wtf_man wrote on Dec 4, 2020, 20:22:

Simon Says wrote on Dec 4, 2020, 19:00:
Assange isn't even a US citizen and his work was purely journalistic in nature, a source gave him the info, he published it like he published all the other info packets that appeared on wikileaks, that's it. The burden of proof to the contrary is on the shoulders of the people accusing him of something else than journalism, not the other way around.

That the US can take an Australian journalist and do whatever they want with him would set a very stifling precedent for free press all over the world for any information related to US interests. That's authoritarianism on a worldwide imperialistic scale, completely egregious, ethically dubious and morally objectionable.

Leaking 75k documents of military Iraq logs and military Afghanistan logs WHILE troops are still in the area is NOT fucking journalism, no matter how he got the information. The information in those documents potentially put everyone over there at risk (where, how often, and how many U.S. personnel patrolled... for instance), including my daughter whom was deployed over there at the time. That's a fucked up thing to do to an "ALLY" . Fuck Assange. And he didn't just leak it... there is evidence that he was actively involved in helping Manning so he could get the classified information. Apparently you or nobody close in your family has served in the military and been deployed to a war zone. You'd be pissed too if someone leaked a bunch of information that shows patterns of activity and puts them at a higher risk.

Simon Says wrote on Dec 4, 2020, 19:00:
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Just turn it around to see how it feels. China trying to extradite and convict a US citizen for doing journalistic work? Would you defend China's actions? Of course your wouldn't.
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If China was an Ally... and the American "journalist" had leaked a bunch of classified military information that put their troops in danger.... hell yes, we should extradite.
But they aren't our ally so your, ridiculous hypothetical situation doesn't apply.
If it were the Brits that had their information leaked?... absolutely extradite the American "journalist".

There is shit out there that shouldn't be published. Running a tabloid "leaks" site is no excuse.... and again... not journalism.

Yo, Assange had a password protection on the data he has uploaded. The password was leaked by a Guardian journalist after he was asked not to leak it.

jdreyer wrote on Dec 4, 2020, 20:52:

wtf_man wrote on Dec 4, 2020, 20:22:

Leaking 75k documents of military Iraq logs and military Afghanistan logs WHILE troops are still in the area is NOT fucking journalism, no matter how he got the information.

Yup, it's not good for the troops. But it's journalism according to the Supreme Court of the US.

From your own link: Holding To exercise prior restraint, the Government must show sufficient evidence that the publication would cause a "grave and irreparable" danger.

The reference Pentagon Papers were a "study" conducted on Vietnam. The Supreme court deemed that these documents were not going to cause "grave and irreparable" danger.

This is not the same thing as logs of war-zone areas where troops on the ground still exist. Of course, that also is why Assange needs a trial... the Government has to prove "grave and irreparable" danger for a conviction.

Both Snowden and Assange will be pardoned. No doubt. Tear it all down.

MattyC wrote on Dec 4, 2020, 20:49:
The NSA story still doesn’t seem that well known by a great many Americans.

Meaningless. 73m+ US citizens thought it was a good idea to vote to re-elect Trump. A "great many Americans" are complete idiots. There is little doubt in my mind if you ran a poll a large portion of Americans would say Snowden was a traitor. I hope history remembers him well, even if it does, most Americans probably won't learn that history.

MattyC wrote on Dec 4, 2020, 20:49:
jdreyer- Without The Guardian I don’t know if the story would have been broken this time around. None of the big US outlets wanted to run it.

The NSA story still doesn’t seem that well known by a great many Americans.

Yeah, I used to read The Guardian daily, and even donated to them in the past. I appreciate their US coverage, which is actually very substantial for a UK publication.

wtf_man wrote on Dec 4, 2020, 20:22:

Leaking 75k documents of military Iraq logs and military Afghanistan logs WHILE troops are still in the area is NOT fucking journalism, no matter how he got the information.

Yup, it's not good for the troops. But it's journalism according to the Supreme Court of the US.

jdreyer- Without The Guardian I don’t know if the story would have been broken this time around. None of the big US outlets wanted to run it.

