Razumen wrote on Mar 22, 2021, 20:46:

FloorPie wrote on Mar 22, 2021, 20:21:
I've burned out after 50 or so hours.

50 hours is more than enough time for me, and I'm sure I'll enjoy it a lot more when it's done than some other games where I've put twice that amount in, (like NMS, which turned out to be a pretty, but ultimately boring and pointless grind).

Eh, having played both I'd probably rather go back and play NMS again and I have less time in that than Valheim. I don't see me coming back to Valheim this year unless several friends get back into it. Its not a game I enjoy playing solo but NMS was tolerable solo.

Verno wrote on Mar 22, 2021, 19:58:

BIGtrouble77 wrote on Mar 22, 2021, 15:59:
All I was saying is that I don't believe the hardware's sales metrics are calculated the same as software. I think It's highly unlikely they are selling enough $1k VR setups to compete with the current crop of best selling games on a regular basis.

Do we know conclusively that valve hardware/software not having to give up a 30% cut doesn't factor into the ranking algorithm? They rank by revenue so if true Valve is likely to always get a 30% boost which is inflating their products, Index included. That's not a fucking conspiracy.

Again, the list is calculated based on revenue alone. You are wrong, they have been very successful at selling the Index and its often supply limited. The "30% cut" is also not a factor. The revenue reports are shared with partners and have been leaked before. Valve is sometimes in their own list by merit of their offerings, not a surprise considering what a successful company they are in general. Valve does promote their own games in their store, although they have a very fair ad sharing rotation in general.

There is no sense in getting angry at me, I've patiently explained it to you. Why are you so invested in this position? You were wrong, it happens to all of us, sheesh. It's not a big deal but you are making one out of it.

I'll give you all the benefit of the doubt. I admitted a couple times that I didn't know how some of the numbers are calculated and could be wrong, but the way it appears on the list looked suspect. I don't think I worded it such that "conspiracy" was justified.

FloorPie wrote on Mar 22, 2021, 20:21:
I've burned out after 50 or so hours.

50 hours is more than enough time for me, and I'm sure I'll enjoy it a lot more when it's done than some other games where I've put twice that amount in, (like NMS, which turned out to be a pretty, but ultimately boring and pointless grind).

Razumen wrote on Mar 22, 2021, 06:49:
Valheim really seems like my kind of game, tried it for a bit, but I'm going to force myself to wait until it's actually complete. I have no desire to playtest incomplete games.

I've burned out after 50 or so hours. Got the dragon boss down and all that is left is the plains zone with the annoying deathsquitos. I think most of the friends I was playing with are feeeling the same after a month now. No one has logged in to the server in a week I think.

So many little issues and bugs that annoy me that while I like the game, there is little point for me to continue playing it till they get some things fixed and more content. Even then, I doubt the finished game will grab me like other survival games have. It just gets too tedious.

BIGtrouble77 wrote on Mar 22, 2021, 15:59:
All I was saying is that I don't believe the hardware's sales metrics are calculated the same as software. I think It's highly unlikely they are selling enough $1k VR setups to compete with the current crop of best selling games on a regular basis.

Do we know conclusively that valve hardware/software not having to give up a 30% cut doesn't factor into the ranking algorithm? They rank by revenue so if true Valve is likely to always get a 30% boost which is inflating their products, Index included. That's not a fucking conspiracy.

Again, the list is calculated based on revenue alone. You are wrong, they have been very successful at selling the Index and its often supply limited. The "30% cut" is also not a factor. The revenue reports are shared with partners and have been leaked before. Valve is sometimes in their own list by merit of their offerings, not a surprise considering what a successful company they are in general. Valve does promote their own games in their store, although they have a very fair ad sharing rotation in general.

There is no sense in getting angry at me, I've patiently explained it to you. Why are you so invested in this position? You were wrong, it happens to all of us, sheesh. It's not a big deal but you are making one out of it.

Orogogus wrote on Mar 22, 2021, 17:06:

BIGtrouble77 wrote on Mar 22, 2021, 15:59:
All I was saying is that I don't believe the hardware's sales metrics are calculated the same as software. I think It's highly unlikely they are selling enough $1k VR setups to compete with the current crop of best selling games on a regular basis.

Do we know conclusively that valve hardware/software not having to give up a 30% cut doesn't factor into the ranking algorithm? They rank by revenue so if true Valve is likely to always get a 30% boost which is inflating their products, Index included. That's not a fucking conspiracy.

Valve calculates based on gross revenue, so the 30% cut wouldn't be a factor -- it's all the money paid by end users. The 30% is an expense for the publisher/developer, and would be taken out when calculating the net.

