Into the Black

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69.
 
Re: Into the Black
Sep 11, 2020, 12:43
69.
Re: Into the Black Sep 11, 2020, 12:43
Sep 11, 2020, 12:43
 
Foucault's Pendulum, the book by Umberto Eco.

LOL my bad, I'll have to snag a copy after looking at a snippet on google. I also appreciate that the author wants nothing to do with Michel Foucault (which as I said, his work is... not fun to read). Plus, I had seen several Foucault's pendulums before, but didn't actually know who invented them, TIL, appreciate it!
68.
 
Re: Into the Black
Sep 11, 2020, 01:24
Kxmode
 
68.
Re: Into the Black Sep 11, 2020, 01:24
Sep 11, 2020, 01:24
 Kxmode
 
jdreyer wrote on Sep 10, 2020, 22:31:
Thanks to everyone for discussion of the books and the lore. This turned into a great thread.

I think we're all fans of the series. We want this new film for the modern era to be the best it can be, which, admittedly, is difficult to tell from a three-minute teaser. Some things have given me concern (e.g., the wording change, as mentioned earlier, from "jihad" to "crusade"), but if the film does for the books what the Lord of the Rings did, then it'll be something special. Only time will tell.
"Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times." - Those Who Remain by G. Michael Hopf
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67.
 
Re: Into the Black
Sep 10, 2020, 22:33
67.
Re: Into the Black Sep 10, 2020, 22:33
Sep 10, 2020, 22:33
 
jdreyer wrote on Sep 10, 2020, 22:27:
In the meantime I will reread the Dune novels, and debate whether I want to sully my mind with the son's novels.
Well, based on the comments here it seems like the thing to do is try "The Butlerian Jihad" after you have finished the original six. And decide if 1) the writing style makes you cringe and 2) if you like the story -- then proceed accordingly...
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedies." -- Groucho Marx
66.
 
Re: Into the Black
Sep 10, 2020, 22:31
66.
Re: Into the Black Sep 10, 2020, 22:31
Sep 10, 2020, 22:31
 
Thanks to everyone for discussion of the books and the lore. This turned into a great thread.
To prevent CV-19, avoid the Serious Seven: weddings, funerals, faith-based activities, bars, gyms, house gatherings and other small events.
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65.
 
Re: Into the Black
Sep 10, 2020, 22:27
65.
Re: Into the Black Sep 10, 2020, 22:27
Sep 10, 2020, 22:27
 
MoreLuckThanSkill wrote on Sep 10, 2020, 11:15:
jdreyer wrote on Sep 9, 2020, 23:14:
The other thing is that there's a bit of a political issue with the word "jihad" given the last 40 years of relations with the Middle East. I imagine they're trying to avoid that.

There's a pretty huge political issue in the Middle East using the word 'crusade' as well. Kxmode's choice probably would have been safest for 2020, "struggle."

This movie will turn out well, I'm hoping they put it on streaming/vod/rental immediately, but they will probably try to force the theatre experience for awhile.

In the meantime I will reread the Dune novels, and debate whether I want to sully my mind with the son's novels.

Yeah, I'd pay $30 to watch it at home with the fam.
To prevent CV-19, avoid the Serious Seven: weddings, funerals, faith-based activities, bars, gyms, house gatherings and other small events.
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64.
 
Re: Into the Black
Sep 10, 2020, 20:55
64.
Re: Into the Black Sep 10, 2020, 20:55
Sep 10, 2020, 20:55
 
Dwarf-Snowninja wrote on Sep 10, 2020, 17:55:
I think I'd rather read anything by Weis/Hickman than Foucault... Discipline and Punish had some interesting points then went in multiple directions at once, and I honestly felt like I got next to nothing from the book except for being annoyed at the contradictions (which I know is something Foucault enjoys, turning things on their ear, often multiple times). Having said that, the house books aren't bad but they aren't amazing either, but I also couldn't bring myself to reread White Plague so there is that.
Foucault's Pendulum, the book by Umberto Eco.
63.
 
