Op Ed

  • GamesIndustry.biz - Tim Sweeney is right - Epic losses on its Game Store are a good investment - Opinion.
    "Losing hundreds of millions of dollars on launching a product or platform into a hugely saturated market dominated by a major player, or players, is exactly what you need to do up front if you have an ambition to compete in that market. There's no "plucky upstart" way of Minimum Viable Product-ing your way into competition with a platform like Steam; you could potentially take a start-up style MVP approach to create a niche platform that fulfils a very specific role which Steam does poorly, but actually directly competing with Steam for market dominance is far out of reach of that kind of approach."
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22.
 
Re: Op Ed
Apr 17, 2021, 16:03
22.
Re: Op Ed Apr 17, 2021, 16:03
Apr 17, 2021, 16:03
 
Acleacius wrote on Apr 17, 2021, 11:52:
I'm really confused then, afaik "Most Favored Nation Clause" just states "everyone has to 'start at the same base rate' ".
I really don't see how that's unfair to customers or business. Aamof, I see it as a "Protection Clause" FOR customers and businesses.
Anyone is free to reduce the price at anytime for sales or giveaways.
This 'clause' is to prevent companies like m$ from paying off or threatening businesses, which they were 'found guilty' of at least twice, iirc.
It prevents price competition, the foundation of any free market economy.
'I am' is reportedly the shortest sentence in the English language. Could it be that 'I do' is the longest sentence? - GC
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21.
 
Re: Op Ed
Apr 17, 2021, 11:52
21.
Re: Op Ed Apr 17, 2021, 11:52
Apr 17, 2021, 11:52
 
I'm really confused then, afaik "Most Favored Nation Clause" just states "everyone has to 'start at the same base rate' ".
I really don't see how that's unfair to customers or business. Aamof, I see it as a "Protection Clause" FOR customers and businesses.
Anyone is free to reduce the price at anytime for sales or giveaways.
This 'clause' is to prevent companies like m$ from paying off or threatening businesses, which they were 'found guilty' of at least twice, iirc.
‘What is this bullshit that you people are doing?’
The worst criminal in human history, undeniably.
Beating and Gassing Americans for Jesus!
Ain't no tweetin, in jail jammies!
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20.
 
Re: Op Ed
Apr 17, 2021, 06:53
20.
Re: Op Ed Apr 17, 2021, 06:53
Apr 17, 2021, 06:53
 
Surprisingly GameIndustry.biz actually posts something that makes economic sense and is not some Marxist drivel.

The cloud is the future of gaming. It has already become the prime distribution method for movies, TV and music. When services like Stadia and GeForceNow become commoditized the Steams, Epics, and Uplay game sellers and repositories will clean up. Apple is just a sideshow.
"Meet the new Boss, same as the old Boss." - The Who.
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19.
 
Re: Op Ed
Apr 17, 2021, 00:10
19.
Re: Op Ed Apr 17, 2021, 00:10
Apr 17, 2021, 00:10
 
RedEye9 wrote on Apr 16, 2021, 21:48:
*Amazon famously lost money for its first 17 straight quarters as a public company, bleeding a combined $2.8 billion. Once Amazon did start making money, it made very little of it. Amazon would report tens of billions of dollars of sales each quarter but a mere tens or hundreds of millions of dollars of profit.
I remember trying Amazon out when it was just books. I wish I had been intrigued enough to follow the company and invest when they IPO'd. Ah well...
“Extinction is the rule. Survival is the exception.” -- Carl Sagan
18.
 
Re: Op Ed
Apr 16, 2021, 23:37
18.
Re: Op Ed Apr 16, 2021, 23:37
Apr 16, 2021, 23:37
 
jdreyer wrote on Apr 16, 2021, 17:47:
chickenboo wrote on Apr 16, 2021, 14:49:
Cutter wrote on Apr 16, 2021, 13:13:
The reasons I'm opposed to Epic is because of their exclusives and shitty client that has zero features that have been standard on Steam for over a decade. Get rid of the first and improve the latter and you don't need to do all those giveaways to get traffic, just compete on price. If they were doing that and I could save a buck or five at one store or the other they'd get my business. There's a reason ITAD is so very popular.
Problem here is that the Steam agreement (and I may be wrong here) requires that you price your game the same on all other sales platforms. If you're selling your game on Steam, GOG, and EGS, you must set the base price of the game the same on all platforms. It's known as the "Most Favored Nation" clause and ensures that players don't get special discounts on different platforms on the base price. Obviously GOG and EGS are able to offer their own discounts during sale periods, and you'll find keys on GMG or WinGameStore under heavy discount.

