Mr. Tact wrote on Nov 4, 2020, 15:19:

Cutter wrote on Nov 4, 2020, 14:58:
Progressive left is very different from radical left. Bernie, Liz et al. are saying let's rethink, remodel, retrain those institutions. Let's cut funding from them and use that money for social services. It's a far better model that works. It's zero different from medicine. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of the cure. As well as restructuring society. Making sure the rich and big biz pay their fair share. The Biden's and Harris' of the world don't and won't do that. And that's why the Dems keep losing.

You are living in a dream world. You expect people who think Trump is a good thing to figure out the difference between the progressive left and the radical left -- and understand it is a good thing? Hell, outside a few fringe ideas I'm not sure I could articulate the difference between the two. It isn't that I don't agree with Bernie and Liz, it is that you have to convince the people voting for Trump, which I simply don't ever see happening. And if you are saying the people in the middle are voting for Trump instead of Biden because they want Bernie and Liz, then they are even worse than the people who believe Trump -- and they certainly deserve what they got the last four years and may yet get another four years of.

It's not about getting the other guy's vote. It's about getting YOUR vote, or rather getting the people who DONT vote, or vote indifferently, to vote for you.

Mr. Tact wrote on Nov 4, 2020, 18:15:
By definition not voting is literally sending no message.

Thank you.

By definition not voting is literally sending no message. And I don't know about Canada, but it is more 40% in the US not voting.

2000 50.3%
2004 55.7%
2008 57.1%
2012 54.9%
2016 59.2%

The message politicians take from that is you don't matter because you are not voting.

No, you have 30% of the population - of voting age - that isn't voting at all. That's still a huge chunk of people. They won't vote Dem or GOP because they refuse to vote for the lesser of two evils because it's still voting for evil. Same with me. Last election was the first one I ever sat out because I didn't like any of my options at the federal level. I was damned whether I did or didn't so fuck them I just won't participate in that case. People not voting is a very important message to both side of the divide.

Cutter wrote on Nov 4, 2020, 14:58:
Progressive left is very different from radical left. Bernie, Liz et al. are saying let's rethink, remodel, retrain those institutions. Let's cut funding from them and use that money for social services. It's a far better model that works. It's zero different from medicine. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of the cure. As well as restructuring society. Making sure the rich and big biz pay their fair share. The Biden's and Harris' of the world don't and won't do that. And that's why the Dems keep losing.

You are living in a dream world. You expect people who think Trump is a good thing to figure out the difference between the progressive left and the radical left -- and understand it is a good thing? Hell, outside a few fringe ideas I'm not sure I could articulate the difference between the two. It isn't that I don't agree with Bernie and Liz, it is that you have to convince the people voting for Trump, which I simply don't ever see happening. And if you are saying the people in the middle are voting for Trump instead of Biden because they want Bernie and Liz, then they are even worse than the people who believe Trump -- and they certainly deserve what they got the last four years and may yet get another four years of.

Mr. Tact wrote on Nov 4, 2020, 12:18:
This makes no sense to me. You think people who want to vote for Bernie turned their nose up at Biden/Harris and voted for Trump instead? What kind of logic is that? Certainly none of the center right have any interest in voting for Bernie.

Some of them did as a protest vote, you better believe. Most of them either didn't vote at all or voted a write-in as a protest vote.

And anyone who's center to center-right onward won't even give them the time of day so long as the liberal narrative of 'white people are intrinsically evil', 'get rid of cops/prisons/military', 'let looters run wild' is their agenda. The DNC/liberal elites are still not getting it. It just illustrates how out of touch they are with everyone else.

And this is helped by having a candidate further to the left how exactly?
Progressive left is very different from radical left. Bernie, Liz et al. are saying let's rethink, remodel, retrain those institutions. Let's cut funding from them and use that money for social services. It's a far better model that works. It's zero different from medicine. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of the cure. As well as restructuring society. Making sure the rich and big biz pay their fair share. The Biden's and Harris' of the world don't and won't do that. And that's why the Dems keep losing.