Re: Into the Black
Sep 10, 2020, 17:55
63.
Re: Into the Black Sep 10, 2020, 17:55
Sep 10, 2020, 17:55
 
Orogogus wrote on Sep 10, 2020, 15:51:
Mr. Tact wrote on Sep 10, 2020, 14:46:
MacLeod wrote on Sep 10, 2020, 14:42:
I think my bias was set upon reading House Atreides when it came out, and kept noticing things that didn't actually fit with previous established canon and the puerile writing... In Dune, people's inner thought dialog text was complex and often different from what they portrayed outwardly. In The BH/KJA novels it was practically always the same:

I could use a ham sandwich, Leto thought.
"I'm going to make a ham sandwich!", he said. *

I blame Herbert partially, since I know he's the one that "found" the notes, but I'm guessing a lot of what I didn't like was KJA's writing style, which about matches what I remember from his X-Files and Star Wars books.

* Not-an-actual-quote taken from the non-existent "Hamworms of Dune"
Hmm, didn't actually read the three "House" novels, but if this kind of writing existed in the novels I did read I either ignored it or didn't notice it.

I had the same reaction as MacLeod to the one I started reading. It was like a sequel to Foucault's Pendulum by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman, acclaimed authors of the Dragonlance trilogy. Or seeing it turned into an all-ages cartoon with chibi reaction shots and wacky sound effects. I can't think of anywhere else I've seen such a massive tonal shift within a book series.

I think I'd rather read anything by Weis/Hickman than Foucault... Discipline and Punish had some interesting points then went in multiple directions at once, and I honestly felt like I got next to nothing from the book except for being annoyed at the contradictions (which I know is something Foucault enjoys, turning things on their ear, often multiple times). Having said that, the house books aren't bad but they aren't amazing either, but I also couldn't bring myself to reread White Plague so there is that.
62.
 
Re: Into the Black
Sep 10, 2020, 15:51
62.
Re: Into the Black Sep 10, 2020, 15:51
Sep 10, 2020, 15:51
 
Mr. Tact wrote on Sep 10, 2020, 14:46:
MacLeod wrote on Sep 10, 2020, 14:42:
I think my bias was set upon reading House Atreides when it came out, and kept noticing things that didn't actually fit with previous established canon and the puerile writing... In Dune, people's inner thought dialog text was complex and often different from what they portrayed outwardly. In The BH/KJA novels it was practically always the same:

I could use a ham sandwich, Leto thought.
"I'm going to make a ham sandwich!", he said. *

I blame Herbert partially, since I know he's the one that "found" the notes, but I'm guessing a lot of what I didn't like was KJA's writing style, which about matches what I remember from his X-Files and Star Wars books.

* Not-an-actual-quote taken from the non-existent "Hamworms of Dune"
Hmm, didn't actually read the three "House" novels, but if this kind of writing existed in the novels I did read I either ignored it or didn't notice it.

I had the same reaction as MacLeod to the one I started reading. It was like a sequel to Foucault's Pendulum by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman, acclaimed authors of the Dragonlance trilogy. Or seeing it turned into an all-ages cartoon with chibi reaction shots and wacky sound effects. I can't think of anywhere else I've seen such a massive tonal shift within a book series.
61.
 
Re: Into the Black
Sep 10, 2020, 15:16
61.
Re: Into the Black Sep 10, 2020, 15:16
Sep 10, 2020, 15:16
 
How about this MacLeod: Up until the point where Duncan goes God-like, which I will admit has serious issues, were you okay with the story to that point? Or did you dislike the whole bringing back the characters via gholas?
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedies." -- Groucho Marx
60.
 
Re: Into the Black
Sep 10, 2020, 14:46
60.
Re: Into the Black Sep 10, 2020, 14:46
Sep 10, 2020, 14:46
 
MacLeod wrote on Sep 10, 2020, 14:42:
I think my bias was set upon reading House Atreides when it came out, and kept noticing things that didn't actually fit with previous established canon and the puerile writing... In Dune, people's inner thought dialog text was complex and often different from what they portrayed outwardly. In The BH/KJA novels it was practically always the same:

I could use a ham sandwich, Leto thought.
"I'm going to make a ham sandwich!", he said. *

I blame Herbert partially, since I know he's the one that "found" the notes, but I'm guessing a lot of what I didn't like was KJA's writing style, which about matches what I remember from his X-Files and Star Wars books.