About half the games on the top 10 list are in the $15-20 range, so one Index sold would count for 50-67 copies of those games. GTA5 sold 20M copies in 2020, so say 1.7M/month, setting aside console and non-Steam PC sales. At $14.80, that comes out to about $25M, or 25K Indexes. The Quest 2 is said to have sold 1M units in 4Q 2020 (333K/month), which looks like a plausible ratio - ~10:1 units over the Index sounds like the right order of magnitude to me. If the Quest 2 were on this chart, it would be looking at $100M/month if everyone bought the cheap version, easily blowing past GTA5, and even Valhelm at #1 (4M copies in a month, so $80M).

areyouawizard.jpg

BIGtrouble77 wrote on Mar 22, 2021, 15:59:
All I was saying is that I don't believe the hardware's sales metrics are calculated the same as software. I think It's highly unlikely they are selling enough $1k VR setups to compete with the current crop of best selling games on a regular basis.

Do we know conclusively that valve hardware/software not having to give up a 30% cut doesn't factor into the ranking algorithm? They rank by revenue so if true Valve is likely to always get a 30% boost which is inflating their products, Index included. That's not a fucking conspiracy.

Valve calculates based on gross revenue, so the 30% cut wouldn't be a factor -- it's all the money paid by end users. The 30% is an expense for the publisher/developer, and would be taken out when calculating the net.

About half the games on the top 10 list are in the $15-20 range, so one Index sold would count for 50-67 copies of those games. GTA5 sold 20M copies in 2020, so say 1.7M/month, setting aside console and non-Steam PC sales. At $14.80, that comes out to about $25M, or 25K Indexes. The Quest 2 is said to have sold 1M units in 4Q 2020 (333K/month), which looks like a plausible ratio - ~10:1 units over the Index sounds like the right order of magnitude to me. If the Quest 2 were on this chart, it would be looking at $100M/month if everyone bought the cheap version, easily blowing past GTA5, and even Valhelm at #1 (4M copies in a month, so $80M).

Over 100 games in my Epic library and some of them were free.
No conspiracy.

Thinking Valve fudges the numbers so their hardware shows up high on their top ten list.

RedEye9 wrote on Mar 22, 2021, 16:15:
When digging a hole and there is a chance to climb out either step away from the shovel or keep digging.
Enjoy the hole.

You've been digging that Epic Games hole for over a year now. Is that shit eating grin you have permanent now?

When digging a hole and there is a chance to climb out either step away from the shovel or keep digging.
Enjoy the hole.

Verno wrote on Mar 22, 2021, 12:19:

BIGtrouble77 wrote on Mar 22, 2021, 11:18:
I'm just saying that I think it's highly unlikely the Index is getting that position purely based on organic sales, even at $1k. My guess is that Valve gives special consideration for ranking hardware (since only Valve sells hardware) to prop it up in the charts.

It's not a conspiracy, it's what most companies do. Google routinely props up paid search results, it's their business model.

They do not, the list is based on revenue. That's why hardware offerings sometimes crop up in there. It's also why we see identical games with different SKUs. There is no preferential treatment for Valve products, they routinely fall out of the list entirely.

Where you might see "promoted" entries is in the store itself.

All I was saying is that I don't believe the hardware's sales metrics are calculated the same as software. I think It's highly unlikely they are selling enough $1k VR setups to compete with the current crop of best selling games on a regular basis.

Do we know conclusively that valve hardware/software not having to give up a 30% cut doesn't factor into the ranking algorithm? They rank by revenue so if true Valve is likely to always get a 30% boost which is inflating their products, Index included. That's not a fucking conspiracy.

This comment was edited on Mar 22, 2021, 16:11.

Verno wrote on Mar 22, 2021, 12:19:

They do not, the list is based on revenue. That's why hardware offerings sometimes crop up in there. It's also why we see identical games with different SKUs. There is no preferential treatment for Valve products, they routinely fall out of the list entirely.

Ah, makes sense now, I thought is was based on numbers of units sold.

Razumen wrote on Mar 22, 2021, 08:41:

Bumpy wrote on Mar 22, 2021, 08:27:
I don't get how VR isn't raging; you would think there are millions of VR Index headsets out there since its been in the top 5 for months?

It is raging, lots of great VR games lately.

I feel the last few months have been pretty dry. My last VR purchases were Ragnarock (came out in December) and Star Wars Squadrons (October, and not a VR-only game). I'm looking forward to Star Wars Pinball VR, and if I had a Quest I'd have picked up The Climb 2, but so far 2021 hasn't been very exciting for VR. Is there anything that came out in 2021 I should take a closer look at?

BIGtrouble77 wrote on Mar 22, 2021, 11:18:
I'm just saying that I think it's highly unlikely the Index is getting that position purely based on organic sales, even at $1k. My guess is that Valve gives special consideration for ranking hardware (since only Valve sells hardware) to prop it up in the charts.