It's funny how people complain about EGS exclusives, a perfectly acceptable business practice called "differentiation," but completely ignore Steam's "Most Favored Nation" clause, only enforceable because of Steam's monopolistic position in the PC Gaming market.
1) Didn't even know about it
2)I check places that sell Steam keys
3) Honestly I'll pay a bit more or even double dip if I like the game enough to have it in my Steam account.
4) Loyalty. And I really can't STAND Tim Sweeny. I'll pay more someplace else not to deal with lying bullshit artists (also the reason I refunded my Star Citizen package when S42 and SC were together for 1 price).

But I have seen Humble Bundle, even Epic Game Store (might be because of their 10 dollar coupon they do), and even direct from the publisher at times lower then Steam.
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17.
 
Re: Op Ed
Apr 16, 2021, 21:48
17.
Re: Op Ed Apr 16, 2021, 21:48
Apr 16, 2021, 21:48
 
How many Huuuge business first started out losing tons of money, and a few of them* had no real competition in the market place. This article is stating the obvious.

*Amazon famously lost money for its first 17 straight quarters as a public company, bleeding a combined $2.8 billion. Once Amazon did start making money, it made very little of it. Amazon would report tens of billions of dollars of sales each quarter but a mere tens or hundreds of millions of dollars of profit.
- I refer to it as BC, Before Corona, and AD, After Disaster. -
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16.
 
Re: Op Ed
Apr 16, 2021, 20:51
16.
Re: Op Ed Apr 16, 2021, 20:51
Apr 16, 2021, 20:51
 
Rob Fahey's opinion is full of shit, opinion. What type of successful economy works that way, besides drug dealers?
Succeeding in business no longer requires viable products, competitive prices, customer relations or customer support?
Then capitalism has failed, and now only market domination monopolies are viable according to this fucking genius opinion.
He jumped right past Socialism too, even though every first world country has it's society based on it, some for thousands of years.

I'll be lucky if this gets past, and is allowed to be posted. But it was nearly impossible to hold back what I really think about this clown's opinion.

Fixed, only addresses his opinion.

This comment was edited on Apr 16, 2021, 21:18.
‘What is this bullshit that you people are doing?’
The worst criminal in human history, undeniably.
Beating and Gassing Americans for Jesus!
Ain't no tweetin, in jail jammies!
Avatar 1858
15.
 
Re: Op Ed
Apr 16, 2021, 20:36
Prez
 
15.
Re: Op Ed Apr 16, 2021, 20:36
Apr 16, 2021, 20:36
 Prez
 
I kinda get the "one consolidated platform" thing, despite being pro-competition. People say it comes down to which icon you click to run the game, and I suppose that's technically true, but what happens years later after you uninstall the game then are trying to remember which platform it's on so you can re-install it? Currently it's not that bad; there's Steam, Epic, Origin, GoG, Microsoft, Sony, Uplay, and Nintendo. Not too bad. But take a look at tv and movie streaming services. Jesus, there are lists that go on to over 40, and I'm not sure includes them all. What if gaming ever got to that point? I think at that point I'd be glad I kept all of my games on just a couple of services. I wonder if that drives people to Steam despite exclusivity and better deals.
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
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14.
 