Mr. Tact wrote on Nov 4, 2020, 12:57:
The sci-fi answer of what we need is a truth machine. It would cause a big social upheaval (that's what the book is about in part) but it would definitely solve a lot of problems. Unfortunately, I suspect that will continue to be a matter for sci-fi for a very long time to come.

If an American invites it, it would be designed like a gun! Hitchhikers movie called it the Point of View gun.

The sci-fi answer of what we need is a truth machine. It would cause a big social upheaval (that's what the book is about in part) but it would definitely solve a lot of problems. Unfortunately, I suspect that will continue to be a matter for sci-fi for a very long time to come.

Mr. Tact wrote on Nov 4, 2020, 11:52:
I was going to say, "I don't think they are all deplorable." Then I looked up the definition which was in part:

1. causing or being a subject for grief or regret; lamentable:
2. causing or being a subject for censure, reproach, or disapproval;

I think that fits anyone willing to vote for Trump after what he has said and done over the last 3.8 years. I understand why people voted for him in 2016. And if you weren't interested and/or paying attention thinking he was the better choice was a possible decision. But now? You have to be willfully blind to not see him for what he is. Do I think half the country are "bad people" (whatever that might mean)? Of course not. But they for various reasons are allowing themselves to be blinded to the truth of the situation.

Unfortunately there is so much disinformation on the internet these days you have to actively hunt for the truth, especially if you're ensconced in that world. You really have to seek it out in a way that most people don't have time for. The sort of disinformation you used to only see wielded by state agencies engaged in social disruption is now everyday shit you see on Facebook, Twitter, Youtube and even so called "legit" news sources. Trump himself plays this game masterfully, taught by Bannon. Shovel shit everywhere and eventually everything stinks. Most people can't see the truth and that drives them to their bias. He's completely eroded faith in journalism and science for many people.

Anyways I don't know how to repair all of this damage. I know that anger, judgment and accusations aren't going to help though. Honestly what our country needs a truth and reconciliation commission followed by more serious regulation of social media and another pass on election regulation. Only if Biden can eke out a win which is still very much in question.

And this is helped by having a candidate further to the left how exactly?

I agree with you, going further to the left would've been a big mistake this time. I think Sanders would've been a more interesting opponent for Trump in 2016 but he definitely did not fit the bill now for many reasons.

Cutter wrote on Nov 4, 2020, 12:07:
Bernie and the progressives is what the blue collars and middle class want and need. But noooooo....let's force yet another self-aggrandizing rich corporatist lawyer on them because surely everyone will come out to vote for her in droves! Now in 2020 they've repeated the same fucking mistake. While Biden himself isn't a bad as Hillary, Harris is even worse. They lost a metric shit ton of votes by putting her on the ticket. Still Biden is just another mainstream corporatist and there are many on the left who are entirely done with voting for corporate America no matter how marginally less evil they are. And who's been making leaps and bounds for the Democrats this election? The progressives.

This makes no sense to me. You think people who want to vote for Bernie turned their nose up at Biden/Harris and voted for Trump instead? What kind of logic is that? Certainly none of the center right have any interest in voting for Bernie.

And anyone who's center to center-right onward won't even give them the time of day so long as the liberal narrative of 'white people are intrinsically evil', 'get rid of cops/prisons/military', 'let looters run wild' is their agenda. The DNC/liberal elites are still not getting it. It just illustrates how out of touch they are with everyone else.

And this is helped by having a candidate further to the left how exactly?

Mr. Tact wrote on Nov 4, 2020, 09:20:
I figured the landslide talk was nonsense, too good to possibly be true. But I was hoping for at least a decisive win for the Ds. Apparently that was too much to hope for. The fact the vote is this close after what Trump has said and done over the last 3.8 years is a sad statement about the US. Clearly a large portion of the country lives in their own separate reality. It almost, almost makes me embarrassed to be a US citizen.

Perhaps I'm wrong in thinking the human race will "wake up" before it destroys itself. Well, at least I won't be around to see it. I don't think they can destroy it in under 25 years, I should be gone....

