John Carmack on Microsoft's id Software Ownership

John Carmack tweets a response to the news that Microsoft is buying ZeniMax. The deal includes id Software. Since the former id technical director left the company when it was decided he couldn't work on their games while developing VR for Oculus, he now expresses hope that this will help him reconnect with titles he helped originate, like Doom and Quake:
Great! I think Microsoft has been a good parent company for gaming IPs, and they don’t have a grudge against me, so maybe I will be able to re engage with some of my old titles.
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19.
 
Re: John Carmack on Microsoft's id Software Ownership
Sep 22, 2020, 12:00
19.
Re: John Carmack on Microsoft's id Software Ownership Sep 22, 2020, 12:00
Sep 22, 2020, 12:00
 
RedEye9 wrote on Sep 22, 2020, 11:46:
Steele Johnson wrote on Sep 22, 2020, 11:24:
RedEye9 wrote on Sep 22, 2020, 06:17:
Carmack, along with other Oculus figures, were found not to have stolen trade secrets from the publisher.

Hmm, I thought the court awarded $500 million to ZeniMax. Either way, as a software developer myself, I always thought it was unfair for my current employer to own my thoughts if they're written down (i.e. code, blueprint, etc). If I translate my thoughts into code for a company, then I should be free to use those same thoughts for any other personal financial gain. Kind of a grey area, I know. And you know it only happens to billion dollar companies. My current employer wouldn't even know or care if I took my algorithms elsewhere after they lay me off lol
Suits are multifaceted and you’re correct about the 4billion $500m payout.
From the wiki:
“ The jury trial completed on February 2, 2017, with the jury finding that Luckey had violated the NDA he had with ZeniMax, and awarding $500 million to ZeniMax. However, the jury found that Oculus, Facebook, Luckey, Iribe, and Carmack did not misappropriate or steal trade secrets, though ZeniMax continued to publicly assert otherwise. Oculus will have to pay $200 million for breaking the non-disclosure agreement, and additional $50 million for copyright infringement; for false designation of origin charges, Oculus and Luckey will have to pay $50 million each, while Iribe will be responsible for $150 million.”

In other words, a team of lawyers against another team of lawyers. i.e. $$$
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18.
 
Re: John Carmack on Microsoft's id Software Ownership
Sep 22, 2020, 11:46
18.
Re: John Carmack on Microsoft's id Software Ownership Sep 22, 2020, 11:46
Sep 22, 2020, 11:46
 
Steele Johnson wrote on Sep 22, 2020, 11:24:
RedEye9 wrote on Sep 22, 2020, 06:17:
Carmack, along with other Oculus figures, were found not to have stolen trade secrets from the publisher.

Hmm, I thought the court awarded $500 million to ZeniMax. Either way, as a software developer myself, I always thought it was unfair for my current employer to own my thoughts if they're written down (i.e. code, blueprint, etc). If I translate my thoughts into code for a company, then I should be free to use those same thoughts for any other personal financial gain. Kind of a grey area, I know. And you know it only happens to billion dollar companies. My current employer wouldn't even know or care if I took my algorithms elsewhere after they lay me off lol
Suits are multifaceted and you’re correct about the 4billion $500m payout.
From the wiki:
“ The jury trial completed on February 2, 2017, with the jury finding that Luckey had violated the NDA he had with ZeniMax, and awarding $500 million to ZeniMax. However, the jury found that Oculus, Facebook, Luckey, Iribe, and Carmack did not misappropriate or steal trade secrets, though ZeniMax continued to publicly assert otherwise. Oculus will have to pay $200 million for breaking the non-disclosure agreement, and additional $50 million for copyright infringement; for false designation of origin charges, Oculus and Luckey will have to pay $50 million each, while Iribe will be responsible for $150 million.”
Avatar 58135
17.
 
Re: John Carmack on Microsoft's id Software Ownership
Sep 22, 2020, 11:24
17.
Re: John Carmack on Microsoft's id Software Ownership Sep 22, 2020, 11:24
Sep 22, 2020, 11:24
 
RedEye9 wrote on Sep 22, 2020, 06:17:
Carmack, along with other Oculus figures, were found not to have stolen trade secrets from the publisher.

Hmm, I thought the court awarded $500 million to ZeniMax. Either way, as a software developer myself, I always thought it was unfair for my current employer to own my thoughts if they're written down (i.e. code, blueprint, etc). If I translate my thoughts into code for a company, then I should be free to use those same thoughts for any other personal financial gain. Kind of a grey area, I know. And you know it only happens to billion dollar companies. My current employer wouldn't even know or care if I took my algorithms elsewhere after they lay me off lol
Avatar 12787
16.
 
