haven't seen steam matching them, but I am pretty sure that if steam decided they wanted them to match those giveaway deals under the same terms given to the publishers/devs at other stores then the publishers/devs would have to comply. I am pretty sure those giveaways as far as the publishers/devs go are actually "purchased" at cost by the store giving them away. That's probably why steam doesn't match them.
Isthereanydeal.com shows that the lowest historical price for Frostpunk on Steam was $10.19, while it was $8.99 on GOG.com.
24.
 
Re: Epic v. Apple Exhibits
May 4, 2021, 10:53
Verno
 
24.
Re: Epic v. Apple Exhibits May 4, 2021, 10:53
May 4, 2021, 10:53
 Verno
 
jdreyer wrote on May 3, 2021, 23:32:
Ongoing antitrust investigations:
Apple: US, Europe
Google: US, Europe
Epic: none

And yet somehow Epic is the bad guy.

It's interesting that you see this as heroes and villains. I see it as a bunch of businesses jockeying for position. Epic is not "the good guy" here by any means, they are no stranger to actions that are anti-consumer.
Playing: Xenoblade Chronicles DE, Ys IX, God of War
Watching: Lupin, You me and the Apocalypse, Days of Thunder
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23.
 
Re: Epic v. Apple Exhibits
May 4, 2021, 10:40
PHJF
 
23.
Re: Epic v. Apple Exhibits May 4, 2021, 10:40
May 4, 2021, 10:40
 PHJF
 
That's why if you see a game on sale on any other store EA, GoG, Ubisoft, Epic, etc... you can guarantee that price (at a minimum) will be the same on steam next time it is on sale.

Jesus christ stop repeating this bull shit. The only price that must match between stores is the list price.
Steam + PSN: PHJF
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22.
 
Re: Epic v. Apple Exhibits
May 4, 2021, 09:54
22.
Re: Epic v. Apple Exhibits May 4, 2021, 09:54
May 4, 2021, 09:54
 
Orogogus wrote on May 4, 2021, 01:49:
I believe there's a dispensation for temporary, short-term sale prices. Right now, the GTA V Premium Edition is $15 on the EGS and $30 on Steam with no coupons involved. Frostpunk is $10.20 on GOG.com and $30 on Steam. And obviously when the EGS or GOG gives away games the developers aren't matching that on Steam.
Actually if you follow the prices, they are uniform. Yes they don't have to match all the time like when store sales don't line up between stores, but if you look at the actual prices, now that GoG is selling Frostpunk for $10.20 it will also be on steam for that exact same price or lower the next time it goes on sale on Steam. Steam does not allow devs or publishers to sell at a lower price on any other store. If they do allow the price to be lowered in one store, they must match that price on steam. That's why if you see a game on sale on any other store EA, GoG, Ubisoft, Epic, etc... you can guarantee that price (at a minimum) will be the same on steam next time it is on sale.

As an example, Horizon Zero Dawn was a BIG game release. It had a generous day one price discount, it was released on steam several months earlier than GoG so Steam got a majority of the sales. When they actually surprised people and also released it on GoG, they matched the day one discount on GoG, but in order to take away some sales from GoG, steam price matched GoG as a "sale" at the same time.

As far as short giveaways go, yeah that is about the only time I can say I haven't seen steam matching them, but I am pretty sure that if steam decided they wanted them to match those giveaway deals under the same terms given to the publishers/devs at other stores then the publishers/devs would have to comply. I am pretty sure those giveaways as far as the publishers/devs go are actually "purchased" at cost by the store giving them away. That's probably why steam doesn't match them.
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21.
 
Re: Epic v. Apple Exhibits
May 4, 2021, 07:16
21.
Re: Epic v. Apple Exhibits May 4, 2021, 07:16
May 4, 2021, 07:16
 
Orogogus wrote on May 4, 2021, 01:49:
LurkerLito wrote on May 4, 2021, 00:20:
Kxmode wrote on May 3, 2021, 21:13:
Companies that put their games on Steam are free to sell on any other PC platform without hindrance from Valve.
Yes and no. A company can sell any of their games on any other platform but they are NOT allowed to undercut steam's prices. That's why epic could only undercut steam's prices during their sale by giving out $10 coupons, if they actually reflected a lower price in the sale, that company would have to match those prices on steam also or they'd be in violation of their steam contract.
I believe there's a dispensation for temporary, short-term sale prices. Right now, the GTA V Premium Edition is $15 on the EGS and $30 on Steam with no coupons involved. Frostpunk is $10.20 on GOG.com and $30 on Steam. And obviously when the EGS or GOG gives away games the developers aren't matching that on Steam.

