HorrorScope wrote on Dec 8, 2020, 19:48:
Where I work we have a "seizure guy" and he makes well into the 6 figures. He tests everything and if he seizures, we fix it by dumbing things down. We also have a dude that lost a dear loved one to gun violence. If they see something in game that upsets them when it comes to gun violence he lets us know and we dumb that down. We have another 20 or so people like this who have their own knack and area of quality assurance. Some say our products are dry, we like to think they are safe!

The problem with that is the seizure guy has a literal medical condition, but someone objecting to gun violence, even if it's for a reason that I sympathize with, is completely subjective. Art has to push limits, and that's going to make some people uncomfortable. And that's ok.

jdreyer wrote on Dec 9, 2020, 14:38:
"Your game made me have sex with my wife's sister".

"Your game made me have sex with my mother-in-law's daughter!"

Steele Johnson wrote on Dec 9, 2020, 11:51:
"Your game made me have sex with my wife's sister".

Um, which game is that precisely? Asking for a friend.

HorrorScope wrote on Dec 8, 2020, 19:48:

The Pyro wrote on Dec 8, 2020, 13:04:
Now I'm curious if other AAA developers check for things like this during the Quality Assurance process. I know I've seen warnings before, but I can't recall which games had them.

Where I work we have a "seizure guy" and he makes well into the 6 figures. He tests everything and if he seizures, we fix it by dumbing things down. We also have a dude that lost a dear loved one to gun violence. If they see something in game that upsets them when it comes to gun violence he lets us know and we dumb that down. We have another 20 or so people like this who have their own knack and area of quality assurance. Some say our products are dry, we like to think they are safe!

What kind of products does your company make? Your implication is that you do game development, if so what kind of games? (I assume you're being a bit coy because you don't wish to reveal which development house you work for).

Steele Johnson wrote on Dec 9, 2020, 11:51:
Give an inch, take a mile. If they start doing things like that, then eventually there will be no game left to play. "Your game gave me heart disease", "Your game made me an alcoholic", "Your game made me have sex with my wife's sister".

Warnings are good enough. If they're good enough for cigarettes, then they're good enough for games. Besides, this isn't anything new. How do gamers (or more importantly, parents) not know this by now? Even movies have this warning.

Didn't read article or thread lol

Give an inch, take a mile. If they start doing things like that, then eventually there will be no game left to play. "Your game gave me heart disease", "Your game made me an alcoholic", "Your game made me have sex with my wife's sister".

Warnings are good enough. If they're good enough for cigarettes, then they're good enough for games. Besides, this isn't anything new. How do gamers (or more importantly, parents) not know this by now? Even movies have this warning.

I just don't get why some people here will rush to defend literally anything a developer does in a game (that doesn't impact them.)

Is it on EGS? It's evil. Does it require an online connection? It's evil. Is there any downloadable content? It's evil horse armor.

Can it make someone sick, intentionally, without warning, in an unskippable part of the game that players are asked to complete? Well, that's just their creative right and how dare we complain!

It was a mistake. CDPR admits it is a mistake. It will be fixed with absolutely no real impact to non-epilepctic players. No one is saying that they're evil, people are saying they made a mistake. We all make mistakes.

It's just mind-blowing to see people outraged over someone with epilepsy asking a dev to please fix something designed to give them epilepsy.

JTW wrote on Dec 8, 2020, 19:59:
Some of the people in this discussion haven't actually read the articles. Here, I'll help:

“When ‘suiting up’ for a BD, especially with Judy, V will be given a headset that is meant to onset the instance. The headset fits over both eyes and features a rapid onslaught of white and red blinking LEDs, much like the actual device neurologists use in real life to trigger a seizure when they need to trigger one for diagnosis purposes. If not modeled off of the IRL design, it’s a very spot-on coincidence, and because of that this is one aspect that I would personally advise you to avoid altogether. When you notice the headset come into play, look away completely or close your eyes. This is a pattern of lights designed to trigger an epileptic episode and it very much did that in my own personal playthrough.”

The game apparently replicates a device specifically designed to cause seizures. That's a pretty big difference from just having flashing neon in the game.

And no, they should not remove flashing lights from the game (with the exception of redesigning the sieze-o-matic.) They should identify the risky bits and include an option to to turn them off.

Before I read the article, my kneejerk reaction was like many others. By coincidence, even a few days ago I thought about the epileptic warning and how anyone prone to it play games at their own risk...

...but then I read the article, and this is fucking terrible. I always expected CDPR to get into some heated shit because of CP2077, just because of the hype and the drama anyone can conjure up just to hurt the king of the hill... but this could possibly become their real heat. If anyone dies from this purposely seizure-inducing sequence in the game, lawsuits could downright destroy them. Fucking hell this could be bad. And fucking hell are they lucky this review embargo functioned as their last-minute quality control.

