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21.
 
Re: Evening Metaverse
Oct 23, 2020, 17:13
21.
Re: Evening Metaverse Oct 23, 2020, 17:13
Oct 23, 2020, 17:13
 
Beamer wrote on Oct 23, 2020, 12:01:
Agent.X7 wrote on Oct 23, 2020, 11:58:
Dash wrote on Oct 23, 2020, 09:17:
Oh. Just had a thought to add.


The streamers are paying the publishers and dev in 'exposure'. Because isn't that something some try to fob off on artists?

Totally not the same.
When people say they are going to pay an artist in exposure, they are trying to get the artists to give them something for free or at a deeply discounted price.

Streamers have already purchased the game. The publisher already has their money, and NOW they are getting free advertisement as well. That this douche thinks the STREAMER should be paying for.

I honestly think music should work this way as well. Instead of beating down any creator who dares use their music, artists should be glad for the free advertisement. Jesus, look at Dreams by Fleetwood Mac. All of the sudden they are raking in cash again from a 40 year old song because some random on a longboard used it in his video and it went viral.

That's not really how it works, though.
Would whatever 40 year old you're referring to have gone viral without the music? Probably not.

With streamers, would they have any value without the games? No, none. So I do understand why the people that made the games get frustrated at some person making significantly more by playing the game than he or she did by making it. Remove the streamer, and the game still exists and makes some money. Remove the game, and the streamer is working at Subway.

This really isn't that accurate. There are tons of people watching streamers who don't give a damn about the game.
Maybe because they're were initially drawn to the streamer by a different game and now the streamer isn't playing that anymore... or just that they like the streamer's personality or whatever. There are also streamers who talk to the camera/chat for hours without even playing a game.
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20.
 
Re: Evening Metaverse
Oct 23, 2020, 12:13
20.
Re: Evening Metaverse Oct 23, 2020, 12:13
Oct 23, 2020, 12:13
 
Dash wrote on Oct 23, 2020, 03:37:
He might be aware of Stadia not doing as well as he'd hoped, and threw out an... idea... in the hopes EA was listening to try to secure a job again?

This schmuck doesn't really get the idea of free advertising, does he? This is the same kind of mentality that corporate douchebags in suits at publishers have.
There's at least like 15 games I bought, BECAUSE I watched a streamer or tuber I liked and they presented the game in such a way that was better than any paid commercial or 'extreme ad!', and I sure as hell don't go to a majority of the 'gaming journalist' websites these days. I would have never touched ARMA3 without SovietWomble. I got Among Us after watching a number of players. I may never play it, because pugging sucks and I don't have enough meatspace or digital friends even remotely interested in most PC/Console games. But I still got it, on the 'chance'.

You made the game, people bought it. You're already nickle-and-dimeing us with micro-transactions. They're playing your game, spending their time that they could be doing playing something else. If anything, it feels like the next logical step like MST3K was. How many movies regained a degree of popularity because of them? Should musicians pay the artisans' created the instrument and gear every time they use their brand? Popularity drives sales, a bit better than adverts, I feel. Would Zildjian instruments have the same popularity they do, if they weren't exclusively used by certain bands? Would Fender or Gibson, if they weren't the preferred tool by a huge chunk of guitar players?

At some point, when you create something, it's going to be utilized by someone else in a way that makes them money. If you start telling them 'Well. You better give me a cut of that, or we'll stop you from using it', I might be more inclined to go play something else.

People shouldn't stream anything he worked on. How's that sound? /s
[I'm not a fan of cancel culture. The product should rise or fall on its own merits, rather than some stupid opinion or belief the creators have. Play whatever by whoever, if you want.]
concur
"not everyone, can be, not an asshole"
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19.
 
Re: Evening Metaverse
Oct 23, 2020, 12:01
Beamer
 
19.
Re: Evening Metaverse Oct 23, 2020, 12:01
Oct 23, 2020, 12:01
 Beamer
 
Agent.X7 wrote on Oct 23, 2020, 11:58:
Dash wrote on Oct 23, 2020, 09:17:
Oh. Just had a thought to add.


The streamers are paying the publishers and dev in 'exposure'. Because isn't that something some try to fob off on artists?

Totally not the same.
When people say they are going to pay an artist in exposure, they are trying to get the artists to give them something for free or at a deeply discounted price.

Streamers have already purchased the game. The publisher already has their money, and NOW they are getting free advertisement as well. That this douche thinks the STREAMER should be paying for.