jdreyer wrote on May 4, 2021, 01:01:
But with 75% of the market, you have to be on Steam, or you'll go out of business.
EA might have cried Uncle, but Blizzard doesn't look like it's going to fold any time soon, and there are other standouts like Minecraft, Roblox, League of Legends, Crossfire and Genshin Impact. My impression is that the Oculus Store is beating Steam in VR game sales. Not everything's automatically a huge win for gamers when it breaks free of Steam, though. When EA originally stopped selling on Steam they immediately dove into the terrible DLC practices Valve wouldn't let them get away with (notably, forcing people to buy Mass Effect DLC using Bioware bucks that were sold in denominations that didn't line up with the cost of the DLC, and putting the DLC on sale like once a decade), and on the Oculus side we have the Facebook requirement.
And even with all those "rebels" Steam is still at least 70% of the PC gaming market. Blizzard only managed to stay off Steam because they hit it big with WoW merely one year after Steam's launch and they've kept their modern games away from any platform other than B.net. And ActivisionBlizzard has a massive marketing machine that is well versed in hyping up any new game they launch, they've even managed to generate some positive buzz for Diablo Immortal.

As far as Oculus goes, if you want an Index and don't live in NA you should expect to pay several times what you need to get an Oculus. Valve is basically killing their own product for anyone not in NA, which of course has an impact on the popularity of the store in the VR space.
20.
 
Re: Epic v. Apple Exhibits
May 4, 2021, 06:44
20.
Re: Epic v. Apple Exhibits May 4, 2021, 06:44
May 4, 2021, 06:44
 
The thing that goes whoosh past most kibitizers is that this is about Apple charging 30% for any and all micro-transactions made within an app. Forget about the 30%-15% cut of the games cost to purchase, no one cares about that as traditionally that can be what ever the market can bear. So you have an app that brokers buying a car and the app costs $20 to buy with $6 going to Apple. But if you use the app to close a deal on a $40,000 car and pay for it, Mr. Cook wants $12,000. That is monopoly rent as no other online store anywhere can sell Apple apps, Apple is entitled to the purchase price tax but any and all online cash transactions via the app just does not fly.

Also the other fact that goes whoosh over the early Idiocracy adopters is there are at least 40 online game stores out there, and has been for some time, there is plenty of competition and ways to end run Valves so called price lock, discounted gray market keys anyone?
"Meet the new Boss, same as the old Boss." - The Who.
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19.
 
Re: Epic v. Apple Exhibits
May 4, 2021, 03:46
19.
Re: Epic v. Apple Exhibits May 4, 2021, 03:46
May 4, 2021, 03:46
 
Orogogus wrote on May 4, 2021, 01:49:
When EA originally stopped selling on Steam they immediately dove into the terrible DLC practices Valve wouldn't let them get away with (notably, forcing people to buy Mass Effect DLC using Bioware bucks that were sold in denominations that didn't line up with the cost of the DLC, and putting the DLC on sale like once a decade)

Just to clarify, Valve didn't care how terrible the offerings were, only that EA was pulling the OG Sweeney move and intentionally trying to avoid giving them any cut of those sales. Games like Crysis 2 and Dragon Age 2 launched on Steam and were subsequently pulled because EA refused to make the DLCs available for purchase on the Steam store as well as their own in-game option (at the time, Valve had just introduced support for F2P games and microtransactions). So EA whined about being "restricted in how they interact with their customers" and a few months later Battlefield 3 launched Origin. Crysis 2 returned to Steam after a year or so as an all-inclusive edition with no in-game purchases, but they kept milking the Bioware Points thing for years.
18.
 