JTW wrote on Dec 8, 2020, 19:59:
Some of the people in this discussion haven't actually read the articles. Here, I'll help:

“When ‘suiting up’ for a BD, especially with Judy, V will be given a headset that is meant to onset the instance. The headset fits over both eyes and features a rapid onslaught of white and red blinking LEDs, much like the actual device neurologists use in real life to trigger a seizure when they need to trigger one for diagnosis purposes. If not modeled off of the IRL design, it’s a very spot-on coincidence, and because of that this is one aspect that I would personally advise you to avoid altogether. When you notice the headset come into play, look away completely or close your eyes. This is a pattern of lights designed to trigger an epileptic episode and it very much did that in my own personal playthrough.”

The game apparently replicates a device specifically designed to cause seizures. That's a pretty big difference from just having flashing neon in the game.

And no, they should not remove flashing lights from the game (with the exception of redesigning the sieze-o-matic.) They should identify the risky bits and include an option to to turn them off.

Wow, that's fucking terrible...I wonder what the hell led to that getting into the game? Surely it couldn't be on purpose? Or some designer saw a real life headset like that and didn't know what it was for? Ugh, fucking idiotic decision, hopefully nobody fucking dies from it.

Reading the comments on that RPS article, of course people are sending flashing light videos to the epileptic reviewer, because humanity is literally a pile of shit.

Cutter wrote on Dec 8, 2020, 19:23:
There are certain sounds that make people's tinnitus spike/react and yet I don't see any warnings in films/TV/games for that. A lot more people on this planet have tinnitus than epilepsy. A hell of a lot more. Yet, you don't see T sufferers whinging with shite like...

"These features are unsafe and should have been avoided to make the game more accessible."

If you have to consider every person and their disability in order to do something nothing is EVER going to get done. Life's tough buy a helmet.

Well there is just a tiny bit of a difference between tinnitus and epilepsy. One can be ignored, the other can make you swallow your tongue and die during a seizure. I'll let you guess which is which.

I did not read the article, and so missed that they intentionally put in a gameplay segment that is used in real life to trigger epilepsy. A label is not enough in that case. That part of the game should be altered.

JTW wrote on Dec 8, 2020, 19:59:
Some of the people in this discussion haven't actually read the articles. Here, I'll help:

“When ‘suiting up’ for a BD, especially with Judy, V will be given a headset that is meant to onset the instance. The headset fits over both eyes and features a rapid onslaught of white and red blinking LEDs, much like the actual device neurologists use in real life to trigger a seizure when they need to trigger one for diagnosis purposes. If not modeled off of the IRL design, it’s a very spot-on coincidence, and because of that this is one aspect that I would personally advise you to avoid altogether. When you notice the headset come into play, look away completely or close your eyes. This is a pattern of lights designed to trigger an epileptic episode and it very much did that in my own personal playthrough.”

The game apparently replicates a device specifically designed to cause seizures. That's a pretty big difference from just having flashing neon in the game.

And no, they should not remove flashing lights from the game (with the exception of redesigning the sieze-o-matic.) They should identify the risky bits and include an option to to turn them off.

Hrm, that is something that should've been caught in testing, and I agree, there should be an option along with the warning to turn that off.

Some of the people in this discussion haven't actually read the articles. Here, I'll help:

“When ‘suiting up’ for a BD, especially with Judy, V will be given a headset that is meant to onset the instance. The headset fits over both eyes and features a rapid onslaught of white and red blinking LEDs, much like the actual device neurologists use in real life to trigger a seizure when they need to trigger one for diagnosis purposes. If not modeled off of the IRL design, it’s a very spot-on coincidence, and because of that this is one aspect that I would personally advise you to avoid altogether. When you notice the headset come into play, look away completely or close your eyes. This is a pattern of lights designed to trigger an epileptic episode and it very much did that in my own personal playthrough.”

The game apparently replicates a device specifically designed to cause seizures. That's a pretty big difference from just having flashing neon in the game.

And no, they should not remove flashing lights from the game (with the exception of redesigning the sieze-o-matic.) They should identify the risky bits and include an option to to turn them off.

MoreLuckThanSkill wrote on Dec 8, 2020, 15:48:

jdreyer wrote on Dec 8, 2020, 14:14:
This has been a thing for 20 years or so. I thought everyone took this kind of thing into account.

Yeah, I'm a little surprised and saddened. CD Projekt RED isn't some random newcomer, I swear seizure warnings have been on tv/film/games for at least as long as jdreyer says above, it certainly feels like it was at least 20 years ago that the Simpsons was making jokes about Japanese Seizure Bot animes.