I honestly think music should work this way as well. Instead of beating down any creator who dares use their music, artists should be glad for the free advertisement. Jesus, look at Dreams by Fleetwood Mac. All of the sudden they are raking in cash again from a 40 year old song because some random on a longboard used it in his video and it went viral.

That's not really how it works, though.
Would whatever 40 year old you're referring to have gone viral without the music? Probably not.

With streamers, would they have any value without the games? No, none. So I do understand why the people that made the games get frustrated at some person making significantly more by playing the game than he or she did by making it. Remove the streamer, and the game still exists and makes some money. Remove the game, and the streamer is working at Subway.
18.
 
Re: Evening Metaverse
Oct 23, 2020, 11:58
18.
Re: Evening Metaverse Oct 23, 2020, 11:58
Oct 23, 2020, 11:58
 
Dash wrote on Oct 23, 2020, 09:17:
Oh. Just had a thought to add.


The streamers are paying the publishers and dev in 'exposure'. Because isn't that something some try to fob off on artists?

Totally not the same.
When people say they are going to pay an artist in exposure, they are trying to get the artists to give them something for free or at a deeply discounted price.

Streamers have already purchased the game. The publisher already has their money, and NOW they are getting free advertisement as well. That this douche thinks the STREAMER should be paying for.

I honestly think music should work this way as well. Instead of beating down any creator who dares use their music, artists should be glad for the free advertisement. Jesus, look at Dreams by Fleetwood Mac. All of the sudden they are raking in cash again from a 40 year old song because some random on a longboard used it in his video and it went viral.
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17.
 
Re: Evening Metaverse
Oct 23, 2020, 09:17
17.
Re: Evening Metaverse Oct 23, 2020, 09:17
Oct 23, 2020, 09:17
 
Oh. Just had a thought to add.


The streamers are paying the publishers and dev in 'exposure'. Because isn't that something some try to fob off on artists?
Avatar 22954
16.
 
Re: Evening Metaverse
Oct 23, 2020, 09:03
16.
Re: Evening Metaverse Oct 23, 2020, 09:03
Oct 23, 2020, 09:03
 
Sepharo wrote on Oct 22, 2020, 23:41:
Mr. Tact wrote on Oct 22, 2020, 23:25:
Avus wrote on Oct 22, 2020, 20:55:
Streamer need to buy the game and then pay the dev every time when they stream the game.
Let's put this idea in the racing world....
A racer need to buy a Ferrari and then need to pay Ferrari every time when he/she RACE the car.
Logic...
Does that happen? I mean street racing I guess. But I would have thought anyone doing professional racing isn't driving a car without the manufacturer being a sponsor...

What's the point you're trying to make here?
You're saying the manufacturer would pay the racer... yes.. not the racer paying the manufacturer per use of car.
Mistake by me. Got it reversed in my head somehow. Was thinking it was a bad analogy. Derp.
“Extinction is the rule. Survival is the exception.” -- Carl Sagan
15.
 
Re: Evening Metaverse
Oct 23, 2020, 07:21
15.
Re: Evening Metaverse Oct 23, 2020, 07:21
Oct 23, 2020, 07:21
 
Jonjonz wrote on Oct 23, 2020, 06:39:
Slick wrote on Oct 23, 2020, 01:34:
The music industry would like to have a word with you...

Not saying it's the right way to go, but game streamers have it SO GOOD! They can literally stream an entire single player game, and people can just watch it instead of buying the game themselves.

You can't even hum the first 4 bars of a popular song on a youtube video without it getting demonetized LAWL.

Games are not like music. The RIAA is strict about using any of their copyrighted music in a video because anyone who views it, can record the audio, and in effect have their own pirate version of the tune. You can watch a stream of a game, but recording it does not give you a copy of the game you can play. Watching a video of some one drive a car, is not the same as acquiring an illegal knockoff of the car which you can drive.

Not all games are the same, either, though. Like someone said below, a multiplayer game being streamed is different from a one-and-done story-based singleplayer game. Playing a singleplayer horror adventure game might be different from watching it, but if I've watched it then the value proposition of the purchase is very low. I could believe that's a genre that suffers more from lost sales than it's gaining from advertising. And it seems reasonable that streaming could be a factor when developers decide to focus more heavily on multiplayer or shoehorn it into their games, or make everything into a Roguelike.
14.
 