Re: John Carmack on Microsoft's id Software Ownership
Sep 22, 2020, 09:59
16.
Re: John Carmack on Microsoft's id Software Ownership Sep 22, 2020, 09:59
Sep 22, 2020, 09:59
 
Probably the only real good thing about this is that Microsoft is a little less sue happy for gaming Intellectual Properties.
Zenimax would sue a fan if they looked at one of their games cross-eyed.

Of course now that Lynda Carter's Lawyer husband has a good chunk of that 7.5 Billion in his pocket... he can retire.
Get your games from GOG DAMMIT!
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15.
 
Re: John Carmack on Microsoft's id Software Ownership
Sep 22, 2020, 06:28
15.
Re: John Carmack on Microsoft's id Software Ownership Sep 22, 2020, 06:28
Sep 22, 2020, 06:28
 
Prima Donna's gotta prima donna.
"Meet the new Boss, same as the old Boss." - The Who.
Avatar 57379
14.
 
Re: John Carmack on Microsoft's id Software Ownership
Sep 22, 2020, 06:17
14.
Re: John Carmack on Microsoft's id Software Ownership Sep 22, 2020, 06:17
Sep 22, 2020, 06:17
 
Carmack, along with other Oculus figures, were found not to have stolen trade secrets from the publisher.
Avatar 58135
13.
 
Re: John Carmack on Microsoft's id Software Ownership
Sep 22, 2020, 06:06
13.
Re: John Carmack on Microsoft's id Software Ownership Sep 22, 2020, 06:06
Sep 22, 2020, 06:06
 
Zenimax lost? Really? Wow, my memory is definitely not what it was. Or maybe Im just so cynical that I remember the worst possible scenario, even when it wasn't what exactly happened.
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12.
 
Re: John Carmack on Microsoft's id Software Ownership
Sep 22, 2020, 05:45
12.
Re: John Carmack on Microsoft's id Software Ownership Sep 22, 2020, 05:45
Sep 22, 2020, 05:45
 
osage no onna wrote on Sep 22, 2020, 05:19:
VaranDragon wrote on Sep 22, 2020, 04:09:
I wonder what a jury of programmers would have thought of it?

If they've ever actually read any of the contracts they've signed instead of just assuming they can do whatever with no repercussions because their skills make them special, I imagine many would understand that whatever they worked on at a company isn't theirs.

I'm a biochemist. If I took off with some research I've worked on not only would I be in a world of legal trouble, but I would likely never work in research ever again nor would I expect to. And I certainly wouldn't be making snide tweets like some spoiled child.

My impression from the court proceedings was that Zenimax was full of crap, as were their experts. One bit, from the wikipedia article: "Carmack took issue with one of ZeniMax's expert witnesses who testified that non-literal copying, the act of creating a program with similar functions but using different computer code, constitutes a copyright violation." In point of fact, they lost their case against Carmack.

Zenimax's argument seems to be that they were developing their own headset, which is horseshit. They weren't making one then, they're not making one now, they're never going to make one. But they saw fit to request an injunction on sales of the Rift, apparently on the basis that it was stealing sales from their mythical headset.

And this is on top of all their other shitty lawsuits. I'm usually not happy to see layoffs following an acquisition, but in this case I wouldn't mind seeing their legal department sent to the dole.
11.
 
Re: John Carmack on Microsoft's id Software Ownership
Sep 22, 2020, 05:19
11.
Re: John Carmack on Microsoft's id Software Ownership Sep 22, 2020, 05:19
Sep 22, 2020, 05:19
 
VaranDragon wrote on Sep 22, 2020, 04:09:
I wonder what a jury of programmers would have thought of it?

If they've ever actually read any of the contracts they've signed instead of just assuming they can do whatever with no repercussions because their skills make them special, I imagine many would understand that whatever they worked on at a company isn't theirs.

I'm a biochemist. If I took off with some research I've worked on not only would I be in a world of legal trouble, but I would likely never work in research ever again nor would I expect to. And I certainly wouldn't be making snide tweets like some spoiled child.
10.
 