I'm honestly embarrassed for CDPR that they didn't either A) never have flashing light bullshit in their game, B) put warnings on splash screens at the start. People can die from seizures, and this is NOT a new thing that suddenly just became a problem. This is an extremely stupid and dangerous mistake in design and judgement.

*EDIT* Grammar.

They DID put a warning on it, just like any other game. This is just more outrage news about something that can happen with ANY game.

The Pyro wrote on Dec 8, 2020, 13:04:
Now I'm curious if other AAA developers check for things like this during the Quality Assurance process. I know I've seen warnings before, but I can't recall which games had them.

Where I work we have a "seizure guy" and he makes well into the 6 figures. He tests everything and if he seizures, we fix it by dumbing things down. We also have a dude that lost a dear loved one to gun violence. If they see something in game that upsets them when it comes to gun violence he lets us know and we dumb that down. We have another 20 or so people like this who have their own knack and area of quality assurance. Some say our products are dry, we like to think they are safe!

The game includes a specific (and obligatory) sequence of flashing lights that in the real world is used to test if people are susceptible to light-induced epileptic seizures. It isn't neon lights in the background or gunshot flashes, this may actually trigger seizures in people that have never had a reason to suspect they could be affected, because it's exactly the thing that's used to trigger seizures intentionally.

I get that being willfully ignorant and faux tough and laughing about warning labels on "hot" coffee is "cool", but it'd be nice if people didn't project their ignorance and lack of empathy so hard all the damn time.

There are certain sounds that make people's tinnitus spike/react and yet I don't see any warnings in films/TV/games for that. A lot more people on this planet have tinnitus than epilepsy. A hell of a lot more. Yet, you don't see T sufferers whinging with shite like...

"These features are unsafe and should have been avoided to make the game more accessible."

If you have to consider every person and their disability in order to do something nothing is EVER going to get done. Life's tough buy a helmet.

eRe4s3r wrote on Dec 8, 2020, 18:14:
From what I am reading they literally took the effect pattern of an actual epilepsy testing device and put it as loading sequence for their brain-dive gameplay element.... that sounds to me like either 100% malicious intent, or just super overworked artists who took quick shortcuts without thinking. Either way, that ain't something your average Quality Assurance ever catches...

And by the way, this makes it quite a bit different, even with warning to use the actual pattern of an epilepsy tester is downright horrific. That will trigger epilepsy in nearly EVERYONE susceptible to it and only doctors ever use that, in a controlled test environment.

I hope this is what all the triggered people here are missing. Apparently it is the red and white strobe lights that people with photosensitive epilepsy are very susceptible to. Is it really such a big deal if they just changed the colors to red and black and toned down the strobe effect? Nobody would have known the difference if this is what it was to begin with.

ColoradoHoudini wrote on Dec 8, 2020, 18:10:
There ya go, you align with professional victims/world-ignorant people, and now you see what us adults have seen for a decade.

1. Stay on fucking topic
2. Confusing tolerating racism and bigotry to this says a lot about you.

Your logic boils down to; I want to be a racist, sexist, bigoted pig but don't want any social repercussions by doing so.

Beamer wrote on Dec 8, 2020, 16:13:
I mean, things that contain Dairy legally need to tell you, so that you don't accidentally eat it and die.
Epilepsy is the same. Just warn people so they don't sit down to play a game and end up dying.

They only have a warning at the opening screen of the game and I believe the same verbiage on the physical box. Same warning that has persisted in movies and gaming for ~20 yrs and no one had a issue with it until now apparently.

ColoradoHoudini wrote on Dec 8, 2020, 18:10:
"I am a proud bleeding heart liberal. BLM, feminism, democratic socialism, fighting against racism & bigotry I am fine with. But this here.. I draw the fucking line."

There ya go, you align with professional victims/world-ignorant people, and now you see what us adults have seen for a decade.

We told you people that your "ra ra reeee rally" stuff would eventually come back to bite you on the ass. "I am offended by everything" "I need everything my way" "if you dont cater to me you're a ___'phobe" "only a ___'ist wouldnt cater to the ."I am selfish and I want you to answer to my demands no matter what"..

.03% of people in the world are affected by some form of epilepsy.. then you have to figure out of that group, if they have the type/condition that would respond to the strobe effects in the video game. Then you have to pair that down to the number of people who fit this.. and then want to play the game... and then ignore the warning signs/have no clue to this point of their gaming life this outcome of a seizure can happen.. so then we're down way below .03

"I want everything my way" -- working well huh?

Blue should have put up a warning on this post as it seems that you have now been triggered too.