Re: Evening Metaverse
Oct 23, 2020, 06:43
14.
Re: Evening Metaverse Oct 23, 2020, 06:43
Oct 23, 2020, 06:43
 
Game companies still give free copies to popular streamers and some offer really popular streamers millions of dollars to stream their games exclusively.
"Meet the new Boss, same as the old Boss." - The Who.
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13.
 
Re: Evening Metaverse
Oct 23, 2020, 06:39
13.
Re: Evening Metaverse Oct 23, 2020, 06:39
Oct 23, 2020, 06:39
 
Slick wrote on Oct 23, 2020, 01:34:
The music industry would like to have a word with you...

Not saying it's the right way to go, but game streamers have it SO GOOD! They can literally stream an entire single player game, and people can just watch it instead of buying the game themselves.

You can't even hum the first 4 bars of a popular song on a youtube video without it getting demonetized LAWL.

Games are not like music. The RIAA is strict about using any of their copyrighted music in a video because anyone who views it, can record the audio, and in effect have their own pirate version of the tune. You can watch a stream of a game, but recording it does not give you a copy of the game you can play. Watching a video of some one drive a car, is not the same as acquiring an illegal knockoff of the car which you can drive.
"Meet the new Boss, same as the old Boss." - The Who.
Avatar 57379
12.
 
Re: Evening Metaverse
Oct 23, 2020, 04:48
12.
Re: Evening Metaverse Oct 23, 2020, 04:48
Oct 23, 2020, 04:48
 
Dash wrote on Oct 23, 2020, 03:37:
He might be aware of Stadia not doing as well as he'd hoped, and threw out an... idea... in the hopes EA was listening to try to secure a job again?

This schmuck doesn't really get the idea of free advertising, does he? This is the same kind of mentality that corporate douchebags in suits at publishers have.
There's at least like 15 games I bought, BECAUSE I watched a streamer or tuber I liked and they presented the game in such a way that was better than any paid commercial or 'extreme ad!', and I sure as hell don't go to a majority of the 'gaming journalist' websites these days. I would have never touched ARMA3 without SovietWomble. I got Among Us after watching a number of players. I may never play it, because pugging sucks and I don't have enough meatspace or digital friends even remotely interested in most PC/Console games. But I still got it, on the 'chance'.

You made the game, people bought it. You're already nickle-and-dimeing us with micro-transactions. They're playing your game, spending their time that they could be doing playing something else. If anything, it feels like the next logical step like MST3K was. How many movies regained a degree of popularity because of them? Should musicians pay the artisans' created the instrument and gear every time they use their brand? Popularity drives sales, a bit better than adverts, I feel. Would Zildjian instruments have the same popularity they do, if they weren't exclusively used by certain bands? Would Fender or Gibson, if they weren't the preferred tool by a huge chunk of guitar players?

At some point, when you create something, it's going to be utilized by someone else in a way that makes them money. If you start telling them 'Well. You better give me a cut of that, or we'll stop you from using it', I might be more inclined to go play something else.

People shouldn't stream anything he worked on. How's that sound? /s
[I'm not a fan of cancel culture. The product should rise or fall on its own merits, rather than some stupid opinion or belief the creators have. Play whatever by whoever, if you want.]

Agreed 100%
Avatar 58327
11.
 
Re: Evening Metaverse
Oct 23, 2020, 03:37
11.
Re: Evening Metaverse Oct 23, 2020, 03:37
Oct 23, 2020, 03:37
 
He might be aware of Stadia not doing as well as he'd hoped, and threw out an... idea... in the hopes EA was listening to try to secure a job again?

This schmuck doesn't really get the idea of free advertising, does he? This is the same kind of mentality that corporate douchebags in suits at publishers have.
There's at least like 15 games I bought, BECAUSE I watched a streamer or tuber I liked and they presented the game in such a way that was better than any paid commercial or 'extreme ad!', and I sure as hell don't go to a majority of the 'gaming journalist' websites these days. I would have never touched ARMA3 without SovietWomble. I got Among Us after watching a number of players. I may never play it, because pugging sucks and I don't have enough meatspace or digital friends even remotely interested in most PC/Console games. But I still got it, on the 'chance'.

You made the game, people bought it. You're already nickle-and-dimeing us with micro-transactions. They're playing your game, spending their time that they could be doing playing something else. If anything, it feels like the next logical step like MST3K was. How many movies regained a degree of popularity because of them? Should musicians pay the artisans' created the instrument and gear every time they use their brand? Popularity drives sales, a bit better than adverts, I feel. Would Zildjian instruments have the same popularity they do, if they weren't exclusively used by certain bands? Would Fender or Gibson, if they weren't the preferred tool by a huge chunk of guitar players?