It's not a conspiracy, it's what most companies do. Google routinely props up paid search results, it's their business model.

They do not, the list is based on revenue. That's why hardware offerings sometimes crop up in there. It's also why we see identical games with different SKUs. There is no preferential treatment for Valve products, they routinely fall out of the list entirely.

Where you might see "promoted" entries is in the store itself.

HoSpanky wrote on Mar 22, 2021, 10:34:
VR is holding its footing, but you won't see VR games in Steam's top 10 for a while....especially since decent GPUs are impossible to get right now.

VR runs fine on older GPUs like on the 1060 and up. Plus some games like Phasmophobia, which were on the list, are arguably much better in VR.

BIGtrouble77 wrote on Mar 22, 2021, 11:18:

RedEye9 wrote on Mar 22, 2021, 10:48:

BIGtrouble77 wrote on Mar 22, 2021, 10:28:

Bumpy wrote on Mar 22, 2021, 08:27:
I don't get how VR isn't raging; you would think there are millions of VR Index headsets out there since its been in the top 5 for months?

Pretty sure Valve artificially props up the Index for exposure.

What do mean.

Does anything about “artificially props up” make any sense to you, is it some great conspiracy?

Are you saying it didn’t sell enough units to make it on the list?
You know the list is based on money and not units moved.
Or are you saying it came in at 3rd place but they put it at 2nd because ... reasons.

I'm just saying that I think it's highly unlikely the Index is getting that position purely based on organic sales, even at $1k. My guess is that Valve gives special consideration for ranking hardware (since only Valve sells hardware) to prop it up in the charts.

It's not a conspiracy, it's what most companies do. Google routinely props up paid search results, it's their business model.

Up until now the list has always been based on sales.
But you think that a spot on the list can be bought. interesting

In that case why didn’t valve/steam put it at the top of the list.

By your thinking the Steam Top 10 would read;
1. Valve Index VR Kit
2. Valve Index Headset + Controllers
3. Valve Index Headset
4. Valve Index Controllers
5. Valve Index Base Station
6. Half-Life: Alyx
7. The Orange Box

...

BIGtrouble77 wrote on Mar 22, 2021, 11:18:
It's not a conspiracy, it's what most companies do. Google routinely props up paid search results, it's their business model.

Dude, promoting ads is not the same as changing sales data. One is promotion, the other is straight up lying. You're literally spouting conspiracy theories because why...you don't like VR? Lol

RedEye9 wrote on Mar 22, 2021, 10:48:

BIGtrouble77 wrote on Mar 22, 2021, 10:28:

Bumpy wrote on Mar 22, 2021, 08:27:
I don't get how VR isn't raging; you would think there are millions of VR Index headsets out there since its been in the top 5 for months?

Pretty sure Valve artificially props up the Index for exposure.

What do mean.

Does anything about “artificially props up” make any sense to you, is it some great conspiracy?

Are you saying it didn’t sell enough units to make it on the list?
You know the list is based on money and not units moved.
Or are you saying it came in at 3rd place but they put it at 2nd because ... reasons.

I'm just saying that I think it's highly unlikely the Index is getting that position purely based on organic sales, even at $1k. My guess is that Valve gives special consideration for ranking hardware (since only Valve sells hardware) to prop it up in the charts.

It's not a conspiracy, it's what most companies do. Google routinely props up paid search results, it's their business model.

BIGtrouble77 wrote on Mar 22, 2021, 10:28:

Bumpy wrote on Mar 22, 2021, 08:27:
I don't get how VR isn't raging; you would think there are millions of VR Index headsets out there since its been in the top 5 for months?

Pretty sure Valve artificially props up the Index for exposure.

What do mean.

Does anything about “artificially props up” make any sense to you, is it some great conspiracy?

Are you saying it didn’t sell enough units to make it on the list?
You know the list is based on money and not units moved.
Or are you saying it came in at 3rd place but they put it at 2nd because ... reasons.

Bumpy wrote on Mar 22, 2021, 08:27:
I don't get how VR isn't raging; you would think there are millions of VR Index headsets out there since its been in the top 5 for months?

VR is holding its footing, but you won't see VR games in Steam's top 10 for a while....especially since decent GPUs are impossible to get right now. Sony recently announced PSVR2, which is HUGE news. Console manufacturers will usually scurry away from a tech that doesn't sell like crazy, so it must be doing well enough. I mean, they're making REAL VR controllers this time around, and I'm assuming the headset is higher resolution than the original.
How does that affect PCVR? It doesn't, not directly (although it's possible PSVR2 could work on a pc), but if hardware manufacturers show confidence in their products, developers will follow.