* Not-an-actual-quote taken from the non-existent "Hamworms of Dune"
Hmm, didn't actually read the three "House" novels, but if this kind of writing existed in the novels I did read I either ignored it or didn't notice it.
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedies." -- Groucho Marx
59.
 
Re: Into the Black
Sep 10, 2020, 14:42
59.
Re: Into the Black Sep 10, 2020, 14:42
Sep 10, 2020, 14:42
 
Mr. Tact wrote on Sep 10, 2020, 11:00:
*shrug* To each their own. I thought Brian's books seemed to closely follow where "Heretics of Dune" and "Chapterhouse: Dune" left off. And yeah, perhaps the ultimate ending was a bit of a "Hollywood ending" but overall the whole storyline felt true to the original six and I thoroughly enjoyed it.

I think my bias was set upon reading House Atreides when it came out, and kept noticing things that didn't actually fit with previous established canon and the puerile writing... In Dune, people's inner thought dialog text was complex and often different from what they portrayed outwardly. In The BH/KJA novels it was practically always the same:

I could use a ham sandwich, Leto thought.
"I'm going to make a ham sandwich!", he said. *

I blame Herbert partially, since I know he's the one that "found" the notes, but I'm guessing a lot of what I didn't like was KJA's writing style, which about matches what I remember from his X-Files and Star Wars books.

* Not-an-actual-quote taken from the non-existent "Hamworms of Dune"

EDIT: Was trying to remember why I can't remember specific examples any more, then realized it came out in 1999, and that's 21 years ago... dear god I'm old.
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58.
 
Re: Into the Black
Sep 10, 2020, 14:36
58.
Re: Into the Black Sep 10, 2020, 14:36
Sep 10, 2020, 14:36
 
MacLeod wrote on Sep 10, 2020, 14:28:
Though nobody should ever read the Brian Herbert novels to begin with.
Again, I disagree. Different strokes for different folks.
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedies." -- Groucho Marx
57.
 
Re: Into the Black
Sep 10, 2020, 14:28
57.
Re: Into the Black Sep 10, 2020, 14:28
Sep 10, 2020, 14:28
 
Kxmode wrote on Sep 10, 2020, 12:12:
You do realize what you did there is like telling people just starting to watch Game of Throne who John Snow is and what Daenerys Targaryen does. May I recommend editing your post and adding the secret text? I've gone and done it for your quote.

Ah, the problems of typing up posts at work. Meant to do that, got sidetracked, then just his post. It's fixed.

Though nobody should ever read the Brian Herbert novels to begin with.
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56.
 
Re: Into the Black
Sep 10, 2020, 12:12
Kxmode
 
56.
Re: Into the Black Sep 10, 2020, 12:12
Sep 10, 2020, 12:12
 Kxmode
 
MacLeod wrote on Sep 10, 2020, 10:53:
Mr. Tact wrote on Sep 10, 2020, 09:35:
As Kx indicates, all those questions are answered in the books by Brian Herbert. I haven't read all of them, basically just the ones which effectively finish the story from the original six novels which meant reading: The Butlerian Jihad, The Machine Crusade, The Battle of Corrin, Hunters of Dune, Sandworms of Dune. I'm not sure how well Brian Herbert's novels were received but I enjoyed the ones I read. Frank certainly left us hanging on a cliff wondering what it was Duncan was "sensing". My understanding is at least some of what Brian wrote was based on story outlines written by Frank, discovered many years after Frank's death.

Books by Brian Herbert... Nope. I mind wiped those from my memory (I wish I really could). The books by him and Kevin J. Anderson are pablum at best, and directly contradictory to the originals and infuriating at their worst. I don't believe for a second that he really found the story outlines, or if he did, he didn't use thm. His "ending" to the series literally goes against the themes of the original six, with everyone coming back and Duncan becoming the prescient messiah-hero the series warned us about with a happy Paul and Chani reuiniting ending... ugh.

You do realize what you did there is like telling people just starting to watch Game of Throne who John Snow is and what Daenerys Targaryen does. May I recommend editing your post and adding the secret text? I've gone and done it for your quote.
"Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times." - Those Who Remain by G. Michael Hopf
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55.
 