Re: John Carmack on Microsoft's id Software Ownership
Sep 22, 2020, 04:09
10.
Re: John Carmack on Microsoft's id Software Ownership Sep 22, 2020, 04:09
Sep 22, 2020, 04:09
 
osage no onna wrote on Sep 22, 2020, 03:46:
He steals from and screws over his old employer for Facebook, destroys evidence in a hilariously clumsy way because apparently this "genius" can't shred files without googling it, and then tries to play the victim about how they're meanies who hold an unreasonable grudge against him, is my (no doubt unpopular) hot take on this.

Nope I think you're firmly in the dead center popular view on this. (And probably many other hyperbolic views that people like to have, when they remember exagareted shit going down because of an escalation between lawyers in two companies).

No one really remembers that the case was basically that JC used code that he worked on in one company, while developing software in another. A jury of your peers saw fit to declare this "theft" if I remember correctly. So yeah, your opinion is as popular as bit-titted blonde American homecoming queens.

I wonder what a jury of programmers would have thought of it?
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9.
 
Re: John Carmack on Microsoft's id Software Ownership
Sep 22, 2020, 03:46
9.
Re: John Carmack on Microsoft's id Software Ownership Sep 22, 2020, 03:46
Sep 22, 2020, 03:46
 
He steals from and screws over his old employer for Facebook, destroys evidence in a hilariously clumsy way because apparently this "genius" can't shred files without googling it, and then tries to play the victim about how they're meanies who hold an unreasonable grudge against him, is my (no doubt unpopular) hot take on this.
8.
 
Re: John Carmack on Microsoft's id Software Ownership
Sep 22, 2020, 02:43
8.
Re: John Carmack on Microsoft's id Software Ownership Sep 22, 2020, 02:43
Sep 22, 2020, 02:43
 
I wonder if this is code for: I have some new ideas for a really cool game engine. With this guy you really don't know.
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7.
 
Re: John Carmack on Microsoft's id Software Ownership
Sep 22, 2020, 00:45
7.
Re: John Carmack on Microsoft's id Software Ownership Sep 22, 2020, 00:45
Sep 22, 2020, 00:45
 
John Carmack is a tool. He complained about how bored he was working on game engines and so he goes off to make VR headsets which he discovers is even more boring. And he sold all the rights to his IPs. Still, he's a genius and I'd welcome him back to the game engine team any day of the week.
6.
 
Re: John Carmack on Microsoft's id Software Ownership
Sep 22, 2020, 00:22
6.
Re: John Carmack on Microsoft's id Software Ownership Sep 22, 2020, 00:22
Sep 22, 2020, 00:22
 
BIGtrouble77 wrote on Sep 21, 2020, 23:44:
Lead engine developer for Doom...

I mean, he was...
Avatar 55267
5.
 
Re: John Carmack on Microsoft's id Software Ownership
Sep 21, 2020, 23:44
5.
Re: John Carmack on Microsoft's id Software Ownership Sep 21, 2020, 23:44
Sep 21, 2020, 23:44
4.
 
Re: John Carmack on Microsoft's id Software Ownership
Sep 21, 2020, 22:46
Kxmode
 
4.
Re: John Carmack on Microsoft's id Software Ownership Sep 21, 2020, 22:46
Sep 21, 2020, 22:46
 Kxmode
 
RedEye9 wrote on Sep 21, 2020, 21:05:
https://youtu.be/26J0uDIGErM

Not quite. More like https://youtu.be/JTqFxMxfzkA?t=33
"Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times." - Those Who Remain by G. Michael Hopf
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3.
 
Re: John Carmack on Microsoft's id Software Ownership
Sep 21, 2020, 22:17
3.
Re: John Carmack on Microsoft's id Software Ownership Sep 21, 2020, 22:17
Sep 21, 2020, 22:17
 
Glad to see ZeniMax no longer in the blood-sucking business. They probably settled for $7.5B because Microsoft ponied it up in cash. Nice, clean deal!
It is well known that I don't make mistakes--so, if you should happen across an error in something I have written, you can be confident in the fact that *I* did not write it.
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2.
 
Re: John Carmack on Microsoft's id Software Ownership
Sep 21, 2020, 22:13
2.
Re: John Carmack on Microsoft's id Software Ownership Sep 21, 2020, 22:13
Sep 21, 2020, 22:13
 
Yes! I hope this will happen. I'd love to see Carmack back at id actually. Oculus is dead to me at this point.
1.
 
Re: John Carmack on Microsoft's id Software Ownership
Sep 21, 2020, 21:05
1.
Re: John Carmack on Microsoft's id Software Ownership Sep 21, 2020, 21:05
Sep 21, 2020, 21:05
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