Re: Op Ed
Apr 16, 2021, 20:21
14.
Re: Op Ed Apr 16, 2021, 20:21
Apr 16, 2021, 20:21
 
jdreyer wrote on Apr 16, 2021, 17:47:
chickenboo wrote on Apr 16, 2021, 14:49:
Cutter wrote on Apr 16, 2021, 13:13:
The reasons I'm opposed to Epic is because of their exclusives and shitty client that has zero features that have been standard on Steam for over a decade. Get rid of the first and improve the latter and you don't need to do all those giveaways to get traffic, just compete on price. If they were doing that and I could save a buck or five at one store or the other they'd get my business. There's a reason ITAD is so very popular.
Problem here is that the Steam agreement (and I may be wrong here) requires that you price your game the same on all other sales platforms. If you're selling your game on Steam, GOG, and EGS, you must set the base price of the game the same on all platforms. It's known as the "Most Favored Nation" clause and ensures that players don't get special discounts on different platforms on the base price. Obviously GOG and EGS are able to offer their own discounts during sale periods, and you'll find keys on GMG or WinGameStore under heavy discount.

It's funny how people complain about EGS exclusives, a perfectly acceptable business practice called "differentiation," but completely ignore Steam's "Most Favored Nation" clause, only enforceable because of Steam's monopolistic position in the PC Gaming market.

Governments engage in MFN. It's the reason China is the powerhouse it is today and not back in the dark ages where it belongs. MFN screws us over too. It's only a benefit to the elites. That is still a world a way from paid exclusives.

"You have enemies? Good. That means you’ve stood up for something, sometime in your life."
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13.
 
Re: Op Ed
Apr 16, 2021, 19:24
13.
Re: Op Ed Apr 16, 2021, 19:24
Apr 16, 2021, 19:24
 
thestryker wrote on Apr 16, 2021, 17:15:
Orogogus wrote on Apr 16, 2021, 14:52:
GMG has a more restrictive refund policy -- 7 days from purchase (14 in the EU), no refunds once a game is activated or downloaded, no refunds for 48 hours before a launch.

I didn't even think about that, because I do research on games before I spend any money, and the only game I've ever refunded was one I didn't so this isn't something I usually consider. I still wouldn't pay full price, but I could see someone gaming the system and refunding on Steam then buying through GMG at the lower price.

I will note the game in question had an extensive demo released over a month before it came out which reflected everything but end game (you obviously wouldn't get to end game in the refund window) so it shouldn't really apply in this instance.
You never really know if a demo has the same technical quirks as the full game -- often the full game gets fixes and improved optimization over its lifetime, but the demo is left as-is. Technical capability isn't something you can necessarily research unless you only buy games where no one has any technical issues (like, maybe point and click adventures?). And outside of Metro, for VR games no one can really tell you if a game will make you sick or not, it's something you have to try for yourself and see.

I know Kxmode has complained about Valve's 2 hour window as too strict, but I think "no refunds after downloading" is an extremely unforgiving policy. In theory, Steam, Origin, GOG and the EGS at least give you the peace of mind that you'll get past the loading screen.
12.
 
Re: Op Ed
Apr 16, 2021, 18:31
12.
Re: Op Ed Apr 16, 2021, 18:31
Apr 16, 2021, 18:31
 
I agree with Sweeney... while i am "getting" another 3 FREE games this week.

“I am not a Mac user unless under duress.” - John Carmack
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11.
 
Re: Op Ed
Apr 16, 2021, 17:52
11.
Re: Op Ed Apr 16, 2021, 17:52
Apr 16, 2021, 17:52
 
JohnBirshire wrote on Apr 16, 2021, 17:36:
I hope you continue to lose $100's of millions until it's billions and you throw in the towel, take your anti-consumerist exclusivity behavior and bounce.
Steam isn't losing millions or billions though.
'I am' is reportedly the shortest sentence in the English language. Could it be that 'I do' is the longest sentence? - GC
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10.
 
Re: Op Ed
Apr 16, 2021, 17:51
10.
Re: Op Ed Apr 16, 2021, 17:51
Apr 16, 2021, 17:51
 
thestryker wrote on Apr 16, 2021, 17:15:
I didn't even think about that, because I do research on games before I spend any money, and the only game I've ever refunded was one I didn't so this isn't something I usually consider. I still wouldn't pay full price, but I could see someone gaming the system and refunding on Steam then buying through GMG at the lower price.
Steam doesn't allow unlimited refunds, so this will only take you so far.
'I am' is reportedly the shortest sentence in the English language. Could it be that 'I do' is the longest sentence? - GC
Avatar 22024
9.
 