Re: Into the Black
Sep 10, 2020, 11:29
Beamer
 
55.
Re: Into the Black Sep 10, 2020, 11:29
Sep 10, 2020, 11:29
 Beamer
 
Kxmode wrote on Sep 9, 2020, 23:35:
jdreyer wrote on Sep 9, 2020, 23:14:
Kxmode wrote on Sep 9, 2020, 22:40:
MacLeod wrote on Sep 9, 2020, 21:54:
Kxmode wrote on Sep 9, 2020, 21:01:
They did a regrettable thing by changing Paul's "there's a jihad coming" to "there's a crusade coming." Frank Herbert meant "jihad" as Dune's ethos is based around Islamic and Arabic themes. Plus, the word "jihad" is more fitting as it means "struggle." House Atreides is struggling to survive, as are the Fremen. It would have been better to use the word "struggle" as a word like "crusade" is loaded and has a history.

Except that he also used the word crusade in the book as well:

"... held back by no more than the Fremen and their Muad'Dib, the sleeping giant Fremen poised for their wild crusade across the universe."


and in the definitions at the end, jihad is literally defined as "a religious crusade; fanatical crusade"; even the Butlerian Jihad is referenced as the "crusade against machines", so using crusade works exactly as intended based on the original source text.

A description sure, but Paul did not speak that word. He said, "Jihad is coming." It would be like someone taking Van Gogh's "The Starry Night" and making it a day scene, or someone rebooting Star Wars and changing "the force" to "space magic" (or worse, midichlorians). Words matter, and when used in dialog, they have meaning, especially in a series like Dune with a rich tapestry based on Arabic culture and Islam. If I watch a movie based on a book, I want the film to match the source material as much as possible, and that means leaving a word like "jihad" in the movie regardless of whatever backlash they think they'll receive. Changing it is a red flag that they've decided not to stick with the books despite the impressive trailer.
The other thing is that there's a bit of a political issue with the word "jihad" given the last 40 years of relations with the Middle East. I imagine they're trying to avoid that.

Yeah, but the entire book series is based on Arabic and Islamic culture. How are they suppose to make a film without any of those elements? That would be like CD Projekt Red making Cyberpunk 2077 without jacking-in or cybernetic augmentations.

They had a choice. Remove it, which is a distraction to those familiar with the source material, or keep it, which is a distraction to those not.
Given that the target audience is significantly people that haven't seen it, it gets removed.
54.
 
Re: Into the Black
Sep 10, 2020, 11:15
54.
Re: Into the Black Sep 10, 2020, 11:15
Sep 10, 2020, 11:15
 
jdreyer wrote on Sep 9, 2020, 23:14:
The other thing is that there's a bit of a political issue with the word "jihad" given the last 40 years of relations with the Middle East. I imagine they're trying to avoid that.

There's a pretty huge political issue in the Middle East using the word 'crusade' as well. Kxmode's choice probably would have been safest for 2020, "struggle."

This movie will turn out well, I'm hoping they put it on streaming/vod/rental immediately, but they will probably try to force the theatre experience for awhile.

In the meantime I will reread the Dune novels, and debate whether I want to sully my mind with the son's novels.
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53.
 
Re: Into the Black
Sep 10, 2020, 11:00
53.
Re: Into the Black Sep 10, 2020, 11:00
Sep 10, 2020, 11:00
 