The NSA story still doesn’t seem that well known by a great many Americans.

The Flying Penguin wrote on Dec 4, 2020, 20:06:
My problem with Assange is he did a data dump, without any redactions. With no concern if this could compromise human lives, or operational security.

Compare that to Snowden and Glen Greenwald, who were extremely careful to vet what was released to the public, so that it did not jeopardize any people, or compromise any other facets of NSA surveillance that was not illegal.

Fair enough, it's not good, but does that break any laws?

wtf_man wrote on Dec 4, 2020, 14:11:
Disagree about Assange. Publishing classified military information is not journalism, nor was it done as whistle-blowing. Manning should have been shot. Assange deserves prison (which he practically has been in one forma or another since 2012).

Totally different situation than Snowden whistle-blowing unconstitutional domestic surveillance.

The NYT and WP published the classified Pentagon Papers. The court ruled that the first amendment applied and they couldn't be prosecuted.

NYT Co. v US

The Flying Penguin wrote on Dec 4, 2020, 14:02:
No opinion on Assange, but here's what I think about Snowden:

While I think what he did was necessary and heroic, that does not give him a pass. He still violated the oath he took, as a contractor for the NSA.

I feel that a trial would be better for everyone in the end, because a pardon doesn't address the original issue: that an employee (or contractor) of the NSA has no vehicle for reporting possible criminal behavior at that agency. There needs to be a proper and secure channel for whistleblowers established.

Snowden himself has said that what he'd really like is the guarantee of a fair trial in the United States.

My 2 cents anyway.

First, Snowden raised the wrongdoing internally before going rogue. Many times.

Also, there was a whistleblower path. It's just that if you took it, you got attacked, investigated, arrested, harassed, threatened, and had to spend tens of thousands of your own money to defend yourself. Just ask Bill Binney. Or Tom Blake. Snowden saw how these guys got treated.

Simon Says wrote on Dec 4, 2020, 13:43:
Assange acted like a journalist should every step of the way and his conviction would be a crippling blow to free journalism.

Snowden acted for the greater good of US citizens with everything to lose and nothing to personally gain.

Both are heroes in my book.

And he gave up quite a lot.

El Pit wrote on Dec 4, 2020, 13:18:
Dear Edward, dear Julian, this doesn't come for free. Send your checks to JDT and you might get the same pardon other people bought asked for.

I heard the going rate is somewhere around a $500K donation to his election fund.

Simon Says wrote on Dec 4, 2020, 19:00:
Assange isn't even a US citizen and his work was purely journalistic in nature, a source gave him the info, he published it like he published all the other info packets that appeared on wikileaks, that's it. The burden of proof to the contrary is on the shoulders of the people accusing him of something else than journalism, not the other way around.

That the US can take an Australian journalist and do whatever they want with him would set a very stifling precedent for free press all over the world for any information related to US interests. That's authoritarianism on a worldwide imperialistic scale, completely egregious, ethically dubious and morally objectionable.

Leaking 75k documents of military Iraq logs and military Afghanistan logs WHILE troops are still in the area is NOT fucking journalism, no matter how he got the information. The information in those documents potentially put everyone over there at risk (where, how often, and how many U.S. personnel patrolled... for instance), including my daughter whom was deployed over there at the time. That's a fucked up thing to do to an "ALLY" . Fuck Assange. And he didn't just leak it... there is evidence that he was actively involved in helping Manning so he could get the classified information. Apparently you or nobody close in your family has served in the military and been deployed to a war zone. You'd be pissed too if someone leaked a bunch of information that shows patterns of activity and puts them at a higher risk.

Simon Says wrote on Dec 4, 2020, 19:00:
************************
Just turn it around to see how it feels. China trying to extradite and convict a US citizen for doing journalistic work? Would you defend China's actions? Of course your wouldn't.
************************

If China was an Ally... and the American "journalist" had leaked a bunch of classified military information that put their troops in danger.... hell yes, we should extradite.
But they aren't our ally so your, ridiculous hypothetical situation doesn't apply.
If it were the Brits that had their information leaked?... absolutely extradite the American "journalist".