At some point, when you create something, it's going to be utilized by someone else in a way that makes them money. If you start telling them 'Well. You better give me a cut of that, or we'll stop you from using it', I might be more inclined to go play something else.

People shouldn't stream anything he worked on. How's that sound? /s
[I'm not a fan of cancel culture. The product should rise or fall on its own merits, rather than some stupid opinion or belief the creators have. Play whatever by whoever, if you want.]

This comment was edited on Oct 23, 2020, 03:50.
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10.
 
Re: Evening Metaverse
Oct 23, 2020, 02:28
10.
Re: Evening Metaverse Oct 23, 2020, 02:28
Oct 23, 2020, 02:28
 
Slick wrote on Oct 23, 2020, 01:34:
The music industry would like to have a word with you...

Not saying it's the right way to go, but game streamers have it SO GOOD! They can literally stream an entire single player game, and people can just watch it instead of buying the game themselves.

You can't even hum the first 4 bars of a popular song on a youtube video without it getting demonetized LAWL.

Yes because playing the game and watching someone else play it equates to the same thing. As listening to music, and.....listening to music. How someone can consider this (monetizing Streams in favor of game publishers) and call themselves a gamer, or a decent human being, is beyond me.

This comment was edited on Oct 23, 2020, 03:03.
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9.
 
Re: Evening Metaverse
Oct 23, 2020, 01:34
Slick
 
9.
Re: Evening Metaverse Oct 23, 2020, 01:34
Oct 23, 2020, 01:34
 Slick
 
The music industry would like to have a word with you...

Not saying it's the right way to go, but game streamers have it SO GOOD! They can literally stream an entire single player game, and people can just watch it instead of buying the game themselves.

You can't even hum the first 4 bars of a popular song on a youtube video without it getting demonetized LAWL.
For your transgressions you shall be labeled a shill, called an idiot and anytime you mention facts or disagree with a tribe member you will henceforth be known as a troll. The best you can hope for is that the labels won't haunt your offspring. -RedEye9
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8.
 
Re: Evening Metaverse
Oct 22, 2020, 23:41
8.
Re: Evening Metaverse Oct 22, 2020, 23:41
Oct 22, 2020, 23:41
 
Mr. Tact wrote on Oct 22, 2020, 23:25:
Avus wrote on Oct 22, 2020, 20:55:
Streamer need to buy the game and then pay the dev every time when they stream the game.
Let's put this idea in the racing world....
A racer need to buy a Ferrari and then need to pay Ferrari every time when he/she RACE the car.
Logic...
Does that happen? I mean street racing I guess. But I would have thought anyone doing professional racing isn't driving a car without the manufacturer being a sponsor...

What's the point you're trying to make here?
You're saying the manufacturer would pay the racer... yes.. not the racer paying the manufacturer per use of car.
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7.
 
Re: Evening Metaverse
Oct 22, 2020, 23:25
7.
Re: Evening Metaverse Oct 22, 2020, 23:25
Oct 22, 2020, 23:25
 
Avus wrote on Oct 22, 2020, 20:55:
Streamer need to buy the game and then pay the dev every time when they stream the game.
Let's put this idea in the racing world....
A racer need to buy a Ferrari and then need to pay Ferrari every time when he/she RACE the car.
Logic...
Does that happen? I mean street racing I guess. But I would have thought anyone doing professional racing isn't driving a car without the manufacturer being a sponsor...
“Extinction is the rule. Survival is the exception.” -- Carl Sagan
6.
 
Re: Evening Metaverse
Oct 22, 2020, 23:03
Cutter
 
6.
Re: Evening Metaverse Oct 22, 2020, 23:03
Oct 22, 2020, 23:03
 Cutter
 
“Terrible take,” he wrote. “The amount of exposure streamers and YouTubers give to games just by playing them is worth major $$$ by itself. Some games ONLY market through influencers now because it’s so strong and works.

That is patently false. Influencing is dying because now with a decade of economics behind it it's been demonstrated beyond any doubt that the ROI for companies engaging in this as a form of advertising see little to no returns on those sorts of gambles. Maybe it works better for those at the very top of the food chain but it's a joke for everyone else. Still, if corps are actually going to charge people to stream a game people will just say 'Fuck it.' and won't do it. And that will cost them sales.