Re: Epic v. Apple Exhibits
May 4, 2021, 01:49
18.
Re: Epic v. Apple Exhibits May 4, 2021, 01:49
May 4, 2021, 01:49
 
LurkerLito wrote on May 4, 2021, 00:20:
Kxmode wrote on May 3, 2021, 21:13:
Companies that put their games on Steam are free to sell on any other PC platform without hindrance from Valve.
Yes and no. A company can sell any of their games on any other platform but they are NOT allowed to undercut steam's prices. That's why epic could only undercut steam's prices during their sale by giving out $10 coupons, if they actually reflected a lower price in the sale, that company would have to match those prices on steam also or they'd be in violation of their steam contract.
I believe there's a dispensation for temporary, short-term sale prices. Right now, the GTA V Premium Edition is $15 on the EGS and $30 on Steam with no coupons involved. Frostpunk is $10.20 on GOG.com and $30 on Steam. And obviously when the EGS or GOG gives away games the developers aren't matching that on Steam.

jdreyer wrote on May 4, 2021, 01:01:
But with 75% of the market, you have to be on Steam, or you'll go out of business.
EA might have cried Uncle, but Blizzard doesn't look like it's going to fold any time soon, and there are other standouts like Minecraft, Roblox, League of Legends, Crossfire and Genshin Impact. My impression is that the Oculus Store is beating Steam in VR game sales. Not everything's automatically a huge win for gamers when it breaks free of Steam, though. When EA originally stopped selling on Steam they immediately dove into the terrible DLC practices Valve wouldn't let them get away with (notably, forcing people to buy Mass Effect DLC using Bioware bucks that were sold in denominations that didn't line up with the cost of the DLC, and putting the DLC on sale like once a decade), and on the Oculus side we have the Facebook requirement.
17.
 
Re: Epic v. Apple Exhibits
May 4, 2021, 01:15
Jaxx
 
17.
Re: Epic v. Apple Exhibits May 4, 2021, 01:15
May 4, 2021, 01:15
 Jaxx
 
Kxmode wrote on May 3, 2021, 21:03:

The thing is, everybody charges 30% and has since the '80s at least! Microsoft, Nintendo, Sony all charge 30% for their respective platforms. That's just the price of doing business on a proprietary branded platform. It's not just the platform. A company also pays for the brand name they sell their product on and access to the userbase who buy products for that platform. Epic didn't say anything until Fortnite made them billions. Now they want to "change the world," or so they claim. That's not going to happen after they violated Apple's TOS agreement. Out of the gate, Epic took an arrow to the knee. That doesn't sound like a person thinking each step. It sounds like a person wildly swinging at success, hoping to reach it before their 15-minutes of fame dies (and with Fortnite's number waning, Epic's 15-minutes is almost up).

Epic charges 12%.they started that in 2017/18, iirc. Microsoft announced they will be going to an 88/12 split as well, starting July 1.
16.
 
Re: Epic v. Apple Exhibits
May 4, 2021, 01:01
16.
Re: Epic v. Apple Exhibits May 4, 2021, 01:01
May 4, 2021, 01:01
 
LurkerLito wrote on May 4, 2021, 00:20:
Kxmode wrote on May 3, 2021, 21:13:
Companies that put their games on Steam are free to sell on any other PC platform without hindrance from Valve.
Yes and no. A company can sell any of their games on any other platform but they are NOT allowed to undercut steam's prices. That's why epic could only undercut steam's prices during their sale by giving out $10 coupons, if they actually reflected a lower price in the sale, that company would have to match those prices on steam also or they'd be in violation of their steam contract.
Yes, and the reason they're able enforce this rule is because they have 75% of the market. If they had 10% of the market, devs and publishers would tell them to take a hike. But with 75% of the market, you have to be on Steam, or you'll go out of business. Even EA has cried "Uncle" on that point.
'I am' is reportedly the shortest sentence in the English language. Could it be that 'I do' is the longest sentence? - GC
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15.
 
Re: Epic v. Apple Exhibits
May 4, 2021, 00:20
15.
Re: Epic v. Apple Exhibits May 4, 2021, 00:20
May 4, 2021, 00:20
 
Kxmode wrote on May 3, 2021, 21:13:
Companies that put their games on Steam are free to sell on any other PC platform without hindrance from Valve.
Yes and no. A company can sell any of their games on any other platform but they are NOT allowed to undercut steam's prices. That's why epic could only undercut steam's prices during their sale by giving out $10 coupons, if they actually reflected a lower price in the sale, that company would have to match those prices on steam also or they'd be in violation of their steam contract.
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