MacLeod wrote on Sep 10, 2020, 10:53:
Mr. Tact wrote on Sep 10, 2020, 09:35:
As Kx indicates, all those questions are answered in the books by Brian Herbert. I haven't read all of them, basically just the ones which effectively finish the story from the original six novels which meant reading: The Butlerian Jihad, The Machine Crusade, The Battle of Corrin, Hunters of Dune, Sandworms of Dune. I'm not sure how well Brian Herbert's novels were received but I enjoyed the ones I read. Frank certainly left us hanging on a cliff wondering what it was Duncan was "sensing". My understanding is at least some of what Brian wrote was based on story outlines written by Frank, discovered many years after Frank's death.
Books by Brian Herbert... Nope. I mind wiped those from my memory (I wish I really could). The books by him and Kevin J. Anderson are pablum at best, and directly contradictory to the originals and infuriating at their worst. I don't believe for a second that he really found the story outlines, or if he did, he didn't use them. His "ending" to the series literally goes against the themes of the original six, with everyone coming back and Duncan becoming the prescient messiah-hero the series warned us about with a happy Paul and Chani reuiniting ending... ugh.
*shrug* To each their own. I thought Brian's books seemed to closely follow where "Heretics of Dune" and "Chapterhouse: Dune" left off. And yeah, perhaps the ultimate ending was a bit of a "Hollywood ending" but overall the whole storyline felt true to the original six and I thoroughly enjoyed it.

This comment was edited on Sep 10, 2020, 14:35.
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedies." -- Groucho Marx
52.
 
Re: Into the Black
Sep 10, 2020, 10:53
52.
Re: Into the Black Sep 10, 2020, 10:53
Sep 10, 2020, 10:53
 
Mr. Tact wrote on Sep 10, 2020, 09:35:
As Kx indicates, all those questions are answered in the books by Brian Herbert. I haven't read all of them, basically just the ones which effectively finish the story from the original six novels which meant reading: The Butlerian Jihad, The Machine Crusade, The Battle of Corrin, Hunters of Dune, Sandworms of Dune. I'm not sure how well Brian Herbert's novels were received but I enjoyed the ones I read. Frank certainly left us hanging on a cliff wondering what it was Duncan was "sensing". My understanding is at least some of what Brian wrote was based on story outlines written by Frank, discovered many years after Frank's death.

Books by Brian Herbert... Nope. I mind wiped those from my memory (I wish I really could). The books by him and Kevin J. Anderson are pablum at best, and directly contradictory to the originals and infuriating at their worst. I don't believe for a second that he really found the story outlines, or if he did, he didn't use them. (secret text follows) His "ending" to the series literally goes against the themes of the original six, with everyone coming back and Duncan becoming the prescient messiah-hero the series warned us about with a happy Paul and Chani reuiniting ending... ugh.

This comment was edited on Sep 10, 2020, 14:26.
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51.
 
Re: Into the Black
Sep 10, 2020, 09:56
Cutter
 
51.
Re: Into the Black Sep 10, 2020, 09:56
Sep 10, 2020, 09:56
 Cutter
 
Burrito of Peace wrote on Sep 10, 2020, 08:46:
While it has been about five years since I last read the series, I have read the books several times and while I recall the blue within blue eyes being remarkable in their description, they weren't described as "Someone fucked up saturation values in post production".

No but someone should. That would be hilarious.
"I didn't know you had it in you. Sorry, poor choice of words." - David
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50.
 
Re: Into the Black
Sep 10, 2020, 09:43
50.
Re: Into the Black Sep 10, 2020, 09:43
Sep 10, 2020, 09:43
 
Burrito of Peace wrote on Sep 10, 2020, 08:46:
The technology that allows a more organic and weathered look to digitally rendered assets. For example, no Dune adaptation has gotten sandworms right. The Maker that Paul calls, for example, is supposed to be a Great Maker of a very advanced age yet every attempt makes the sandworms too shiny and unworn. Another are the Fremen's eyes. Every single attempt has made them look like they all have RGB lights shoved right behind the cornea. While it has been about five years since I last read the series, I have read the books several times and while I recall the blue within blue eyes being remarkable in their description, they weren't described as "Someone fucked up saturation values in post production". Even the eyes will have a difference in color nuance and texture between people. Sietches, too, need to look more naturally worn and not "insert some angled, sterile rocks on the set". Go to the desert that has canyons cut by wind and sandstorms. There's a fluidic poetry to the forms of the stone face.

Then you have the sheer scope of Dune. The scope of Dune is massive. No one has yet filmed it because it can't be.
You make excellent points about the difficulties in filming an "accurate" Dune film. However, I think it is not so much the technology doesn't exist, it is more of a cost issue. To do the series justice is extremely difficult and the complexity and scale would raise the costs so high they could never recoup the expense.
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedies." -- Groucho Marx
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