Liberal democracy the world over is failing. And it's all because the liberal elites are completely out of touch with the common people. Yeah Trump is a conman but he knows what the common people are fearful of and angry about and he taps into that. All the good conmen and dictators do. You can't blame people for responding to that when the other side offers nothing. Worse still, says they're the problem. What exactly do Biden and Harris offer them? Nothing. They stand for the rich/big biz and everyone knows it. Meanwhile people like Bernie and Liz have been listening to the people from day one. And they don't just tell them what they want to hear, they actually want to deliver it. The Dems are going to keep losing so long as they only pander to the elites. That doesn't mean everyone not voting or not voting for them or voting GOP are all hardcore racists and bigots. That's just one more stereotype that keeps white working class people from wanting anything to do with them.

0ver 231,000 people have died and hundreds of thousands more will die because of this monster. Yet the ignorant deplorables turned out in droves to vote for him.
It’s turning out to be a very sad day for democracy.

Ozmodan wrote on Nov 4, 2020, 08:05:
Really kind of pathetic we had another election where there was essentially no choice. We needed a unifier and instead got two idiots that will continue the divisiveness into the next 4 years. I was particularly upset on Joe's pick for a VP, Harris is another Trump on the opposite end of the spectrum and I am not sure Joe can last 4 years. Needless to say, Trump needs to go and we need to hope that Joe does not get some of his nation killing plans approved. One thing we don't need is another 4 years of Trump.

Now the Dems stand to lose it all because once again the DNC and the liberal elites knew better than everyone else. They've picked up exactly 1 seat in the Senate so far but still look like they'll lose it, and they've lost 5 in the House so far. They'll probably keep that but they're losing ground. All us common folk told them in 2016 you need to go hard left. Bernie and the progressives is what the blue collars and middle class want and need. But noooooo....let's force yet another self-aggrandizing rich corporatist lawyer on them because surely everyone will come out to vote for her in droves! Now in 2020 they've repeated the same fucking mistake. While Biden himself isn't a bad as Hillary, Harris is even worse. They lost a metric shit ton of votes by putting her on the ticket. Still Biden is just another mainstream corporatist and there are many on the left who are entirely done with voting for corporate America no matter how marginally less evil they are. And who's been making leaps and bounds for the Democrats this election? The progressives.

And anyone who's center to center-right onward won't even give them the time of day so long as the liberal narrative of 'white people are intrinsically evil', 'get rid of cops/prisons/military', 'let looters run wild' is their agenda. The DNC/liberal elites are still not getting it. It just illustrates how out of touch they are with everyone else.

Verno wrote on Nov 4, 2020, 11:46:
After listening to Sam talk about this I immediately knew there was some truth to it because that's how I felt in 2016. "Vote for Clinton or you're awful" was the prevailing message, she even called his supporters deplorables. But to act like all of his followers are deplorables is part of the problem. No doubt many are but half of the country is not, I just refuse to believe that. Maybe they harbor one or two of Trump's negative aspects but the problem is that he gives them cover and the alternative only offers judgment. People know they can get caught up in his absurd cult of personality and that he won't judge them, that they will never be as bad as he is. In a perverted way you can almost see from that perspective how there is some comfort in that.

I was going to say, "I don't think they are all deplorable." Then I looked up the definition which was in part:

1. causing or being a subject for grief or regret; lamentable:
2. causing or being a subject for censure, reproach, or disapproval;

I think that fits anyone willing to vote for Trump after what he has said and done over the last 3.8 years. I understand why people voted for him in 2016. And if you weren't interested and/or paying attention thinking he was the better choice was a possible decision. But now? You have to be willfully blind to not see him for what he is. Do I think half the country are "bad people" (whatever that might mean)? Of course not. But they for various reasons are allowing themselves to be blinded to the truth of the situation.

This comment was edited on Nov 4, 2020, 12:22.

Mr. Tact wrote on Nov 4, 2020, 10:03:
If you can provide me with a practical plan on how to prevent half the population from living in their own alternate reality I'd love to hear it.