Re: Op Ed
Apr 16, 2021, 17:47
9.
Re: Op Ed Apr 16, 2021, 17:47
Apr 16, 2021, 17:47
 
chickenboo wrote on Apr 16, 2021, 14:49:
Cutter wrote on Apr 16, 2021, 13:13:
The reasons I'm opposed to Epic is because of their exclusives and shitty client that has zero features that have been standard on Steam for over a decade. Get rid of the first and improve the latter and you don't need to do all those giveaways to get traffic, just compete on price. If they were doing that and I could save a buck or five at one store or the other they'd get my business. There's a reason ITAD is so very popular.
Problem here is that the Steam agreement (and I may be wrong here) requires that you price your game the same on all other sales platforms. If you're selling your game on Steam, GOG, and EGS, you must set the base price of the game the same on all platforms. It's known as the "Most Favored Nation" clause and ensures that players don't get special discounts on different platforms on the base price. Obviously GOG and EGS are able to offer their own discounts during sale periods, and you'll find keys on GMG or WinGameStore under heavy discount.
It's funny how people complain about EGS exclusives, a perfectly acceptable business practice called "differentiation," but completely ignore Steam's "Most Favored Nation" clause, only enforceable because of Steam's monopolistic position in the PC Gaming market.
'I am' is reportedly the shortest sentence in the English language. Could it be that 'I do' is the longest sentence? - GC
Avatar 22024
8.
 
Re: Op Ed
Apr 16, 2021, 17:36
8.
Re: Op Ed Apr 16, 2021, 17:36
Apr 16, 2021, 17:36
 
I hope you continue to lose $100's of millions until it's billions and you throw in the towel, take your anti-consumerist exclusivity behavior and bounce.

7.
 
Re: Op Ed
Apr 16, 2021, 17:15
7.
Re: Op Ed Apr 16, 2021, 17:15
Apr 16, 2021, 17:15
 
Cutter wrote on Apr 16, 2021, 14:46:
thestryker wrote on Apr 16, 2021, 13:34:
People rushing to buy Metro Exodus before the Steam pre-orders went away at $10 higher than the EGS price proves the fallacy of competing just on price. There are definitely a lot of us who do care about price, but there appears to be an even bigger amount who just don't care.

No it doesn't. Those same people are have the same POV as I and most other gamers do in this regard - no to exclusives, their client sucks. People would rather pay that extra 10 bucks than support Epic because of how they do business and barebones client. That's what it proves.

You're trying to say you're taking a stand against exclusives yet paying more of your money to the company who chose to make it an exclusive backs this up? People wanted it on their preferred platform now is all that was really about, because if there was some stand to be made about exclusives it would be to not buy the game or wait until it was back on Steam and at a lower price.

Orogogus wrote on Apr 16, 2021, 14:52:
thestryker wrote on Apr 16, 2021, 13:34:
Every time a new game comes out and is on the Steam top seller I just don't understand why. Outriders is a great example: GMG had it at least 20% off for the 3-4 weeks leading to launch and at least a week after launch so why would anyone buy it direct from Steam at full price?

GMG has a more restrictive refund policy -- 7 days from purchase (14 in the EU), no refunds once a game is activated or downloaded, no refunds for 48 hours before a launch.

I didn't even think about that, because I do research on games before I spend any money, and the only game I've ever refunded was one I didn't so this isn't something I usually consider. I still wouldn't pay full price, but I could see someone gaming the system and refunding on Steam then buying through GMG at the lower price.

I will note the game in question had an extensive demo released over a month before it came out which reflected everything but end game (you obviously wouldn't get to end game in the refund window) so it shouldn't really apply in this instance.
6.
 
Re: Op Ed
Apr 16, 2021, 14:52
6.
Re: Op Ed Apr 16, 2021, 14:52
Apr 16, 2021, 14:52
 
thestryker wrote on Apr 16, 2021, 13:34:
Every time a new game comes out and is on the Steam top seller I just don't understand why. Outriders is a great example: GMG had it at least 20% off for the 3-4 weeks leading to launch and at least a week after launch so why would anyone buy it direct from Steam at full price?