Then again, streaming games can cost them sales anyway. I'll watch a bit of a Let's Play or a stream - not much - to see if I want to risk a purchase on a certain game. And it can certainly result in a sale or no sale. If no one is streaming than it's much more likely to be a no sale. So I'd say it's more in the corps interest to allow things to keep moving along as they are currently.
"Hot air hangs like a dead man, from a white oak tree. People sitting on porches, thinking how things used to be. It's a dark night...dark night."
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5.
 
Re: Evening Metaverse
Oct 22, 2020, 23:00
5.
Re: Evening Metaverse Oct 22, 2020, 23:00
Oct 22, 2020, 23:00
 
Joke is on him. Streamers don't use Stadia. NOBODY uses Stadia.
4.
 
Re: Evening Metaverse
Oct 22, 2020, 22:53
4.
Re: Evening Metaverse Oct 22, 2020, 22:53
Oct 22, 2020, 22:53
 
Work4Gil wrote on Oct 22, 2020, 20:49:
This discussion is definitely happening in hushed tones and in closed meetings at all the major companies. So this person is probably a bit of a loud mouth who hears this often but no one wants to say it publicly and he lashed out with his comment in the wrong venue

I remember years ago with the popularity of Starcraft 2 streaming, Blizzard licensed tournaments and the rules seemed kind of fuzzy as to what constituted a tournament requiring a license. Questions like, "Does somebody hosting a bunch of players playing for a $100 prize need to be licensed?"

Then the craziness of the growth of League of Legends audiences really got the suits looking for revenue streams.

I figure that most are waiting for a tipping point where they feel the free advertising aspect is outweighed by potential licensing revenue and their ability to enforce it (maybe by audience size or views).

The fact that really sticks in their craw is that some of these streamers are pulling in significant money using their product and these companies operate by licensing products and services themselves. Both purchasing them and selling them in order to operate their businesses. So they probably believe the same rules apply to these streamers.

With the number of streamers growing like it is, I will be ordering a big bucket of popcorn for this one.

Yeah, I feel it doesn't really matter for a competitive and/or repetitive game designed to be played indefinitely, but there are plenty of people out there who are absorbing the story and visuals of big-budget single-player campaigns for free. And they'll openly admit that it gives them most of the satisfaction without actually buying and playing it themselves. That no doubt equates to some number of potential sales that may not have been lost if it weren't so easy to search the title of any game you can think of and find full-length YouTube clips, or have your pick of umpteen streamers playing it 24/7 on launch day. Publishers are absolutely trying to figure out how to quantify all of that and how it impacts their bottom line, and there will be a reckoning if they decide it's doing more harm than good. Or just give them more reason to stop making quality one-and-done games....
3.
 
Re: Evening Metaverse
Oct 22, 2020, 20:55
3.
Re: Evening Metaverse Oct 22, 2020, 20:55
Oct 22, 2020, 20:55
 
Streamer need to buy the game and then pay the dev every time when they stream the game.
Let's put this idea in the racing world....
A racer need to buy a Ferrari and then need to pay Ferrari every time when he/she RACE the car.
Logic...
“I am not a Mac user unless under duress.” - John Carmack
Avatar 58298
2.
 
Re: Evening Metaverse
Oct 22, 2020, 20:49
2.
Re: Evening Metaverse Oct 22, 2020, 20:49
Oct 22, 2020, 20:49
 
This discussion is definitely happening in hushed tones and in closed meetings at all the major companies. So this person is probably a bit of a loud mouth who hears this often but no one wants to say it publicly and he lashed out with his comment in the wrong venue

I remember years ago with the popularity of Starcraft 2 streaming, Blizzard licensed tournaments and the rules seemed kind of fuzzy as to what constituted a tournament requiring a license. Questions like, "Does somebody hosting a bunch of players playing for a $100 prize need to be licensed?"

Then the craziness of the growth of League of Legends audiences really got the suits looking for revenue streams.

I figure that most are waiting for a tipping point where they feel the free advertising aspect is outweighed by potential licensing revenue and their ability to enforce it (maybe by audience size or views).

The fact that really sticks in their craw is that some of these streamers are pulling in significant money using their product and these companies operate by licensing products and services themselves. Both purchasing them and selling them in order to operate their businesses. So they probably believe the same rules apply to these streamers.

With the number of streamers growing like it is, I will be ordering a big bucket of popcorn for this one.
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