I feel like Sam Harris said it best in his latest epiphany about Trump. He's spent years railing against Trump and struggling to understand why people support him even when its clearly not in their best interest. Recently he said something like the below (which I am probably mangling, listen to his podcast for the actual text):

Trump is a channeling of every negative aspect of Americans. He's greedy, narcissistic, amoral, ignorant, dishonest and lacks any shred of empathy. He's all of the worst America has to offer, wrapped up in a single person. But people feel oddly comfortable with that because he enables their negativity and offers no judgment, everything is OK by him. The left offers an alternative in absolutism with too much judgment. People feel threatened by the left because they're told everything they've done is wrong, their ancestors were wrong, everything is a dire crisis and its their fault for not immediately fixing it.

After listening to Sam talk about this I immediately knew there was some truth to it because that's how I felt in 2016. "Vote for Clinton or you're awful" was the prevailing message, she even called his supporters deplorables. But to act like all of his followers are deplorables is part of the problem. No doubt many are but half of the country is not, I just refuse to believe that. Maybe they harbor one or two of Trump's negative aspects but the problem is that he gives them cover and the alternative only offers judgment. People know they can get caught up in his absurd cult of personality and that he won't judge them, that they will never be as bad as he is. In a perverted way you can almost see from that perspective how there is some comfort in that.

I have no idea how you recapture these voters. I know I previously disliked Trump but thought he was harmless until I saw the past four years unfold, that's what changed my mind. Unfortunately he follows Bannon's playbook of "spread garbage everywhere" to prevent the media from exposing how truly awful he is. He distorts everything, its literally an ongoing disinformation campaign. So people have to seek out alternative sources of news and there needs to be some sort of bridge for them to the left. Something that isn't just absolutism and judgment.

Mr. Tact wrote on Nov 4, 2020, 09:20:
I figured the landslide talk was nonsense, too good to possibly be true. But I was hoping for at least a decisive win for the Ds. Apparently that was too much to hope for. The fact the vote is this close after what Trump has said and done over the last 3.8 years is a sad statement about the US. Clearly a large portion of the country lives in their own separate reality. It almost, almost makes me embarrassed to be a US citizen.

Perhaps I'm wrong in thinking the human race will "wake up" before it destroys itself. Well, at least I won't be around to see it. I don't think they can destroy it in under 25 years, I should be gone....

I have given up having any hope. The state I live in just sent a fucking football coach to the US Senate. Shaking my head in disbelief.

Tom wrote on Nov 4, 2020, 10:00:

Mr. Tact wrote on Nov 4, 2020, 09:20:
Well, at least I won't be around to see it. I don't think they can destroy it in under 25 years, I should be gone....

This is the line of thinking driving the behavior you lament.

If you can provide me with a practical plan on how to prevent half the population from living in their own alternate reality I'd love to hear it.

Mr. Tact wrote on Nov 4, 2020, 09:20:
Well, at least I won't be around to see it. I don't think they can destroy it in under 25 years, I should be gone....

This is the line of thinking driving the behavior you lament.

I figured the landslide talk was nonsense, too good to possibly be true. But I was hoping for at least a decisive win for the Ds. Apparently that was too much to hope for. The fact the vote is this close after what Trump has said and done over the last 3.8 years is a sad statement about the US. Clearly a large portion of the country lives in their own separate reality. It almost, almost makes me embarrassed to be a US citizen.

Perhaps I'm wrong in thinking the human race will "wake up" before it destroys itself. Well, at least I won't be around to see it. I don't think they can destroy it in under 25 years, I should be gone....

Ozmodan wrote on Nov 4, 2020, 08:05:
Really kind of pathetic we had another election where there was essentially no choice. We needed a unifier and instead got two idiots that will continue the divisiveness into the next 4 years. I was particularly upset on Joe's pick for a VP, Harris is another Trump on the opposite end of the spectrum and I am not sure Joe can last 4 years. Needless to say, Trump needs to go and we need to hope that Joe does not get some of his nation killing plans approved. One thing we don't need is another 4 years of Trump.

Is Harris another Trump, or is that a talking point that doesn't have any substance?