GMG has a more restrictive refund policy -- 7 days from purchase (14 in the EU), no refunds once a game is activated or downloaded, no refunds for 48 hours before a launch.
5.
 
Re: Op Ed
Apr 16, 2021, 14:49
5.
Re: Op Ed Apr 16, 2021, 14:49
Apr 16, 2021, 14:49
 
Cutter wrote on Apr 16, 2021, 13:13:
The reasons I'm opposed to Epic is because of their exclusives and shitty client that has zero features that have been standard on Steam for over a decade. Get rid of the first and improve the latter and you don't need to do all those giveaways to get traffic, just compete on price. If they were doing that and I could save a buck or five at one store or the other they'd get my business. There's a reason ITAD is so very popular.
Problem here is that the Steam agreement (and I may be wrong here) requires that you price your game the same on all other sales platforms. If you're selling your game on Steam, GOG, and EGS, you must set the base price of the game the same on all platforms. It's known as the "Most Favored Nation" clause and ensures that players don't get special discounts on different platforms on the base price. Obviously GOG and EGS are able to offer their own discounts during sale periods, and you'll find keys on GMG or WinGameStore under heavy discount.
So the issue here is if you have to price your new game at $60 across all stores, the only way EGS can offer a compelling sale price that beats out Steam's sale price is by offering a direct subsidy to the player. We've seen this as $10 off any game on top of the sale discount, where EGS is directly eating that cost.
EGS always touted the reduced store cut of 5% or 18% as a cost savings for players, but I don't think we've seen that actually happen yet. A publisher isn't going to say "okay sure let's let the consumer have a win here", they're going to want that additional 12% revenue for themselves.
This means two things: 1) EGS has spent hundreds of millions of dollars to become a heavyweight digital sales competitor to Steam even though consumers won't win on game discounts or see lower priced games thanks to the reduced EGS revenue cut, and 2) We will continue to see EGS exclusives as it's the only way to force players to purchase games from EGS. If Tim Sweeney was fine with players choosing to buy anywhere, he wouldn't make the games exclusive.
4.
 
Re: Op Ed
Apr 16, 2021, 14:46
4.
Re: Op Ed Apr 16, 2021, 14:46
Apr 16, 2021, 14:46
 
thestryker wrote on Apr 16, 2021, 13:34:
People rushing to buy Metro Exodus before the Steam pre-orders went away at $10 higher than the EGS price proves the fallacy of competing just on price. There are definitely a lot of us who do care about price, but there appears to be an even bigger amount who just don't care.

No it doesn't. Those same people are have the same POV as I and most other gamers do in this regard - no to exclusives, their client sucks. People would rather pay that extra 10 bucks than support Epic because of how they do business and barebones client. That's what it proves.


"You have enemies? Good. That means you’ve stood up for something, sometime in your life."
Avatar 25394
3.
 
Re: Op Ed
Apr 16, 2021, 13:34
3.
Re: Op Ed Apr 16, 2021, 13:34
Apr 16, 2021, 13:34
 
People rushing to buy Metro Exodus before the Steam pre-orders went away at $10 higher than the EGS price proves the fallacy of competing just on price. There are definitely a lot of us who do care about price, but there appears to be an even bigger amount who just don't care.

Every time a new game comes out and is on the Steam top seller I just don't understand why. Outriders is a great example: GMG had it at least 20% off for the 3-4 weeks leading to launch and at least a week after launch so why would anyone buy it direct from Steam at full price?

Even with feature parity I can guarantee that EGS would not have made a big enough impact to be a viable general storefront. EA's Origin proved this as they almost had feature parity when it launched (plus refunds) and they originally offered all sorts of third party games. This didn't work out third party titles were dropped pretty quickly.

I'm not particularly a fan of game exclusivity, but at the same time I take a gander at consoles and I'm just happy it's barely an inconvenience for me to play a game I want which launches on PC.
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