There is shit out there that shouldn't be published. Running a tabloid "leaks" site is no excuse.... and again... not journalism.

10 million per pardon
Easy and fast service.

My problem with Assange is he did a data dump, without any redactions. With no concern if this could compromise human lives, or operational security.

Compare that to Snowden and Glen Greenwald, who were extremely careful to vet what was released to the public, so that it did not jeopardize any people, or compromise any other facets of NSA surveillance that was not illegal.

wtf_man wrote on Dec 4, 2020, 14:11:
Disagree about Assange. Publishing classified military information is not journalism, nor was it done as whistle-blowing. Manning should have been shot. Assange deserves prison (which he practically has been in one forma or another since 2012).

Totally different situation than Snowden whistle-blowing unconstitutional domestic surveillance.

Assange isn't even a US citizen and his work was purely journalistic in nature, a source gave him the info, he published it like he published all the other info packets that appeared on wikileaks, that's it. The burden of proof to the contrary is on the shoulders of the people accusing him of something else than journalism, not the other way around.

That the US can take an Australian journalist and do whatever they want with him would set a very stifling precedent for free press all over the world for any information related to US interests. That's authoritarianism on a worldwide imperialistic scale, completely egregious, ethically dubious and morally objectionable.

************************
Just turn it around to see how it feels. China trying to extradite and convict a US citizen for doing journalistic work? Would you defend China's actions? Of course your wouldn't.
************************

The Flying Penguin wrote on Dec 4, 2020, 14:02:
No opinion on Assange, but here's what I think about Snowden:

While I think what he did was necessary and heroic, that does not give him a pass. He still violated the oath he took, as a contractor for the NSA.

He took an oath to uphold the constitution. What he found was deeply unconstitutional, he was thus duty bound, by oath, to oppose and expose those crimes against the constitution.

The way the US has been acting lately with its whistleblowers, treating them like foreign spies on US soil and attacking them with laws related to spying is simply disgusting.

Both cases are troubling, seems like pointing out US gov crimes is a crime. Only in dystopian authoritarian regimes do you usually see that practice.

Vaguely reminds me of the practices of the USSR pre-Gorbachev and that's saying something...

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Turn it around again, say Venezuela or Cuba, etc, tried to do something similar, the US would be the first pushing for regime change.
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The DOUBLE STANDARDS of the US Empire are sickening. HYPOCRISY is dripping from every pores of the US Gov apparatus like pus from a festering wound and it's patently obvious to most people living outside the US. The fact that US citizens can't see it for what it is and haven't arrived at the same consensus is a sign that you have SERIOUS INTERNAL ISSUES to resolve.

At this point there's no way either one of them would ever get a fair trial, so I'd be okay with pardoning them both. Particularly Snowden, since what the fuck are pardons for if not for people who broke the law for all the right reasons?

Disagree about Assange. Publishing classified military information is not journalism, nor was it done as whistle-blowing. Manning should have been shot. Assange deserves prison (which he practically has been in one forma or another since 2012).

Totally different situation than Snowden whistle-blowing unconstitutional domestic surveillance.

Here's my take.
Meltdown all civil war statues and recast them in the likeness of Edward Snowden.
They should both be pardoned as neither one would ever receive a fair trial in the United States or any other courtroom.

No opinion on Assange, but here's what I think about Snowden:

While I think what he did was necessary and heroic, that does not give him a pass. He still violated the oath he took, as a contractor for the NSA.

I feel that a trial would be better for everyone in the end, because a pardon doesn't address the original issue: that an employee (or contractor) of the NSA has no vehicle for reporting possible criminal behavior at that agency. There needs to be a proper and secure channel for whistleblowers established.

Snowden himself has said that what he'd really like is the guarantee of a fair trial in the United States.

My 2 cents anyway.